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Should Facial Recognition Cameras Be In Schools? (nyclu.org) 157

Posted by BeauHD from the time-and-a-place dept.
Facial recognition technology is making its way into schools, raising privacy concerns among parents and officials. The New York Civil Liberties Union issued a report on the matter that focuses on one public school district in particular: Western New York's Lockport School District. "News reports indicate the district plans to have the invasive and error-prone technology installed by next school year," reports NYCLU. The Union sent a letter (PDF) to the New York State Education Department urging it to consider students' and teachers' privacy in reviewing the use of surveillance technology by school districts. They also "sent a freedom of information request to the district seeking details of how and where the technology will be used as well as who will have access to the sensitive data that gets collected."

The report highlights some of the concerns/negatives of such a system. For starters, it costs millions of dollars (Lockport spent almost $4 million), which could be used for things like Wi-Fi, new computers, or 3D printers. It has the "potential to turn every step a student takes into evidence of a crime." The databases could include those used for immigration enforcement, making parents of immigrant students afraid to send their children to school for fear that they or their children could end up on ICE's radar. Last but not least, since facial recognition is notoriously inaccurate, "innocent students are likely to be misidentified and punished for things they didn't do."

Of course, it isn't all bad. Proponents of the system say it can be used to alert officials to whenever sex offenders, suspended students, fired employees, suspected gang members, or anyone else placed on a school's "blacklist" enters the premises. Do you think facial recognition cameras belong in schools?
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Should Facial Recognition Cameras Be In Schools? More

Should Facial Recognition Cameras Be In Schools?

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  • The cameras need to learn somewhere (Score:5, Funny)

    by jfdavis668 ( 1414919 ) on Friday June 22, 2018 @09:02AM (#56827752)
    Then they can graduate and get real jobs.

  • No. (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward

    No.

  • headline... (Score:4, Funny)

    by aicrules ( 819392 ) on Friday June 22, 2018 @09:10AM (#56827802)
    Should they belong? That doesn't seem like the right word....Do they belong? Should they be in schools? The headline just bugs me too much to read the rest and I'm usually not that worried about that sort of thing.

  • No we do not need this (Score:5, Insightful)

    by sjbe ( 173966 ) on Friday June 22, 2018 @09:10AM (#56827806)

    Do you think facial recognition cameras belong in schools?

    Short answer? Very rarely if ever.

    Of course, it isn't all bad. Proponents of the system say it can be used to alert officials to whenever sex offenders, suspended students, fired employees, suspected gang members, or anyone else placed on a school's "blacklist" enters the premises.

    I'm sure there are all sorts of corner cases that can be used to distract us from the big picture. Yes you can come up with unusual circumstances where facial recognition might help. But if you are worried about sex offenders or gang members coming onto school grounds you're going to need to secure the entrances and hire a guard anyway which renders the technology redundant and/or unnecessary. If a suspended student shows up I don't really see that as a huge problem worthy of violating the civil rights of the other students. Same with fired employees. This is massive and expensive overkill for what generally are non-existent or minor problems.

    The real question is whether there is a compelling state interest to justify violating civil rights (4th amendment and others) of students, staff and others. Remember that most schools in the US are government funded so this isn't private property. My take on it is that there is no compelling state interest that would justify the cost or the rights violations that would ensue.

    • Yes, it can alert officials... And then what? If it's someone intending to do harm, it's probably too late by the time the computer identifies the threat and someone capable of stopping the threat is able to respond.

  • and WHY? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by bickerdyke ( 670000 ) on Friday June 22, 2018 @09:16AM (#56827838)

    Yes.. it could be used for recognizing fired employees and suspected gang members. But why on earth are we discussing face recognition cameras FIRST and only THEN what they could be used for?

    "Hey! Let's install a few face recognition cameras at $SOMEWHERE."
    "Cool. Should those belong there? What could we do with them?"
    "Uhmm... let's think of something. Something with Sex offenders?"

    Solution in search of a problem.

    Does your school HAVE AN ACTUAL PROBLEM with suspended students or fired employee entering school grounds? If yes, could it be solved better and cheaper with a retired cop sitting at a front desk/gate? THEN we could discuss about pros and cons.

    In a related aspect..... why would ICE need face recognition? Wouldn't it be easier to check if known illegal immigrants (They have to be known if their face would be searched for by camera) have enrolled? I don't think it's possible to visit schools in the US anonymously, is it?

    • Putting camera's up in public makes no sense unless you are planning to spy on and inventory people's comings and goings. People like to be semi-anonymous in their outings.

      But in a school, if you are supposed to be there, then your identity is known exactly and for good reasons. You are a Student or a parent or teacher or staff.

      SO there's no anonymity issue.

      And since the school is responsible for keep track of students (attendance sheets, hall passes, fences are all about limiting people's whereabouts and

      • I never said that there aren't good reasons to put them there or to NOT put them there.

        All I asked for is not to promote a solution and then search for problems it may solve. So in the same line as yourself:

        And since the school is responsible for keep track of students (attendance sheets, hall passes, fences are all about limiting people's whereabouts and egress.)

        ... and is there currently a problem with that? (or at least: Does it work, is it efficient?)

        It makes total sense for them to have both cameras and face recognition.

        No. it may make sense to have cameras and face recognition. If, and only if, it solves a problem with the existing solution or is an improvement. (Please specify on the line below)

        So don't omit the actual reasoni

        • Well I agree. But I think people do think these current compliance systems are failing to alert security prior to school shootings. So there may be an unsolved problem they do address. But you are right that in general "think of the children" is the resort of people looking for a justification for some intrusion into our lives. And of course there is a the slippery slope. If it's okay there then it creates incentives for companies to push to use it elsewhere.

      • It's not just about anonymity but also privacy. And the inevitable temptation to start using this system for additional things. Picking your nose, making out in the corner behind the lockers, not showering after gym class, automatically detected and earning you an invitation to the principal's office. Maybe the creepy janitor will be following students around on the security monitors. A student is caught with some pot, investigators go over the recorded camera footage and notice you behaving oddly aroun

    • Wouldn't it be easier to check if known illegal immigrants (They have to be known if their face would be searched for by camera) have enrolled?

      That's not how the system will work. If the system sees a face that cannot be recognized, then it will automatically summon the ICE folks to scoop up the person.

      If the person cannot be recognized, the person MUST be guilty of something.

      I don't think it's possible to visit schools in the US anonymously, is it?

      Sure you can! Where do you think all the Anonymous Cowards here got their High School Diplomas . . . ?

    • The current method, at least at the schools in my area is that a teacher or principle greets the students in the morning and screens all the people entering the building. Only students can enter the school through those doors everyone else must go through the office where they are screened further. The only gap the camera could fill is if a parent becomes a sex offender / gang member and the school has not been notified and they attempt to enter the school. Giving up that much privacy for such a little amo

    • Re: (Score:3)

      by Nidi62 ( 1525137 )

      Does your school HAVE AN ACTUAL PROBLEM with suspended students or fired employee entering school grounds? If yes, could it be solved better and cheaper with a retired cop sitting at a front desk/gate? THEN we could discuss about pros and cons.

      Or even easier, use your existing resource officer, some of the countless administrators (how many vice or assistant principals do schools have now these days?), or teachers on a free period to periodically walk the hallways. 100% revenue neutral since they are already paid to be there.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by gweihir ( 88907 )

      But why on earth are we discussing face recognition cameras FIRST and only THEN what they could be used for?

      People are stupid. They somehow think these cameras can "see danger" and there the thought process already stops. Because if somebody sees the danger, they are going to do something about it, right?

  • Always the same arguments (Score:5, Informative)

    by orev ( 71566 ) on Friday June 22, 2018 @09:28AM (#56827886)
    The arguments are always the same: We need to implement a persistent and total invasion of privacy that applies to everyone at every minute of the day, "just in case" some very unlikely thing might happen in the future. The more likely scenario is the school superintendent got a nice kickback for some percentage of the cost.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by wings ( 27310 )

      I suspect some of this is driven by insurance or liability. If something bad were to happen, no matter how small the chance, this would give them yet opportunity to deflect liability in the inevitable lawsuit. - "We did all we could to prevent it"

    • this kind of small scale corruption is usually the school board. There was tons of it in the small city I lived in. The school admins don't have any power, they just do what the board tells them.

  • Wait a minute (Score:3, Interesting)

    by bmimatt ( 1021295 ) on Friday June 22, 2018 @09:29AM (#56827890)
    Why are we not resisting this panopticon bullshit? Just because we can, doesn't mean we should install cameras and facial recognition everywhere there are groups of people. Why? Because basic privacy is a human right. Who wants to trade that for "security", "think of the children" or "", can do it in their own house, garage, office, business, toilet and bedroom, on their own dime. Don't force this shit on everyone, including children, because you chose to live in fear of some bogeyman that's coming to get you. As a taxpayer, I do not fucking consent to blowing my tax money on this shit. Fix the eduction system, road, bridges and other infrastructure first, then we can talk about your spying toys. Also, watch less TV and get out every once in a while. Get a passport and leave the country when you can. The world is not as scary as the talking heads are telling you it is. Their interest is in having you glued to the screen, so the less you step outside, the happier and wealthier they are. Feel free to mod this down - I've got karma to burn.

    • Get a passport and leave the country when you can. The world is not as scary as the talking heads are telling you it is.

      It's scarier, actually ... and I have traveled the world, largely outside of hipster destinations.

      That said, that doesn't explain why we "need" facial recognition cameras in schools, in our country.

      We didn't have a school shooting problem at all until the age of modern hipsterism, so I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that something has changed, and that the problem is not the lack of facial recognition cameras.

      • Pick bugbear -> assign blame

        Nicely done Sir!

        • Pick bugbear -> assign blame

          Nicely done Sir!

          Open eyes, observe life.

          That explains all the terror of the school shootings in Laura Ingalls books ... lack of facial recognition cameras. After all, guns were ubiquitous.

    • wages aren't climbing but we're at full employment and 40% of Americans can't come up with $400 bucks (down from 60% a few years ago).

      I keep saying this but the best way to fight tyranny is with a robust middle class. People ignore injustice when they're too busy trying to keep their heads above water. It's been that way for thousands of years of recorded history. Nothing's changed except we have the capacity to take care of everybody if we choose.
  • Comment removed based on user account deletion

    • Yes, pretty much the last one. Say there are about 100,000 schools in the US, and at $300,000 per year amortized cost each for the system it would be about $30B annually to potentially warn of an event that has about a 1/100,000 chance of happening without it each year.

      It might lower crime in schools, it might do other things... but mostly it will stop things that are currently being stopped for less money. And, it is just a part of any system... what happens when it red flags-- police cars (or swat teams

    • You don't want this...

      You don't want armed teachers who can pass a CCW process...

      We can't afford to station multiple police officers strategically at every school... (most depts would see an extreme increase in manpower costs)

      So what is your solution? The status quo, which is draw a magic line around the school, declare "this be a circle of protection, no demons, ghouls or criminals shall cross its magical boundaries" and hope for the best?

      Maybe we should look at what has changed in our society between the time when we didn't have school shootings, and the time when we do.

      Sorry to get all logical. Back to you guys, "party of science" ...

    • Facial recognition isn't going to stop a person with a gun in a school. Its a non-solution to the actual problem, that has both a high price in $$$$ and both morally, and ethically.

      If you teach the kids that they are so dangerous that they need to be watched 24/7, you might just produce another school shooter.

      We need to have some introspection, why and how we create environments for our kids that exert so much pressure that they are willing to kill themselves and other people.

      I understand that people are hu

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by Hasaf ( 3744357 )

      I am a teacher, and at a Title I school. I would like to see a relevant and accessible program for training teachers to be armed through their work day, Just as those same CCW licensed, and frequently former military and law enforcement, teachers can do anywhere else.

      It feels a bit silly; when I come in on Saturday to do the weeks lesson planing documentation I am frequently coming from time at the range. Going to the range is just something I do to relax on my weekend. I get to the school and take my pisto

    • So what is your solution?

      My solution to what??

      Are you talking about suspended students coming to school? That's not a real issue as far as I know. Fired employees? The same. Sex offenders off the street are statistically non-existent. Some schools may have problems with gangs, but that seems to be a special, not default, case.

  • Should? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by p51d007 ( 656414 ) on Friday June 22, 2018 @09:34AM (#56827912)
    Don't you mean WHEN? Oh, you can bet schools will be the first to adopt these, for the "safety" of the children. Once kids grow up with that technology, as adults, they won't scoff at the idea of them being everywhere, because they are use to it. It's called CONDITIONING.

    • Cameras already are everywhere!

      There are cameras in my condo building. There are cameras watching me when I walk to the train. There are cameras at the train station. There are cameras when I enter my office building. There are cameras inside my office suite. There's cameras on my laptop and phone.

      This technology is only going to improve, cameras are going to get smaller and automated recognition will get better and better. You can't stop progress.

  • Get 'em cowed early (Score:3)

    by AdaStarks ( 2634757 ) on Friday June 22, 2018 @09:35AM (#56827918)

    If they grow up thinking it's normal, it will be.

  • sex offenders, suspended students, fired employees, suspected gang members, or anyone else placed on a school's "blacklist" enters the premises.

    Every school in my state has the doors locked and you have to buzz in. Problem solved, not cameras required.

    • Same in Europe - and they have a sign that says "do not take photos or videos of the children"

    • In some areas schools have a large number of modular classrooms that require an exterior door be left open so students can pass between the indoor and outdoor areas. The doors are monitored remotely via camera.

      • Well, in some areas, maybe they shouldn't do that? Plan better. Don't slap on an expensive, half-assed, privacy invading patch after the fact.

  • Should Facial Recognition Cameras Belong In Schools?

    No. "Should Facial Recognition Cameras Be In Schools" or "Do Facial Recognition Cameras Belong In Schools". Not trying to be pedantic, but I'd really like to think the editors have a command of the language when they construct the titles. ESPECIALLY for an article that involves education.

  • Proponents of the system say it can be used to alert officials to whenever sex offenders, suspended students, fired employees, suspected gang members, or anyone else placed on a school's "blacklist" enters the premises. Do you think facial recognition cameras belong in schools?

    More likely it will be used to alert officials whenever the system mis-identifies random students as sex offenders, suspended, fired employees, or gang members.

    In fact, if these are in jr. high and high schools, remember that you have a building full of mischievous teenagers that will probably not miss an opportunity to subtly troll the algorithms. If you want to cause disruptions without getting in trouble, what better way than to have the authorities cause the disruption for you? Couple a few of those wit

  • Lemony snickets says... (Score:3)

    by MindPrison ( 864299 ) on Friday June 22, 2018 @09:58AM (#56828054) Journal

    ...that this is an excellent investment.

    Computer says:

    This is NOT Count Olaf.
    This is NOT Count Olaf....neeext
    This is NOT Count Olaf...

  • I'm not explicitly against this, there are already cameras in most schools in Erie and Niagara county anyway so adding the facial recognition is kind of an inevitable next step. The problem with this move is that this is an unconscionable waste of money. Lockport N.Y. has 20K people, the high school has less than 2K students enrolled with something like a 10-1 student teacher ratio. My point is that this isn't some high density area where kids are crammed 30 to a classroom and the teacher barely know their

    • So the idea that this is where we want to crank up security is really what has people around here laughing.

      Well, maybe the mayor has an old buddy who sells security cameras . . . ?

      . . . and the two of them are laughing to the bank . . .

  • Is it a public area? Mostly. Is there a reasonable expectation of privacy? Not really.

    Visual recognition is actually not as error-prone as the ACLU would like to believe, and it's substantially better than eyewitnesses. There probably aren't a lot of benefits to installing it, but there aren't really a lot of negatives either.

  • Make sure the person is listed on other databases in the nation. A legal citizen enjoys a free education. Illegal citizens using fake paperwork get detected.
    So a smart person does not take a test for another person.
    A student takes their exams and a university can be confident the results match the student.
    A university can be assured their intake of students can study, all passed the same tests to a set standard and are educatable.
    This will ensure every student that graduates from a US university got
  • One good use would be to make certain that the real person is taking a major exam like an SAT. Keep in mind that surveillance not only keeps tract of where you are but also keeps track of where you are not. We know of many cases that have very odd outcomes and often find the wrong party as guilty. Imagine the OJ trial if a really good surveillance system was focused on that spot. There is a belief among some that a fourth party was the bad actor. OJ now says that he was struck from behind and went dow

    • "One good use would be to make certain that the real person is taking a major exam like an SAT."

      Indeed. While the rest of the civilized world just uses an old-school ID card for that.
      I guess that's not expensive enough for US schools, that swim in money apparently.

  • Last but not least, since facial recognition is notoriously inaccurate, "innocent students are likely to be misidentified and punished for things they didn't do."

    People aren't convicted based on "the camera says it's John Smith"; rather, the camera says "the person committing the crime might be John Smith" and then real people compare actual photos of John Smith against the pictures taken by the camera.

  • afraid of what? (Score:4)

    by ooloorie ( 4394035 ) on Friday June 22, 2018 @10:45AM (#56828386)

    The databases could include those used for immigration enforcement, making parents of immigrant students afraid to send their children to school for fear that they or their children could end up on ICE's radar.

    Why would immigrants be afraid of ICE? As an immigrant, you're supposed to carry your green card at all times.

    • Re: (Score:1)

      by Anonymous Coward

      Yeah, this is a crazy situation.

      My wallet was stolen, along with my physical green card (which, as you state, you have to carry with you at all times.) It cost $500 to get replaced, involved going to an in-person interview at a DHS office forty miles from my house, and took about four months end to end.

      I have never been asked to present my green card while being in the US. Ever. (OTOH, I am white and live in the North-East, so I have all the privileges associated with that.)

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by mjwx ( 966435 )

        My wallet was stolen, along with my physical green card (which, as you state, you have to carry with you at all times.) It cost $500 to get replaced, involved going to an in-person interview at a DHS office forty miles from my house, and took about four months end to end.

        Its the same with my Biometric Residency Permit (BRP) here in the UK. It costs £500 to replace.

        Fortunately I don't have to show my "papers" to any random plod who stops me (which has never happened to me here... not even a random breath test and feck knows I'm not a slow driver). If a Bobby were to ask to see my residency status I'm sure it'll be fine if I pop down the station with it later (my address is on my UK license anyway), I'm also pretty sure immigration checks are not in the remit o

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by Nidi62 ( 1525137 )

      Why would immigrants be afraid of ICE? As an immigrant, you're supposed to carry your green card at all times.

      Unless you were convicted of a misdemeanor charge [nytimes.com] 18 years ago or even just speaking Spanish [nypost.com].

      • And tell me, as a legal, law-abiding immigrant myself: why should either of those two stories scare me?

    • Or perhaps the author thinks that it's morally acceptable for illegals to send their children to public school?

  • Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)

    by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Friday June 22, 2018 @10:50AM (#56828418)
    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  • I'm guessing this idea is born from the ashes of the recent school shootings and is a technological attempt to identify and / or alert about individuals on campus that do not belong. Ex students / staff, parents, contractors, etc.

    I would guess that visitors to the school would have to check in via the main office to get their photo taken so they can be entered into the system as a temporary guest otherwise the system would send an alert about a non-authorized individual once the camera is unable to match t

  • "sex offenders, suspended students, fired employees, suspected gang members, or anyone else placed on a school's "blacklist" enters the premises."

    Why not just have a list of people _allowed_ to be there, then the rest of the 7 billion people will raise an alert if they try to sneak in.

    Unless they are afraid that students who dolled up, discovered Emo or Punk will trigger an alarm.

  • Are cameras "magic shields" from danger now? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by bjdevil66 ( 583941 ) on Friday June 22, 2018 @11:43AM (#56828760)

    In a generation, we've gone from, "Cameras everywhere are Big Brother!", to, "Cameras are a key tool to increasing personal safety!"

    I've seen people pull out cameras as if they're going to stop people from saying or doing something, as if they are some kind of bulletproof vest that can stop others from doing them harm. In reality, they're as useless as a car window in stopping a murderer from shooting you with a gun. I wouldn't be surprised if people being chased by a killer would opt to pull out a cellphone rather than pick up a club to defend themselves.

    "I'll video you and shame you on (fill in social media outlet here)!!" Shame doesn't stop someone that doesn't share your fears and doubts.

    You'd think we would've learned from the UK's ring of steel and general surveillance environment (bad things still happen to people there).

    • Consider how many people have been "chased by a killer" outside of cheesy horror movies. Now consider how many people have been assaulted.

      Your point might stand up better in Mexico, or Brazil, or wherever the murder capital of the world is. But if we're talking sociological trends in the US or a developed nation, people whipping out a phone in a conflict is probably the tactically sound move most of the time. A camera is better for de-escalation over a weapon. You have to run into a REAL psycho, alone, to

    • The cameras are there so they can identify people after the fact. Ideally they could also stop events in progress, but you need to have someone ready to respond.

      A local news reporter out cycling was recently found near a Chicago lakefront bicycle path with her neck broken [wttw.com]. There was no sign of an accident, scuffed turf, etc. Since there are no cameras along this path there's no way to tell what happened. Assaults happen every week along this path.

      Surveillance cameras in public places and institutions

  • We don't need to be treating schoolchildren like convicts in prison. School is tough enough an experience for some of them as-is, socially speaking, we do NOT need to be adding shit like this.

    • For the record, while I think Rick is a dick, we're on the same page here and I agree with him.

      • Haters gonna hate. xD
        I don't go along with the group-think, and I apologize to no one for that.
        Well-behaved people rarely make the history books anyway. xD

  • No I'm not going to train my children to live in a dystopian hellscape without privacy. They're not prisoners, and principle aren't wardens, and school should not be a panopticon [wikipedia.org]. While the school system teaches an important lesson about how to deal with authority, the authority figure should not be an authoritarian tyarant with complete knowledge.

  • With 4M you could create your own company to implement a brand new image recognition software from scratch. With open libraries and a programmer I could do it for $10k and $1000 per camera for hardware, installation and wiring.

  • Absolutely! We should install dozens of these fine devices in every school.

    Right after we finish installing a moat, ramparts, pillboxes, a tiger trap, barbed wire, electric fences, an artillery battery, a minefield, anti-aircraft missiles, and a billboard-sized sign reading "authorized personnel only - all others will be shot on sight".

  • NYC schools - hell yes. Every one of them. They need to be secure and NYC is full of crazy people statistically. In a rural school, not so much. If they have a problem, sure. Bring them in. In Parkland Florida where they had that whacko student that they refused to discipline due to the stupid Chicago no-discipline model - sure. Could have saved lives.

    We have technology, let's use it.

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