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New Telemetry Suggests Shot-Down Drone Was Higher Than Alleged 528

AmiMoJo writes: The pilot of the drone shot down Sunday evening over a Kentucky property has now come forward with video seemingly showing that the drone wasn't nearly as close as the property owner made it out to be. The data also shows that it was well over 200 feet above the ground before the fatal shots fired. The shooter, meanwhile, continues to maintain that the drone flew 20 feet over a neighbour's house before ascending to "60 to 80 [feet] above me."
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New Telemetry Suggests Shot-Down Drone Was Higher Than Alleged

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  • Really? (Score:5, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 02, 2015 @09:34AM (#50233553)

    You would have trouble seeing such a drone at 'well over 200 feet above ground' let alone shooting it down with a shotgun.

    • by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

      TFA mentions that they asked an expert who was able to confirm that the shot was possible.

      • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

        by Anonymous Coward

        Have you guys ever shot a shotgun??? I call BS on this 200ft claim and the 'expert'.

        Something that small, if he hit it at 200ft, he either got REALLY lucky or fired A BUNCH of times (and got lucky).

        Even birdshot is only effective at 40yds (120ft for you metric weenies (because math is hard)).

        • That's 200 feet, not 200 meters. HUGE difference.

        • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

          by Anonymous Coward

          Even birdshot is only effective at 40yds (120ft for you metric weenies (because math is hard)).

          Feet aren't metric. Way to perpetuate the arrogant+ignorant american stereotypes....

          • The article mentions "200 feet" and "60 to 80 [feet]", not yards. The OP is making a joke that metric weenies either don't know the conversion from yards to feet, or that they are incapable of multiplying/dividing by 3 to convert between feet and yards.

            Way to perpetuate the 'metric weenies have no sense of humor' stereotype.

            • by Cederic ( 9623 )

              No, we have a sense of humour. It's altogether more civilised and allows for nuance, subtlety and more advanced forms of wit.

              All of which were sadly absent from the alleged joke about weenies.

        • by Above ( 100351 )

          The Military [yuku.com] claims 50 yards effective range, and up to 80 yards lethality with the proper load. If this guy was sporting 00 or 000 buck rather than bird shot a kill on a fragile drone at 200' is not at all impossible.

          • by kybred ( 795293 )

            Speakin of military, Hillview, KY is only a few miles from Fort Knox [wikipedia.org]. He should be careful what he shoots at, it might shoot back.

          • by chihowa ( 366380 )

            If he was using buckshot, he'd have nine (or fewer) pellets to work with. At 200', with all of the spread in the pattern at that distance, he'd be extremely lucky to hit a tiny quadcopter. The pellets may retain the energy to break the quadcopter, but the likelihood of him actually hitting it is even less likely.

          • He'd be better off with the bird shot. Any rotor impact with a pellet is going to drop a quad copter and the thing will be bouncing around to and fro in the air to improve the chance of it hitting your pellets. If the shot is more or less straight up you even get a second chance when the pellets come back down. Bird shot would make for a nice little cloud floating in the vicinity of the copter.

            People are so used to thinking in terms of the power the shot will have when it hits the target. In this case it ju
        • by xdor ( 1218206 )

          I have a drone -- I don't know if his version works different, but the telemetry is relative to the drone's take-off. The drone does not have topographical data to determine actual altitude from ground obstacles!

          Someone correct me if I'm wrong -- but all my tests with my drone flying over changes in terrain (say a hill a hundred feet high) changes the telemetry altitude by zero -- it's all relative to the home point.

          Regardless the guy was a pretty good shot to take it down if they were just doing a fly-ov

          • by rioki ( 1328185 )

            Unfortunately your opinion is not correct. The FAA asserts the right to airspace, including a few feet above the ground. There was the case United States v. Causby where military aircraft where flying at 83 above his farm and disturbing his sheep. The ruling was that the military did not violate his fifth amendment right, but still was compensated on the ground of the noise and commotion made by the planes.

            The operator was flying the drone in class G airspace and had all the right to it. The safe flying alt

        • Re:Really? (Score:4, Informative)

          by shaitand ( 626655 ) on Sunday August 02, 2015 @10:26PM (#50237691) Journal
          Have you ever played with a drone like this? You don't have to blow the thing up, smacking it with one finger in a casual swing is enough to crash one. It's hard enough to keep them up without any one trying to impact them.

          At 200 ft your shot would be a nice little cloud and any of those pellets hitting the drone would be enough to take it down.

          Think a target about 8x the size of a clay and far far more fragile. The actual body isn't more fragile but the flight stability is.
      • I think the debre on the ground proves that.
      • Re:Really? (Score:4, Interesting)

        by serbanp ( 139486 ) on Sunday August 02, 2015 @09:57AM (#50233637)

        And you believe this? Even with good shotshell and a patterned gun, it's very unlikely to score a buckshot kill at more than 40-45 yards away. Hard to do for a stationary deer, impossible with a drone in the air.

        The telemetry was either faked or, as an astute AC explained already, was showing the altitude at the launch point, which may be lower than the "trigger-happy" guy's backyard.

        It simply doesn't pass the smell test.

        • Re:Really? (Score:4, Informative)

          by AmiMoJo ( 196126 ) on Sunday August 02, 2015 @10:39AM (#50233825) Homepage Journal

          This [shotgunspo...gazine.com] seems to suggest that at 200ft the type of shot used here would be quite painful. Granted that isn't firing upwards, but even so it should be enough to damage a small, plastic drone. A broken prop would be enough to bring it down.

        • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

          by Anonymous Coward

          I'm a competitive trap shooter who dabbles in what is called handicap trap shooting. Basically you shoot a normal round, then move back several yards to make it harder based on how well you scored in that first round. A 2 yard increase in distance has a HUGE effect on your ability to hit a target. It almost feels like a different sport, such are the changes you must make in your shooting habits.

          Even if you are making your own shells and putting 1 and 1/8th ounces of powder in (which for many shooter

      • by bws111 ( 1216812 )

        No, it doesn't. It says they showed a chart from an online hunting course. Said chart shows 'maximum projectile range'. It does not say that is when shooting straight up, or that there is enough energy left at that distance to do any harm.

        • The shot doesn't have to have much more than potential energy to break the thing. A prop hitting a stationary metal ball is destructive enough (to the prop)

      • That wasn't an expert, it was a lawyer referring to a web site. Those are also maximum horizontal ranges, not maximum effective range vertically. It may still be possible, but this doesn't prove it.

      • Ars asked an attorney who is an avid drone advocate, not an expert.

        The lawyer pointed them to a website w/a chart listing the maximum effective range for various sizes of shot. Even if the chart is accurate, it lists max. effective ranges, as in horizontal distance, and not a max. effective heights. It's likely the numbers are for a nominally horizontal shot The slide lists neither a trajectory, nor a source for its numbers.

        Height, potential energy, etc

    • by Above ( 100351 )

      I beg to differ, and have a great example.

      Trap shooting [oxfordfishandgame.org] is where a shotgun is used to hit a clay "pidgin". They are about 5" in diameter, way smaller than most drones, and moving at relatively high speed. The shooter stands 16-27 yards from the launch point of the clay, and typically hits them about 15-25 yards downstream of the launcher. That means they are regularly hitting a 5" target at 150' away, the best shooters with basically 100% accuracy.

      A larger, slow moving drone at 200', hardly a challenge

      • Re:Really? (Score:4, Insightful)

        by I'm New Around Here ( 1154723 ) on Sunday August 02, 2015 @10:57AM (#50233947)

        Two easy points of dispute. A) They use guns made/modified specifically to shoot that target. A standard shotgun some guy has behind his door for protection is going to have a very different pattern. B) How do you know this guy is such a crack shot?

        And a third easy point, that has been mentioned many times above, is that shooting vertically, at a drone above you, limits the maximum range of the shot.

        • Re:Really? (Score:4, Interesting)

          by O('_')O_Bush ( 1162487 ) on Sunday August 02, 2015 @11:23AM (#50234055)
          A) No, they don't. They often use shotguns modified to be light and pointable if they are professional competitors, but most trap shooters use the same shotguns they would go hunting with. They also use chokes that are modified or less (as in, broad spread, less range) and the patterns are no different than any other commercial off the shelf shotgun (circular). All of my shotguns wear full chokes, which have much greater range, especially in a gun not designed for trap shooting (longer barrel). Also, trap shooters use reduced recoil (AKA, reduced range, reduced velocity, reduced power) loads and their shotguns typically only hold two shells. Basically, this argument boils down to, if a trap shotgun can reach, a hunting shotgun can reach MUCH MORE EASILY.
          B) Trap shooters are shooting one shell at a very fast moving target. This guy just had to shoot a stationary target with one of his several shells.

          As for your third point, a shotgun pellet at 5 grains and 0.05 BC (typical for a light sphere), loses half of its 1200 fps velocity within 200 yards (600 feet), and does that between a quarter and a half of a second due to aero drag. It doesn't matter which way you shoot the shot, because in that tiny time span, gravity at its very weak 9.8 m/s^2 doesn't affect that hardly at all, as it makes up less than 10% of the velocity change.
  • by Anonymous Coward

    The 200 ft displayed on video is based on position where drone was turned on and calibrated, based on a barometric altimeter.
    Was the house on a hill or small rise i comparison to where the flght started? Then yes, drone was lower.
    This took only a few minutes research of the drone manuals and the tech support forums.

  • by DoofusOfDeath ( 636671 ) on Sunday August 02, 2015 @09:47AM (#50233595)

    Is why a long list of seemingly obvious criminal charges hasn't been brought against the drone operator.

    I'd start with whatever laws relate to peeping Toms, disturbing the peace, and perhaps harassment.

    • by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

      The telemetry shows that it was too high to be "peeping", and didn't linger over the guy's property before he shot it down. Might be fake of course, but more generally speaking my understanding is that it's something of a grey area just how low aircraft can fly over property before it becomes a legal issue.

      If the shooter had thought to take a photo of the drone (there must have been a few smartphones around) he could at least try to press charges, but by shooting first he had left the drone operator with th

      • I find the interesting part to be the telemetry data is all that is being released. Most of the drones like the one in question that I am aware of record the entire flight as well as transmit it back for live viewing. Why is there non of this footage over this guys house available?

        I mean the easiest way to refute the claim that the drone was hovering over his house and peeping and all that would be to release the flight video itself and show that for a fact it did not do any of these things. The only thing

      • by Rockoon ( 1252108 ) on Sunday August 02, 2015 @03:25PM (#50235635)

        The telemetry shows that it was too high to be "peeping"

        The telemetry also shows that it was at -45.9 feet when it crashed (see the video.) We can presume the telemetry is accurate and it crashed so hard that it buried itself 46 feet under the ground, or we can assume that this "telemetry" is bullshit.

        You seem to want to presume accurate telemetry even when the evidence is right in front of you that it isnt accurate. Why is that? Why have you stopped giving a shit about accuracy and veracity? What motivation do you have to be willfully ignorant?

        • The telemetry also shows that it was at -45.9 feet when it crashed (see the video.) We can presume the telemetry is accurate and it crashed so hard that it buried itself 46 feet under the ground, or we can assume that this "telemetry" is bullshit.

          Or the telemetry altitude was referenced to a zero point 46 feet higher than point it crashed. Or the altimeter was damaged when the drone was shot.

  • by Anonymous Coward

    Umm, no. Doesn't really change anything.

  • by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 02, 2015 @09:50AM (#50233605)

    You are all drones. Drones make Rrrrrrrrrrrr rrrrrrrrrrr rrrrrrrr. What do drones make? Rrrrrrrrrrr rrrrrr rrrrrrr make the drones. YOU DRONES!

  • by geggam ( 777689 ) on Sunday August 02, 2015 @10:00AM (#50233655)

    ... simply put at that range ( 200 ft ) any pellets the size of #6 or smaller would simply not have the ballistic energy.

    2 ply cardboard wouldnt be penetrated at 200 feet.

    Source : Years of hunting and shooting with 12 guages

    • by X0563511 ( 793323 ) on Sunday August 02, 2015 @10:13AM (#50233707) Homepage Journal

      Go grab a model aircraft. Spin up the prop, and drop a piece of shot into the prop.

      You'll probably end up with a broken prop, without any appreciable ballistic energy being involved.

    • by DRJlaw ( 946416 ) on Sunday August 02, 2015 @10:18AM (#50233737)

      You're simply wrong.

      Source: actual ballistics tables [shotgunspo...gazine.com]

      60 yards is 180 ft -- 20 ft short of the target distance. 500 FPS will still hurt quite a bit.

      Maximum range with "no" ballistic energy is 200 yards, and we're talking about smaller birdshot (#7.5-8), not #6.

      Sign a liability waiver, stand 200 ft away, and allow me to blast away at you with Remington 12 guage #6 if you're so sure of yourself...

      • He was using #8 shot. The range with a 30 degree muzzle elevation for #8 is 100 yards. If the drone was at 200 feet altitude, and that much downrange (angle would be 45 degrees) the distance would be just under 100 yards -- I think if the altitude of 200 is correct (big if) these tables show that it was at the very limit of the range of #8 shot. I think it's far more likely that the drone was at around 100 feet or less above ground, and within 100 to 150 feet of the shooter. Even aviation grade barometric altimeters are often out by as much as 25 feet, and must be set for the ambient pressure (which drifts).
    • by ameline ( 771895 )
      He was using #8 birdshot. The lead of #8 shot are *tiny* little balls. -- around 1mm in size. I've been hit by falling #8 shot -- feels like light rain. It loses it's energy to air resistance very quickly. 200 feet of altitude, plus around that much downrange distance makes the range around 280 -- it seems unlikely for #8 shot to do much damage at that range. Altitude is hard to measure with accuracy without using a radar altimeter (calibrated at that) -- GPS is +- 100 feet at best in altitude. Aviation g
      • by ameline ( 771895 )
        Ok, my size estimate is slightly off -- standard US #8 birdshot is 0.09" in diameter, or 2.2mm, each weighing around 69 milligrams. (assuming lead)
      • by atfrase ( 879806 )
        IIRC, the police responding to the incident obligingly gave the damaged drone back to its owner, rather than confiscating it as evidence. So if the shooter is lying and the drone was high up, then that video should come out eventually to corroborate the operator; on the other hand, if the operator is lying and the drone was much lower, then the police have allowed the operator to erase that video and we'll never see it.
  • terminology (Score:5, Insightful)

    by jsepeta ( 412566 ) on Sunday August 02, 2015 @10:02AM (#50233661) Homepage

    Is it a drone, capable of flying by itself, or is it a radio controlled vehicle that must be piloted?

    Was it lingering over the guy's property or passing through his airspace?

    Clearly the pilot did not take evasive action. Being able to shoot it makes it seem like he was pestering the homeowner.

  • Where is the video from the drone itself? If you know the angle of view of the camera, and can measure the distance between actual points on the ground, you can PRECISELY calculate the height of the drone from that video. Telemetry data can be faked. The live video of the incident itself couldn't be nearly as easily.

  • It's the *sky*. Arguing that someone lied about their perception when distance becomes very subjective is a fool's errand. 200 feet is still pretty close. Close enough to shoot down with a shotgun apparently.
    • by osu-neko ( 2604 )

      200 feet is still pretty close.

      Yes, but if I shoot someone's car who parked is on the street 200 ft outside my property and assert it was my right because he was parked "too close" to my property, the law is not going to consider "pretty close" to be close enough.

      Airspace in general is the public domain. At what point it above your property it becomes yours is a legal grey area.

  • What's the deal? (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Ol Olsoc ( 1175323 )
    With all the fear?

    In addition, this fear is too fearful to even look like fear - it's masked with goofy bravado. It's like the friend's husband who sleeps with a .45 under the pillow, no safety engaged. (takes time to take it off yaknow) Brags about it. The friend who keeps one in every room, and vehicle and a shorty strapped to his ankle. That's fear

    This Tennessee case is just anther example of that fear. "Oh a Drone! Must be th' Guvmint spying on me, or maybe a homo looking for a place to marry hi

    • How you gonna protect yourself from illegal aliens and skittle brandishing chocolate people if you aren't allowed to have your Parrot packin'?

      Wow, the stereotyping is strong with you. You just can't live with the idea that people would like laws to be followed, want to be protected from aggressive thugs, and don't want their private property being violated and invaded. It's people like you that made me leave the Democratic party (I'm and independent now).

    • Re:What's the deal? (Score:4, Interesting)

      by urbanriot ( 924981 ) on Sunday August 02, 2015 @01:48PM (#50235029)
      No fear and none of your left or right wing BS, many of us just don't like it, we don't like drones hovering around our homes engaging in actions that aren't as obvious as a human's actions. We have the ability to interact with people that trespass on our property but we don't have the ability to discern the functionality of a drone hovering around us. Furthermore, I don't feel safe with the idea of an unlicensed heavy object falling from the sky and harming children... or me for that matter.
  • by bradley13 ( 1118935 ) on Sunday August 02, 2015 @10:33AM (#50233799) Homepage

    I wonder that the video and data didn't go up immediately. A couple of days is enough to edit the telemetry and video. Maybe they're honest, maybe they're not. However, it seems really unlikely that someone would be massively offended by a drone 70 meters up.

    If they were going to file charges against anyone, it was really stupid for the police not to impound the drone as evidence.

  • There have been studies done before asking average people to estimate how high an object is in the sky (generally balloons or kites) and the estimates were generally awful. Even judging the difference between 60 and 200 feet is generally beyond the range of what most humans can comprehend in vertical distance.
  • And how do they know the telemetry hasn't been altered - it might be trivial to do.

  • Probably the best solution to this is to get a drone yourself for your home and equip it in a way in which it can take down other drones. It shouldn't take much: a trailing net, a trailing string, or even just dropping something.

  • 200 feet up is a LONG way for most bird loads in a shotgun, even straight up with no extra slant distance. I can't think of any goose loads that would carry enough energy to drop a metal and plastic drone at that distance. They struggle to take down a soft-skinned animal at 150 feet.

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