Counterpoint: Why Edward Snowden May Not Deserve Clemency 573
Hugh Pickens DOT Com writes "Fred Kaplan, the Edward R. Murrow press fellow at the Council on Foreign Relation, writes at Slate that if Edward Snowden's stolen trove of beyond-top-secret documents had dealt only with the domestic surveillance by the NSA, then some form of leniency might be worth discussing. But Snowden did much more than that. 'Snowden's documents have, so far, furnished stories about the NSA's interception of email traffic, mobile phone calls, and radio transmissions of Taliban fighters in Pakistan's northwest territories; about an operation to gauge the loyalties of CIA recruits in Pakistan; about NSA email intercepts to assist intelligence assessments of what's going on inside Iran; about NSA surveillance of cellphone calls 'worldwide,' an effort that 'allows it to look for unknown associates of known intelligence targets by tracking people whose movements intersect.' Kaplan says the NYT editorial calling on President Obama to grant Snowden 'some form of clemency' paints an incomplete picture when it claims that Snowden 'stole a trove of highly classified documents after he became disillusioned with the agency's voraciousness.' In fact, as Snowden himself told the South China Morning Post, he took his job as an NSA contractor, with Booz Allen Hamilton, because he knew that his position would grant him 'to lists of machines all over the world [that] the NSA hacked.' Snowden got himself placed at the NSA's signals intelligence center in Hawaii says Kaplan for the sole purpose of pilfering extremely classified documents. 'It may be telling that Snowden did not release mdash; or at least the recipients of his cache haven't yet published — any documents detailing the cyber-operations of any other countries, especially Russia or China,' concludes Kaplan. 'If it turned out that Snowden did give information to the Russians or Chinese (or if intelligence assessments show that the leaks did substantial damage to national security, something that hasn't been proved in public), then I'd say all talk of a deal is off — and I assume the Times editorial page would agree.'"
Technically correct (Score:5, Interesting)
The NSA's operations abroad are not against the organization charter, and are, therefor, not against the law.
Some of the revelations, however, while detailing operations that are technically legal, do paint the organzation in a light that shows it to be an unchecked body with too much power and not enough supervision.
The specific examples listed in the article may not be under the above category. Still, it is not clear who did the sifting through and filtering the material to decide what gets published. If Snowden did none of it, than those can be chalcked down to "collateral damage". If the bulk of the material is relevant for a whistle blower, I'd still go with clemancy.
Shachar
P.s.
Not that I, as a non-US citizen, or even resident, have a real say on the matter.
Unknown associates... (Score:4, Interesting)
about NSA surveillance of cellphone calls 'worldwide,' an effort that 'allows it to look for unknown associates of known intelligence targets by tracking people whose movements intersect.'
Yes, it's essential to national security that we "look for", identify, and if necessary kill, any and all "unknown associates" of Ms. Merkel!
It doesn't prove Snowden is in the right, but when the NSA's proponents can't string together one paragraph summarizing the "good" programs Snowden's compromised without this sort of thing, you can be pretty damn sure NSA is so far wrong it's not funny.
Fred Kaplan is an idiot (Score:5, Interesting)
The rights enumerated in (but NOT granted by) the US Constitution are BASIC HUMAN RIGHTS to which every human being is entitled.
Every human being on Earth has a fundamental human right against unreasonable searches and seizures, unlawful arrests, and to be free of total government snooping and over-reaching police actions.
Exposing our violation of the rights of practically the entire Earth population was the right thing to do. Snowden deserves more than clemency. He deserves a sainthood.
Does USA care about the rest of the world? (Score:5, Interesting)
It may have been illegal according to current American law for Snowden to reveal, that USA is treating every other country in the world as an enemy. But you have got to ask if it really is Snowden, who is wrong here. It could be that it is Snowden who is right, and on the other side, we have the law, the NSA, and the government who are all wrong.
I'd say it is up to the population of the USA to decide whose side they want to be on.
If the population of the USA thinks it is OK that NSA is spying on all other countries as if they were an enemy of USA, then the population should make this point very clear. In that case Snowden should never go back to the USA, but there will surely be countries of another opinion, in which Snowden can live as a free man.
If OTOH the population of the USA thinks that the NSA has gone too far, then they should also make this point very clear. If it is only the small elite in power, who consider the spying to be OK, then the population need to replace them with somebody who acts in the interest of the population. In this case it is of little importance, if the NSA acted within the law, the law need to be updated to make it absolutely clear, that this is no longer legal. And Snowden's actions should retroactively be made legal.
I don't know what the majority of the population of USA thinks about that question, but I think the world deserves to know. Does the population of USA think it is OK for USA to be spying on every other country?
Re:Chinese or Russian Operations? (Score:3, Interesting)
How do you know what he did or did not copy? After investigating for half a year the spooks themselves can even agree on how much documents he actually took, let alone which ones. Also, as far as it is known, Snowden doesn't control the documents and he isn't deciding what will be and what will not be released. That's what the journalists do.
I'm not sure why leaking informations about spy operations from Russia or China should be some sort of test of Snowden's intentions. It looks more like Mr. Murrow is no longer able to hypocrytically lecture the rest of the world about freedom. The soft power gun is badly damaged, so he wants to partially mitigate his PR problem by showing that US is doing the same as China and Russia.
Which is why you can be pretty sure there aren't any massive collect-it-all programs done by Russia or China on the scale of what US is doing. If they were, US government would told us long time ago and we would not need Snowden for it. After all they had no problem to hypocritically accuse China and Russia of hacking, bugging and all the other things they themselves are doing.
Re: freedom (Score:5, Interesting)
And suppose he tried that, he ended up in jail, and the government was somehow able to spin damage control and minimize his efforts? You make some good points, but he took the most realistic path of options to make sure he didn't go down in vain. I must admit, when this all started, I thought it would blow over fairly quickly. Most events like this have. In the end, the only thing that America responds to is money. That Snowden is costing corporations money here is the best thing to happen to America since apple pie. The Constitution is gone and our Rights are a joke, but cost corporations some money, and maybe we will see baby steps taken in the right direction.
Credibility (Score:5, Interesting)
As far as the intent argument goes. We have know all kinds of abuses have been happening for a long time. Courts have issued rules on insane standings rules that say things like "you can't know your right were violated" so you can't sue, which means you can't find out through discovery.
So someone like Snowden who is on the outside would have had little choice but to intentionally infiltrate the NSA or just keep bending over and taking it like everyone else. It might be more fair to describe him as an activist than a whistle-blower, but morally I think there is plenty of equivalence there.
The issue about disclosing the stuff that isn't likely to be illegal or outside charter is that it was probably necessary for credibility. If the only stuff he handed over was heavily filtered and redacted the only questions that would have been raised would be "why should we believe any of this is authentic, the courts will never let us verify any of it?" and "What aren't you telling us?" It isn't as if he posted the whole trove on 4chan or something he leaked to (mostly) responsible press agencies who have always played the role of filter for this kind of thing in western democracy. I think the wider leaks though perhaps unfortunate with respect to some national interests were quite necessary and done as responsibly as possible.
All and all the arguments against clemency pretty much boil down to "he threatened order, and we can't have that" Which when it comes to military and intelligence personal and civilian employes of similar nature is not an argument entirely without merit; but the NSA is so out of hand a wrench any smaller would have done nothing to even slow the gears. At some point the system gets to broken to work with in it.
Re:Chinese or Russian Operations? (Score:4, Interesting)
He'd have access to what the NSA stole from Russia or China.
The biggest concern with any Russian or Chinese documents is what the NSA's having them reveals about the American intelligence capabilities and operations. A public release of such documents, while embarrassing to Russia and China, might be even more damaging to US intelligence, and might possibly expose people working for the US.
But a *public* release hasn't happened. Instead, Snowden spent several days in the Russian consulate before being allowed into Russia. What did he do to convince the Russians to let him in? If *you* were the Russian foreign ministry, how would *you* handle this? It's a legitimate question.
If Snowden is to be pardoned, it has to be done on the basis that the good he did in revealing the NSA domestic spying program outweighs the damage he has done to our foreign intelligence, which may well be the case.
Re:What's good for the goose (Score:5, Interesting)
You know what would really be effective at stopping Al Qaeda? STOP FUNDING AND ARMING THEM!
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/sep/20/kuhner-how-obama-arms-al-qaeda/ [washingtontimes.com]
It's no secret that the US and Saudi Arabia have been giving Al Qaeda weapons and money when they do mercenary work. Yet somehow no one wants to talk about how to prevent Saudis from funneling money into Al Qaeda.
Let's face it, Al Qaeda is the real life Emmanuel Goldstein: controlled opposition used to justify all the totalitarian legislation that the people in power want to impose.
Shadow Play (Score:3, Interesting)
I am convinced that Mr. Snowden represents more than himself, and that he has help and assistance from a faction or factions inside the organs of state security that do not like the way things are headed.
This piece by Mr. Kaplan clearly represents a bit of propaganda from the other side, the elements inside state security that do like the way things are going. In that light, while not informational, it is informative about the shadow play going on behind the scenes.
Pay Attention (Score:4, Interesting)
That editorial was written to shift perception. The CFR is part of the inner circle in Washington. Anything that comes from anyone associated with it should be viewed as a tactic in a larger campaign. He's not trying to argue the finer points of Snowden's guilt or innocence. He's trying to move the needle of public opinion, so that subsequent actions against Snowden have less resistance.
Could Snowden be a controlled burn? (Score:3, Interesting)
Isn't it curious: do we really know more now than before Snowden made his "revelations"? We already knew that the NSA was snooping in our "metadata" and in all kinds of international traffic. So who now protests what the NSA does? Great Britain, Germany, Israel, Australia, India and Brazil. All countries with strong ties to the U.S.; all countries who have cooperated or can be presumed to have cooperated with the intelligence-gathering of the U.S. in the past. Why don't we hear the protestations of China, of North Korea, or of neutral countries like Spain?
Isn't it curious: the NSA "contractor" plugs in his portable drive into the evil network and, like Princess Leia, carries off the plans to the intelligence-gathering form of the Death Star for the Rebels while being undetected. Who would you pick to act such a part? Perhaps a young, geeky-looking guy -- oh, and let's make him white so we can avoid negative colorations of the the U.S. (and other countries') minorities...
Isn't it curious: the NSA "contractor" escapes the control of the possessor of the information. He supposedly knows all of the right contacts to gain "amnesty" in a foreign country. He lands in Russia rather than in a more neutral country ... and Russia does have strong ties to the U.S. now, don't they? He who "betrayed" the NSA sips expensive wines and eats caviar under the protection of a country that really shouldn't care less what happens to him, right?
When the grass grows high in the forestland, sometimes the keepers of the forest execute a controlled burn. They intentionally start a fire in the grass so they can have the resources to keep it under control, rather than wait for some future accident to cause a crisis. I suspect that here the grass is public opinion, and Mr. Snowden is the match put into the grass.
Mr. Snowden does not deserve amnesty: he already has it.
Re:Truthy (Score:3, Interesting)
A distinction without a difference.
No, a distinction that matters. Because he took that new job, and started compromising the credentials of his co-workers (many of whom have now lost their careers) pretty much right away. He walked into that new gig with a specific agenda, essentially lying from the get-go about his motivations. Take off the beer goggles and actually look at the reality of the situation.
Re:Truthy (Score:5, Interesting)
Because he took that new job, and started compromising the credentials of his co-workers (many of whom have now lost their careers)
First, there is no evidence that anyone got fired because snowden used their accounts. I invite you to prove me wrong.
Second, the NSA's director of technology has said that "the lion's share" of the information Snowden copied was available to anyone with a TS/SCI clearance at the NSA. [foreignpolicy.com] Apparently the SCI part wasn't very well compartmentalized.
Third, complaining that other employees suffered career damage because of his actions doesn't change Snowden's motivations. You might as well argue that Snowden's a bad guy because his actions have forced Alexander to retire early.
He walked into that new gig with a specific agenda, essentially lying from the get-go about his motivations.
He knew there was a problem due to direct personal experience of it on his previous job and so he decided to get proof. So what? The alternative would have been what? To just pretend he didn't know anything was wrong? Without proof any whistleblowing would have been dismissed, he'd already seen that happen to the whistleblowers who came before him.
Take off the beer goggles and actually look at the reality of the situation.
Lol! #projection
Re:What's good for the goose (Score:2, Interesting)
I'm done making a distinction between the people who serve and the people who command. I don't support the troops, not anymore.
The actions of our military would not be possible without the complicity of those who serve. At this point, the misdeeds of the military are well documented and anyone serving is giving their tacit support to those misdeeds by enlisting. The US political system is fundamentally flawed and unlikely to change things. If we start directing our ire at those in the military, perhaps the specter of shame and disdain will cause future enlistees to reconsider their choice to join up and a lack of "boots on the ground" will curtail the obnoxious behavior of the military in a way that no amount of voting or political activism can.
I do agree that some of the treatment of veterans is wrong and I do sympathize with them, however it's an issue that I won't support for the above reasons. Unlike Vietnam vets, all current vets have voluntarily sided with a government that they had no right to believe would treat them ethically. They've chosen their side and it's in opposition to mine.
Note that everything I've said above applies equally to any white-collar worker in the defense space. If you work on weapons systems or in the intelligence community, you've sided with people I consider morally bankrupt and I consider it your ethical duty to extricate yourself as soon as responsibly possible.
Re:What's good for the goose - Al Qaeda -- USA (Score:5, Interesting)
The U.S. had EVERYTHING to do with Al Qaeda! In fact the CIA were the ones who started the whole thing back in the 80'a. Back in the 80's when Russia was at war with Afganistan it was the CIA who was funding, training and arming the Mujahideen - and guess who was the leader of the Mujahideen? Yup Osama Bin Laden! The part of the Mujahideen lead by Osama Bin Laden eventually became Al Qaeda. The U.S. CREATED and for the most part has some control of Al Qaeda. Heck even Anwar Al-Awlaki (the Al Qaeda leader DINED at the Pentagon months AFTER 9/11!
References:
Al Qaeda Leader Dined at the Pentagon Just Months After 9/11
http://www.infowars.com/al-qaeda-leader-dined-at-the-pentagon-just-months-after-911/ [infowars.com]
Dining with the enemy: Al Qaeda leader linked to 9/11 hijackers 'was invited to the Pentagon for lunch after attacks'
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1322397/Al-Qaedas-Anwar-Al-Awlaki-invited-Pentagon-lunch-9-11-attacks.html [dailymail.co.uk]
Mujahideen
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mujahideen [wikipedia.org]
Sec. State Clinton Admits U.S. Created Mujahideen that Became al-Qaeda
http://www.infowars.com/sec-state-clinton-admits-u-s-created-mujahideen-that-became-al-qaeda/ [infowars.com]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0Cc3LfhQ-o&feature=player_embedded [youtube.com]
Mujahideen
Al-Qaeda
http://www.google.com/#hl=en&source=hp&q=mujahideen+al+qaeda&aq=0&aqi=g1g-m1&aql=&oq=mujahideen+al&gs_rfai=C07tUp9QoTOWrHYuugATN08X2CgAAAKoEBU_Qpa0Q&fp=e0fa4b5da4f245a4 [google.com]
http://www.infoplease.com/spot/al-qaeda-terrorism.html [infoplease.com]
"The Mujahideen
Al-Qaeda has its origins in the uprising against the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan. Thousands of volunteers from around the Middle East came to Afghanistan as mujahideen, warriors fighting to defend fellow Muslims. In the mid-1980s, Osama bin Laden became the prime financier for an organization that recruited Muslims from mosques around the world. These "Afghan Arab" mujahideen, which numbered in the thousands, were crucial in defeating Soviet forces"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mujahideen [wikipedia.org]
US, Pakistani and other financing and support
See also: Operation Cyclone
The mujahideen were significantly financed and armed (and are alleged to have been trained) by the United States Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) during the administrations of Carter[5] and Reagan, and also by Saudi Arabia, Pakistan under Zia-ul-Haq, Iran, the People's Republic of China and several Western European countries.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_CIA_assistance_to_Osama_bin_Laden [wikipedia.org]
Claims have been made that the American government, and in particular the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA), are responsible for enabling "Afghan Arabs," and in particular Osama bin Laden's al-Qaeda.
In mid-1979, about the same time as the Soviet Union deployed troops into Afghanistan, the United States began giving several hundred million dollars a year in aid to the Afghan Mujahideen insurgents fighting the Afghan Marxist government and the Soviet Army in Operation Cyclone. Along with native Afghan mujahideen were Muslim volunteers from other countries, popularly known
Re:Does USA care about the rest of the world? (Score:4, Interesting)
Of course the US population wants us to spy on every country. We are not some pansy Aristocratic Monarchy which only wins through honorable behavior. We are the United States, and we win because we cheat. George Washington never won a fair fight in his life. Bobby Lee fought fair, and lost half his Army to a guy who didn't fight at all (Bill Sherman), and the other half to a guy (Grant) who won mostly by knowing the best place to throw bodies. So the American people don't think we should stop tapping foreign leaders phones. We get kinda embarrassed about Angie Merkell because she seems like a nice lady and we don't want to remind her of the Stasi, but we won't stop tapping her phone. We are America, our unofficial motto is "trust, but verify", we will cheat our asses off (just ask the American Indians, there's a reason they gave up on reforming us and became citizens in the 20s), and if you don't like it you should probably support a European superstate because that's the only thing that can stop us.
Now if you did a poll and asked about mass data collection I doubt Americans would put it in the same "of course we cheat" category, but this article isn't about arresting Snowden for the mass data collection. It's about the spying on foreign officials, outing our techniques in Pakistan, etc. And that shit is firmly in "of course we cheat."