Member of President Obama's NSA Panel Recommends Increased Data Collection 349
cold fjord writes "National Journal reports, 'Michael Morell, the former acting director of the CIA and a member of President Obama's task force on surveillance, said ... that a controversial telephone data-collection program conducted by the National Security Agency should be expanded to include emails. He also said the program, far from being unnecessary, could prevent the next 9/11. Morell, seeking to correct any misperception that the presidential panel had called for a radical curtailment of NSA programs, said he is in favor of restarting a program that the NSA discontinued in 2011 that involved the collection of "meta-data" for internet communications. ... "I would argue actually that the email data is probably more valuable than the telephony data," ... Morell also said that while he agreed with the report's conclusion that the telephone data program, conducted under Section 215 of the Patriot Act, made "only a modest contribution to the nation's security" so far, it should be continued under the new safeguards recommended by the panel. "I would argue that what effectiveness we have seen to date is totally irrelevant to how effective it might be in the future," he said. "This program, 215, has the ability to stop the next 9/11 and if you added emails in there it would make it even more effective. Had it been in place in 2000 and 2001, I think that probably 9/11 would not have happened."' — More at Politico and National Review. Some members of Congress have a different view. Even Russian President Putin has weighed in with both a zing and a defense."
Encrypt everything... (Score:2, Informative)
Nuff said.
That was unexpected (Score:1, Informative)
Putin: I Envy Obama In Light Of NSA Revelations ‘Because He Can Get Away With It’ [cbslocal.com]
Russian President Vladimir Putin defended the U.S. National Security Agency, and even said he envies President Barack Obama in light of the NSA revelations “because he can get away with it.”
Putin’s comments at a Thursday news conference reflected support for the NSA surveillance as a necessary tool to fight terrorism, but added that government rules should “limit the appetite” of the data-collecting agency, CBS News reports.
Keep in mind that Putin knows the NSA spies on Russia too. What is the world coming to? That really is an interesting development.
Well, maybe if Russia's security agencies got their hands on the NSA tasking list that Snowden took they now feel much less vulnerable. They would be right.
Not what I heard on NPR (Score:3, Informative)
from Richard Clark (the one who warned Bush on possible Al-Qaida threats pre-911) who was also on the panel. His line was that many of the NSA's programs are useful, (phone meta data not so much) but the program need more judges (to handle all the requests properly and perhaps a civilian advocate.
Re:WTF?! (Score:5, Informative)
The double-down works because it's focused on denying anything was done wrong in the first place. To apologize means admitting guilt. To continue but more so is an active statement that no law was broken.
No. More than expected. (Score:2, Informative)
Remember that the crooks on both sides have always been allies.
Why stop there? (Score:4, Informative)
> "He also said the program, far from being unnecessary, could prevent the next 9/11."
Why stop there? If you put everyone in jail you'll prevent attacks too.
And give us all tracking collars and big bonuses for yourself and your crony pals for the contracts to fulfill all the work.
As long as we don't consider unintended consequences, history, or conflicting interests like the Constitution and public opinion, expanding surveillance makes a lot of sense.
Then again, the slightest thought to any of these things makes him sound like a total idiot, if not a traitor.
Snowden's response... (Score:5, Informative)
According to the Globo report, Mr. Snowden said the NSA hasn’t produced evidence to suggest the disclosures have caused harm. He said U.S. law doesn’t distinguish between a whistleblower revealing illegal programs “and a spy secretly selling documents to terrorists.”
The biggest offense one can commit in the U.S. isn’t to damage the government, but rather to “embarrass it. It’s clear that I could not possibly get a fair trial in my country,” he said, according to the report.
http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2013/12/22/snowden-criticizes-u-s-panel-overseeing-surveillance/ [wsj.com]
formal, written agreements for campaign debates (Score:4, Informative)
> parties have informally (Or possible, conspiratorially)
We know they formally agree to what questions will be asked in campaign debates. They are open about that. So at least it is "sometimes conspitatorially".
Re:WTF?! (Score:5, Informative)
Hope and Change, man. Fight the military industrial complex, stick it to the man, fight for the little guy, eat the rich!
Seriously though - you cannot be surprised about this. If you are, you either:
1. Have not been paying attention, or
2. Are not intellectually honest, or
3. Both 1 and 2.
No, I'm not saying that putting an (R) after a name instead of a (D) would make it any better. I'm sure that some of these spying programs were started under President Bush Jr., or perhaps Clinton, or Bush Sr., or maybe even earlier.
You see, nearly all of the politicians these days are big government advocates, and part of big government means they want to watch you so that they can control you. It's for your own good though, see. It's to keep you safe. Or something.
I am reminded of a woman who called Mike Trivisonno's radio show on WTAM a few years back. She was an old woman from Russia, back when it was part of the USSR. She was angry, screaming at us (the American people in general), "Don't you see what you are doing? Don't you know where this will lead? I left Russia to get away from this! What are you doing?"
could prevent the next 9/11? (Score:2, Informative)
could prevent the next 9/11?
Know what we need to do to "prevent the next 9/11"?
Not one fucking thing.
Passengers already know that the statements by officials and so called experts in the 70's, 80's and 90's regarding being taken hostage is no longer valid.
We were told for decades to just keep calm and do what they say.. We will end up in cuba or someplace and all will be well.
No such behavior will ever happen again, if someone tries to take a plane the passengers will go rabid and the problem will end there, plus, all cockpits have locking doors now (who would have EVER thought to put a lock on a door... WTF).
This is all so much bullshit.
We survived decades of the fucking soviets with thousands of state sponsored nuks pointed at our cities and factories. We have fought a REAL war with many thousands of deaths every decade or so since the founding of our country and have left our liberties intact, why the hell do a couple of hundred of backward religious nutters cancel our rights?
Hell, more people die in car crashes each year than on 9/11, year after year after year.. People just have no sense at all about this stuff and the spooks and creeps are just playing to the ignorant and fearful.
Re:WTF?! (Score:3, Informative)
"There is no "right" to use the govt to force one group of people to economically support another group."
"There is no "right" to use the govt to force one group of people to economically support another group. That's vote buying with tax dollars, not freedom."
But then you say:
"Weapons protect you and your lifestyle. "
But, I, as a taxpayer, am being forced to economically support wealthy weapons manufacturing CEO's and VP's.
I am being forced to economically support troops, 100% of their paycheck comes from taxpayers.
I am being forced to economically support runway contractors, food contractors, the contractors that run our base and prison in Cuba.
People with guns are forcing me to pay for their fuel, food, housing.
You see, I am not arguing that we need no military, I am just showing you this idea that no one supports others with tax dollars is a useless and ignorant point of view when coming from someone who obviously supports the government using tax dollars to provide for the livelihood of one group of people that you agree with.
The real argument is not if the government should support people with tax dollars, but who, how, and how much.
Government is something created by a society.
Societies have ALWAYS had some form of taxation, and have ALWAYS used these taxes to provide benefits to members of that society. There are simply some things that must be done with collective labor or collective resources to better the society as a whole, basics like roads and the military, and yes, food for the poor date back to the very beginning of written history.
Do The Math - Still Worth It (Score:5, Informative)
"I would argue that what effectiveness we have seen to date is totally irrelevant to how effective it might be in the future," he said. "This program, 215, has the ability to stop the next 9/11 and if you added emails in there it would make it even more effective. Had it been in place in 2000 and 2001, I think that probably 9/11 would not have happened."'
OK, let's take your utterly preposterous claim at face value. Let's say that this program would have prevented 9/11, and would prevent another 9/11 tomorrow, and has done fuck-all in between. That means we'd save 3,000 American lives every 12 years. Call it 3,600 to make the math easy. That's 300 lives per year. Against the 4th amendment. How does that price measure up against some of our other freedoms?
To retain the right to drive automobiles, we spend 34,000 lives per year [wikipedia.org].
To retain the right to drink alcohol, we spend 34,000 to 75,000 lives per year [nbcnews.com] (depending on how you count alcohol-related accidents).
To retain the right to use tobacco, we spend 440,000 lives per year [cdc.gov].
To retain the second amendment, we spend 30,000 lives per year [wikipedia.org].
To retain the right to be obese, we spend 300,000 lives per year [wvdhhr.org].
With the possible exception of tobacco, I support the retention of all those rights. Three hundred per year for The Fourth Amendment (and the chilling effect on The First)? Even if his preposterous supposition were true, it would be a bargain at ten times the price compared to some of the other rights we hold dear.
Re:WTF?! (Score:3, Informative)
Hammer forge. Balls don't go into roller mills. They just roll on the intake.
Re:WTF?! (Score:5, Informative)
Of course, every dollar spent on handouts is taken out of the private sector and taking money out of the private sector reduces job opportunities so the best way to keep from straining the safety net is to quite spending so damn much money on it. If govt spending is not reduced, then the country will soon be bankrupted, there will be widespread civil unrest and a police state will be instituted in order to restore order. It may be hard for some to accept, but that is exactly what Obama and his backers want. Obama isn't intent on releasing a bunch of convicted criminals from prison for nothing - every would-be dictator recruits a private army from low-level street criminals, people devoid of conscience, willing to brutalize the law-abiding and live off them like parasites.
Bzzzt! Wrong. Thanks for playing. Economic analysis shows that government spending, especially on safety nets has a net positive effect (each dollar spent increases economic activity by more than a dollar) on the economy. I was looking around for a good example [google.com] of such an analysis, but there are so many, I'll let you pick the one you like best. :)