DHS Turns To Unpaid Interns For Nation's Cyber Security 174
Posted
by
Soulskill
from the probably-still-an-upgrade dept.
from the probably-still-an-upgrade dept.
theodp writes "A week after President Obama stressed the importance of computer science to America, the Department of Homeland Security put out a call for 100+ of the nations' best-and-brightest college students to work for nothing on the nation's cyber security. The unpaid internship program, DHS notes, is the realization of recommendations (PDF) from the Homeland Security Advisory Council's Task Force on CyberSkills, which included execs from Facebook, Lockheed Martin, and Sony, and was advised by representatives from Cisco, JP Morgan Chase, Goldman Sachs, Northrop Grumman, the NSF, and the NSA. 'Do you desire to protect American interests and secure our Nation while building a meaningful and rewarding career?' reads the job posting for Secretary's Honors Program Cyber Student Volunteers (salary: $0.00-$0.00). 'If so, the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) is calling.' Student volunteers, DHS adds, will begin in spring 2014 and participate throughout the summer. Get your applications in by January 3, kids!"
Stick with what works... (Score:5, Funny)
Ooo! Outsiders worked so well before! Snow-den! Snow-den! What fun.
Re:Stick with what works... (Score:5, Informative)
If youi're taking a snipe at contractors vs govt personnel here on this one, there really isn't much a difference in the loyalty or trustworthiness of the two.
If you're working on something security related, you have to sign the same forms saying you're liable to the same laws and penalties if you divulge secrets, etc.
It isn't like the govt. worker is held to any standards higher than the contractor is, if working on the same system/data.
And a secret clearance background check isn't any more thorough for a govt employee than it is for a contractor, they pretty much use the same exact methods and entities for them.
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Most people just don't get this. Strange, isn't it?
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Seems like a ton of hassle for very little reward.
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Someone once said to that while people complain about the salaries of politicians, some of the states with the most blatant corruption are the ones that don't pay their politicians much....so they have to be wealthy or in some pockets; nobody else can take the job.
So what little reward? Clearly they are not looking tor people with much conscience. Conscience is a luxury of those who can afford it.
Get your security clearance before graduation ... (Score:5, Insightful)
Why in the hell would you have a limited time internship that requires a secret level clearance that will probably take the UNPAID intern months to get? Seems like a ton of hassle for very little reward.
Because it gets you that security clearance before graduation. When you and your peers begin applying for jobs after graduation you have an advantage, you already have security clearance.
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I don't know how it works in the US. In the UK a security clearence is bound to your employer. Getting a new job involves transfering it.
Mind you getting a SC is easier if you have had one previously.
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Re:Get your security clearance before graduation . (Score:4, Funny)
If you want to know about security clearance in the US, you can check it at http://www.state.gov/m/ds/clearances/c10978.htm [state.gov]
For the cost of getting security clearance, you who is an employee would not be paying but your employer. I believe the cost is varied depended on case by case. http://news.clearancejobs.com/2011/08/07/how-much-does-it-really-cost-to-get-a-security-clearance/ [clearancejobs.com] gives some idea about how much but it is 2 years old...
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Same in the US. However, getting the security clearance transferred is *much* easier than getting one from scratch (which, as someone else noted, can take months). It's especially easier if the clearance is currently active. So it's worthwhile to get one with whomever will get you one and then move to where you really want to be; having a currently active clearance will be a big leg up.
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Almost, but a bit more involved.
In the US it depends on what type of clearance you get. Higher level clearances are tied to an employer, and will be suspended if you leave. A new employer can reactivate the clearance within 5 years, and of course a new more brief checking. Lower level clearances can be personal, and not tied to an employer. Those also expire in 5 years if not renewed (spend $$)
That said, the clearance by itself does not give you access to anything. Each assignment will have it's own rule
Re:Stick with what works... (Score:4, Interesting)
If youi're taking a snipe at contractors vs govt personnel here on this one, there really isn't much a difference in the loyalty or trustworthiness of the two.
If you're working on something security related, you have to sign the same forms saying you're liable to the same laws and penalties if you divulge secrets, etc.
It isn't like the govt. worker is held to any standards higher than the contractor is, if working on the same system/data.
And a secret clearance background check isn't any more thorough for a govt employee than it is for a contractor, they pretty much use the same exact methods and entities for them.
All true, but at least we'd be paying the Fed employee less to screw us over. I did a stint as a DoD contractor and was paid a little more than twice what a Fed doing the same work (in the same group) was getting paid. And I was getting about a quarter of what was going to my contracting company for the position. Hell, given that math I'd be more worried about disgruntled Feds than contractors
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No, you completely and totally missunderstood that. Makes me wonder why you're so defensive.
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Two words: bull and shit.
Show me a single congressman (house or senate) that left "public service" poorer than they started.
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Two words: bull and shit.
Show me a single congressman (house or senate) that left "public service" poorer than they started.
Harry Truman. When he ended his 2nd term, all he had was his old WW1 Army pension to fall back on.
Re:Stick with what works... (Score:5, Informative)
Show me a single congressman (house or senate) that left "public service" poorer than they started.
Harry Truman. When he ended his 2nd term, all he had was his old WW1 Army pension to fall back on.
This [thequarterroll.com] contains an interesting summary of Truman's salary history.
So, he went into public service making about zero, starting with a judicial position at $3465 a year. He left the Presidency and started a military pension at $13500 a year. He then picked up another $25k a year retroactively starting in 1954.
I'd say going from zero to $38k a year is not leaving public service poorer than he started. It's not the lavish pensions pols get today, but it's still not poorer.
As for political donations for personal use, the same source reports:
So, a political supporter donated a huge sum by buying the existing debt on the new Senator's failed clothing store and letting him pay it off cheap.
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Congress passed the presidential pension law halfways thru Eisenhower's 2nd term. Truman didn't have shit to do with it, he was done with politics. He was 68 years old in an era where life expectancy was 65.2 years for a man. In 1952 he was earning 100k a year as president. In 1953 he was getting 13K a year from his Army pension
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They're not government employees. Their checks come from larger corporations.
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The GP is talking about civil service, not congressmen/women. And most of the former do have a different mindset that the private sector...especially the ones that must deal with the public. People treat help-desk workers like shit, they treat civil servants even worse. It seems they pin to civil servant all the grievances they've spent their lives inventing.
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Civil servants are frequently working for the chance to retire after 30 years, with a life time pension, and the ability to start a new career in the private sector, often exploiting their government connections, and working for the contractors they once managed. This is often refered to as double dipping. If you do military, civil service and then private sector its triple dipping. There salaries may not be great but their life time payout is actually really good. Life time pensions are increasingly ra
Re:Stick with what works... (Score:5, Informative)
from bad to worse (Score:2)
"Hi, I'm Jihad McMuhammed, I'm here to start data analysis as your newest intern."
"fine, why don't you take the Assistant Leader Personal Security desk over here, and coordinate our reactions to intelligence... you can text when you're not busy."
what could possibly be wrong about that?
Probably playing world of warcraft ... (Score:2)
Ooo! Outsiders worked so well before! Snow-den! Snow-den! What fun.
What makes you think these interns are sys admins? They are probably the folks playing world of warcraft and looking for sinister activities in chat.
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There's a disconnect here (Score:5, Insightful)
"..to work for nothing"
Boy. Can't imagine how they could say no to that.
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Politician cheer success at reducing unemployment (Score:4, Informative)
well hey, it will put people back to work right? I mean who cares if they arent getting paid as long as people are working!
You are not far off. When you go from a good manufacturing job to unemployment to flipping burgers you are a victory in the unemployment statistics, politicians will cheer their success at reducing unemployment.
Re:Politician cheer success at reducing unemployme (Score:4, Informative)
When you go from a good manufacturing job to unemployment to flipping burgers you are a victory in the unemployment statistics, politicians will cheer their success at reducing unemployment.
That's better than "go from good manufacturing job to no job to running out of unemployment insurance to giving up looking" which also counts as a success at reducing unemployment numbers.
Re:There's a disconnect here (Score:4, Insightful)
Exactly. What they're demonstrating here is the difference between saying "We're serious about fixing the problem" and "We're serious about fixing the problem and have allocated resources to demonstrate that". Promises of changes like these are worthless unless they're backed up with a budget, personnel, or infrastructure.
Something on the resume of than classwork ... (Score:4, Insightful)
"...100+ of the nations' best-and-brightest college students.."
"..to work for nothing"
Boy. Can't imagine how they could say no to that.
They are college students. They get course credit for things like this, each quarter/semester is the equivalent of an elective class. That has a monetary value.
Plus a key to getting hired is to have something on your resume other than your degree and its assigned coursework/projects. So it has monetary value in that regard too. Its not terribly different than voluntarily contributing to a FOSS project, well other than HR departments probably consider DHS experience and references more valuable.
Thirdly, if you want to work for DHS this gets your foot in the door. In governmental bureaucracies like this knowing someone inside and/or having an insider reference is quite valuable. Works in corporations too. I think the newly announced General Motors CEO started at GM as an intern when she was in college.
That said, I am not against paid internships. I am merely pointing out that as a student even an unpaid internship can have a value.
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That's part of the problem. Credit should not be given for "internships" like this, which are clearly (read the description) used to obtain free labor with no training given back (just on-the-job experience).
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That's part of the problem. Credit should not be given for "internships" like this, which are clearly (read the description) used to obtain free labor with no training given back (just on-the-job experience).
I had a "paid internship", actually it was called "cooperative education" - I have no idea if there is a distinction between the two, and to get credit I had to write a report at the end of the quarter explaining how this work related to and contributed to my field of study. I'm not claiming that this report is some great hurdle but there is supposed to be some educational aspect, well at least in the co-op class I had.
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Unpaid internships are little better than no internship.
http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/06/do-unpaid-internships-lead-to-jobs-not-for-college-students/276959/ [theatlantic.com]
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Unpaid internships are little better than no internship.
http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/06/do-unpaid-internships-lead-to-jobs-not-for-college-students/276959/ [theatlantic.com]
A 1.8% increase overall, however for some majors there is a 10% or 20% increase.
The intern is a **known**, a safe hire ... (Score:2)
We didn't bother advertising a job and do the normal recruiting. He was pretty good, got along with others and had some familiarity with our project(s). I can't emphasize strongl
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But they get a "meaningful and rewarding career," that is, if you define "meaningful" to mean "unpaid" and "rewarding" to mean "dead-end."
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However if they can get elevated security access. That could be helpful for them in future jobs. As there are a lot of jobs that require security access, however they don't want to pay to put the candidate in the process.
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Assuming they have to be US citizens seems unwise.
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On the contrary. If you had bothered to follow the links, you would have learned that US citizenship is indeed required to apply for these internships. Nor is this surprising, as US citizenship is required for a security clearance.
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There may be some levels of clearance which require citizenship, but they certainly don't *all* require it. I've known people with Secret who had only just gotten their Green Card and were years from when they would be eligible for citizenship.
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Yes, they do. From the State Department's official FAQ on security clearances: "As outlined in Executive Order 12968, Access to Classified Information, eligibility for access to classified information may only be granted to employees who are United States citizens. "
Well worth it! (Score:5, Funny)
$0 is a great price for being shunned by your peers for the rest of your life.
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Well, I recall rumors about the involvement of ex eastern Germany spymaster Markus Wolf with the DHS. OTOH since all secret agencies are de facto above the law, I suspect they are resilient to ideologies as well. Those who are powerful enough to define "national interest" rule their nation services, that's all.
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despite what Hitler said to excite the masses, the real system was in fact corporate fascism, same as we have here in the USA
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National Socialist ... just another form of collectivism.
Collectivism and fascism have a lot in common. Spain, Italy, Germany, and the Soviet Union proved that in WWII.
Evil Plot (Score:5, Insightful)
I know that they are not intended that way, but it is one of the side issues with the 'internship' culture, they tend to be a step based off how much cash you have that can have major effects on your long term career options.
Re:Evil Plot (Score:5, Interesting)
That's exactly what this is.
The position requires a security clearance, for God's sake! This is an internship for the children of congressman and other highly-placed public officials (and, of course, children of big donors to the Republican and/or Democratic parties). Nothing will get accomplished, but a lot of rich kids will get to put it on their resume.
It's definitely a problem here (Score:5, Insightful)
DHS is clustered heavily in DC and the areas immediately outside of DC within the beltway. The cost of moving to this area just to work could easily add $10k-$12k in debt or lost savings for just a single summer. This is simply not an internship that makes sense for any student who comes from a family lacking real wealth.
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It makes complete sense for the families of DC middle management, for the children of federal employees and lobbyists and military families with college age kids.
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It should be noted that DC is the only place in America with an active baby boom going on now! These people are swimming in wealth and prosperity!!! For them, it's like living in 1998 all funded by -you- the tax payer.
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>at local DHS field offices in over 60 locations across the country
Stretching far afield to places like Virginia and Maryland.
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I don't know if there is such a plot, but it is definitely an effect of the increasing income disparity. I rather doubt a plot, because historical evidence suggests that an increasing divide in wealth distribution results in less
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I don't know if there is such a plot, but it is definitely an effect of the increasing income disparity. I rather doubt a plot, because historical evidence suggests that an increasing divide in wealth distribution results in less wealth for all (including the wealthy) over time.
A quick glance at history suggests a shorter lifespan for those at the top of the wealth distribution curve. Shorter by a head, that is...
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The wealthy might have learned a bit from history --- each time around in the cycle, they're able to hold a bigger advantage; centuries of work to perfect propaganda techniques and control the masses, allowing ever greater levels of accumulated power and wealth. Meanwhile, the common people are convinced to forget their struggles every generation --- and accept a re-written history in which all progress was benevolently and peacefully handed down from our Capitalist overlords.
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I doubt that it's a plot, largely because I tend not to believe in plots rather than because it's intrinsicly unlikely. However:
While increasing the income disparity has the long term effect of decreasing the wealth of those at the top, that's only in the long term. In the short term it's to their monetary benefit.
Also, an increased disparity in wealth translates into in increased disparity in social status, and that advantage doesn't evaporate in the long term. (Well, not until the revolution.)
Because o
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In addition to that, kids have to use their family connections to get the unpaid internship. A law firm, advertising agency or something will hire a kid because his father is one of their clients.
It used to be that kids would use their family connections to get a paid internship.
There are even agencies that will place kids in an unpaid internship for a fee in the thousands of dollars.
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Not necessarily a plot, just another trick in the bag.
What happened to minimum wage? (Score:5, Insightful)
Thought that was exploitive and slave like to use unpaid interns.
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Thought that was exploitive and slave like to use unpaid interns.
States have caught on to this (though probably not fully altruistically since they lose out on taxes from these unpaid workers), but it's nice to see that the federal government doesn't mind exploiting workers for no pay. Why should they pay when the workers will do it for free - besides, this work benefits everyone. Seems like a good move for government - don't pay workers, but give them all of the essentials that they need to live. They could even use a catchy slogan "From each according to his ability,
Hmmm (Score:2)
From each according to his ability...
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From each according to his ability...
Marxist.
New Testament, actually.
Security clearances??? (Score:2, Interesting)
I would have thought anyone working in this area would need security clearance - which can take quite a while to get. How is that effort going to make sense (or be done in time) for spring/summer 2014 temporary work?
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Also relevants... (Score:5, Insightful)
Nevermind. This is a great idea. What could possibly go wrong?
Simple reason they are unpaid (Score:5, Interesting)
It ensures only the ideologically pure will come to work for them.
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Doesn't work for the tech sector, or any other for that matter. Hey, genius, see that carrot dangling out there called "future job"? Yeah, it's made of money. The internship means that only the folks who aren't poor enough to need money will work for them.
ideologically pure, how? (Score:2)
batwing crazies are fixated, too
Reminds Me Of... (Score:5, Funny)
...during the Clinton years, but before the Monica Lewinski scandal where government would place ads in newspapers and certain periodicals asking for interns. The ads mentioned something along the lines of "gain experience under the nation's leaders". After the Monica scandal, this bit of wording was changed.
The REAL job (Score:4, Funny)
C-c-c-combo breaker! (Score:3)
Sounds like a career killer to me (Score:5, Interesting)
Put that experience on a resume and you're likely to see more rejections than you would expect normally. There was a time when "government job" meant something but now it means something else entirely to a growing number of people and businesses out there. Things are getting polarized. Working and living in the DC area showed me exactly how polarized they are even 3-4 years ago.
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On the contrary, if you get a TS/SCI clearance which is tagged to your person, it's a near guarantee of a quick job at a contractor with the intelligence or military.
Government jobs are rarely free tickets to industry. Unless you were an insider with contacts and power (who could get jobs on the inside), or you happen to have worked for one of the exceptionally rare "shiny" departments (like NASA), a government employee just looks like someone who is going to expect a shit-ton of benefits *plus* the higher
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At the moment, until the people can trust their government again, participating in government makes you a bad guy especially if your job is essentially protecting the bad guys.
The most significant move to protect the security of the US is for the US to stop ficking with people in other nations. While I recognize that won't stop the Chinese or the Israelis (the Israelis will consider the US an enemy if we stop supporting them) it's a step in the direction of regaining the trust of the people of the US and t
Don't worry about the government shutting down (Score:2, Funny)
They don't get paid! It's the biggest safety mechanism that the government has left.
So let me get this straight... (Score:5, Interesting)
You want to offer a bunch of impressionable young people, most of whom are accumulating large amounts of debt, the opportunity to learn as much as they can about the computer security infrastructure of the country. While they do this, we're not paying them a cent or giving them any guarantees regarding future employment, further increasing their financial insecurity in the present and the future, as well as exploiting whatever sense of loyalty they might feel for their country for the purpose of reducing government labor costs.
What could possibly go wrong?
"secret" doesn't mean "secret" anymore. (Score:2, Informative)
It has been diluted into what was called "sensitive but unclassified".
In most cases, you have to have "secret" just to get past the guard house.
When I started, the order was "unclassified","classified", "secret", "top secret", with variations within those categories. Nowdays unclassified means unemployed :), classified means its an official document... But to get on base you have to have a "secret" or "top secret" clearance. For DHS, it means than secret is needed to get past the front door.
The other reason
In other news, bribes are cheaper than ever before (Score:3)
"Hey kid. They're not paying you, but we can help out! All we need you to do is run "trojanbackdoormasterleaker.exe" on the server with admin privileges. We can even pay you twice as much as McDonald's would! Your $30,000 salary's in the mail!"
Is this a Labor Law violation? (Score:5, Informative)
6 Legal Requirements For Unpaid Internship Programs [forbes.com]
Kinda reads like a "Who's Who" from Hell (Score:5, Insightful)
"which included execs from Facebook, Lockheed Martin, and Sony, and was advised by representatives from Cisco, JP Morgan Chase, Goldman Sachs, Northrop Grumman, the NSF, and the NSA."
Aren't these chuckleheads a good representation of all that is evil and corrupt and driving Team USA into the ground?
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I have mod points, but could not figure out Insightful, funny, or interesting so I post for all three and hope others mod you up.. Well said.
Scraping the barrel here (Score:2)
Good luck with this approach DHS. Not like there is any competition out there...
Best Intern I can think of (Score:3)
I hear Edward Snowden is looking for a job.
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Better yet, he already has his security clearance, though it might need a minor update now that he's done some international travel. ;-)
No pay (Score:2)
All the data and documents you can carry.
The value the USA puts on security (Score:3)
Well there you have it. The USA government finds security so important they are willing to spend the grand sum of $0 on it. They could have some pretty good consultants if they'd pay $100/hour
The interns they really want, easily get a decent pay for their skills in a lot of computer companies. Anyone willing to work for $0 will have ulterior motives to do so. Either they are so unskilled that even operating a cash register at a fast food restaurant at minimum wages is too difficult for them, or someone else is paying them to go do the work.
If the government didn't want to be regulating prices and wages and income of their citizens, they would put out a bid and have the lowest qualifying bidders do the job. Now they are pushing the market by forcing the price to zero.
I don't know who came up with this plan, but they really must hate their country and it's citizens a lot.
You get what you pay for. (Score:3)
The best and the brightest are going to shiny big companies that will pay them well for their internships. We've all heard the stories about compensation of interns at Google, Facebook, and Microsoft.
Further, in the post-Snowden world, I doubt many idealistic young computer scientists want *anything* to do with the feds "cyber"-anything.
The DHS will get bottom-of-barrel "talent" -- if any at all.
The old saying (Score:2)
Which side shall I choose... (Score:2)
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The U.S. Department of Labor's Wage and Hour Division allows an employer not to pay a trainee if all of the following are true:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internship#United_States [wikipedia.org]
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The U.S. Department of Labor's Wage and Hour Division allows an employer not to pay a trainee if all of the following are true:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internship#United_States [wikipedia.org]
The 'trainees' WILL replace 'regular employees' and the employer DOES receive an immediate advantage from the activities of the trainees. That was the whole point of this, wasn't it? NOT to train up the next gen of cyberwarriors, but to put them in place to DO SHIT.
The big tech companies write their job descriptions these days to where they 'can't' find Americans trained 'well enough' to fill them, thus, they NEED H1Bs to fill the slots that they 'can't find any American to fill'. H1Bs work cheaper, and
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Government doesn't live by its own rules ... (Score:4, Insightful)
Didn't they just recently pass laws/regulations pretty much banning unpaid internship for most private businesses???
Since when does government have to live by the rules it imposes on individuals and business? Exempting itself is a common practice.
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The 13th really has nothing to do with it. No one will need to be compelled to do this so it would be neither involuntary or slavery. It would be more like charity.
Oh, and as soon as the 13th does come into play, you need to involve the 5th too. Time and effort is still the most common private property held by the people and if it is seized for public use, just compensation is more than appropriate.
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Didn't America have a civil war over slavery?
Yes, twice.
Once in 2008 and again in 2012.
The slavers won both times.
Strat
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Didn't America have a civil war over slavery?
Yes, twice.
Once in 2008 and again in 2012.
The slavers won both times.
Strat
That's debatable. Just remember, under the Old Regime, man oppressed man. Under the New Regime, they reversed that...
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Just remember, under the Old Regime, man oppressed man. Under the New Regime, they reversed that...
Agreed, in that both mainstream US political parties are nearly identical when it comes to screwing over US citizens. It's only the precise manner of implementation and rates at which individual liberty is lost that are up for debate.
Time for a convention of States. http://conventionofstates.com/ [conventionofstates.com]
Strat
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Just remember, under the Old Regime, man oppressed man. Under the New Regime, they reversed that...
Agreed, in that both mainstream US political parties are nearly identical when it comes to screwing over US citizens. It's only the precise manner of implementation and rates at which individual liberty is lost that are up for debate.
Time for a convention of States. http://conventionofstates.com/ [conventionofstates.com]
Strat
Interesting. A Tea Party site because the Republican Party just isn't conservative or reactionary enough, advertising BlazeTV because FauxSnuz isn't conservative enough either. They're advocating a 'constitutional convention' to rewrite the Constitution to their liking, doing away with things like taxes, the EPA, the FDA, all the social safety nets, and so forth. Sounds like some 'almost a good idea', except they didn't bother to think through the repercussions OR tell you what some of those repercussion