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Satanists Propose Monument At Oklahoma State Capitol Next To Ten Commandments 1251

Posted by samzenpus
from the what's-good-for-the-goose-is-good-for-the-satanic-gander dept.
Hugh Pickens DOT Com writes "The Tulsa World reports that in their zeal to tout their faith in the public square, conservatives in Oklahoma may have unwittingly opened the door to a wide range of religious groups, including satanists who are now seeking to put their own statue next to a Ten Commandments monument on the Statehouse steps. The Republican-controlled Legislature in Oklahoma authorized the privately funded Ten Commandments monument in 2009, and it was placed on the Capitol grounds last year despite criticism from legal experts who questioned its constitutionality. But the New York-based Satanic Temple saw an opportunity and notified the state's Capitol Preservation Commission that it wants to donate a monument too. 'We believe that all monuments should be in good taste and consistent with community standards,' Lucien Greaves wrote in letter to state officials. 'Our proposed monument, as an homage to the historic/literary Satan, will certainly abide by these guidelines.' Brady Henderson, legal director for ACLU Oklahoma, said if state officials allow one type of religious expression, they must allow alternative forms of expression, although he said a better solution might be to allow none at all on state property. 'We would prefer to see Oklahoma's government officials work to faithfully serve our communities and improve the lives of Oklahomans instead of erecting granite monuments to show us all how righteous they are,' says Henderson. 'But if the Ten Commandments, with its overtly Christian message, is allowed to stay at the Capitol, the Satanic Temple's proposed monument cannot be rejected because of its different religious viewpoint.'"
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Satanists Propose Monument At Oklahoma State Capitol Next To Ten Commandments

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  • by Tablizer (95088) on Monday December 09, 2013 @04:31PM (#45643587) Journal

    If you think atheists drive evangelical conservatives nuts, you ain't seen nothing yet.

    • by fuzzyfuzzyfungus (1223518) on Monday December 09, 2013 @04:36PM (#45643671) Journal

      If you think atheists drive evangelical conservatives nuts, you ain't seen nothing yet.

      Which is a trifle ironic, because 'satanists' (to the degree that they actually take the stuff seriously, and aren't just into heavy metal and upsetting their parents), are far closer, in terms of opinions on metaphysics, to Christians than atheists are. Especially to some of the protestant outfits that are practically Manichean in their emphasis on the power of satan in the world...

      Though, given how much they like Muslims, who are closer still, I suppose that it may be a matter of hating your competitors even more than people in a different industry altogether.

    • by atheos (192468) on Monday December 09, 2013 @04:44PM (#45643801) Homepage
      no, not in the least. Satanists (in the minds of Christians) just help to validate the Christian world view. The Atheists will continue to be the ones primarily driving the evangelicals nuts. Us, and the new pope.
      • by ColaMan (37550) on Monday December 09, 2013 @05:06PM (#45644147) Homepage Journal

        I don't believe in any particular God, but I'm starting to like this new pope. Not because he's tied to a particular religion, but because he's visibly out there trying to do some good instead of smiling and waving from a balcony.

        I know it takes a while to move up the ranks to Popehood, but maybe they should try and get some younger popes on the scene. Give them a bit more time to grow into the job and get some stuff done themselves before becoming a bedridden old man in charge of a world religion.

        That's my view from the outside looking in anyway.

    • Uncanny valley (Score:5, Interesting)

      by knarf (34928) on Monday December 09, 2013 @05:15PM (#45644285) Homepage

      The uncanny valley [wikipedia.org] also seems to cover religious doctrines - any religion which is almost, but not quite like theirs is the spawn of Satan, in this case literally. It is a sad state of affairs when Homo Sapiens Sapiens - the 'thinking thinking humanoid' deliberately avoids using that brain power and instead ruts for whatever 'ultimate truth' their tribal elders have burdened them with. Thinking man, indeed.

    • by Charliemopps (1157495) on Monday December 09, 2013 @05:23PM (#45644389)

      The church of Satan IS atheist.

      The Church of Satan does not "worship" or believe in Satan, nor do they believe in gods. LaVeyan Satanism follows the belief that one's self is their own "God". They do not believe in suppression of desire and human nature. In an interview with David Shankbone, High Priest Peter Gilmore stated "My real feeling is that anybody who believes in supernatural entities on some level is insane. Whether they believe in the Devil or God, they are abdicating reason". Gilmore defines the word "Satan": "Satan is a model or a mode of behavior. Satan in Hebrew means 'adversary' or 'opposer'; one who questions."
      Gilmore went on to add "Satanism begins with atheism. We begin with the universe and say, 'It’s indifferent. There’s no God, there’s no Devil. No one cares!'"

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_Satan#Beliefs [wikipedia.org]

      Though any Christian with any understanding of the bible would say that all those who do not accept Jesus are either being deceived by or worshiping Satan.

  • by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 09, 2013 @04:32PM (#45643593)

    Please?

  • by Fallen Kell (165468) on Monday December 09, 2013 @04:32PM (#45643599)
    I thought they were overtly Jewish...
  • Satanists? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Skevin (16048) on Monday December 09, 2013 @04:32PM (#45643603) Journal

    I have trouble believing they are really Satanists, rather than people claiming to be Satanists.

    Oh wait, that's true of most Christians too.

  • by WindBourne (631190) on Monday December 09, 2013 @04:32PM (#45643609) Journal
    This is why we need a clean separation of church and state. And yeah, the evangelical in OK are going to go nuts once they realize that they MUST allow this garbage.
    • by fuzzyfuzzyfungus (1223518) on Monday December 09, 2013 @04:51PM (#45643907) Journal
      The evangelicals really should have remembered the Danbury Baptists...

      Exercising the temporal power of fire and sword against your religious enemies is fun and all; but (even when you are on top) tends to be corrupting, and when you aren't, it opens the door to being at the mercy of every different group out there.

      Plus, even among people who would ordinarily be inclined to treat your choices of faith as purely personal and let you believe as you will, nothing sours toleration quite like making it clear that you are ready and willing to impose what you believe on everyone else. Suddenly, and wholly because of your actions, your beliefs are now everybody's business; because everybody will suffer for them. That's when the gloves come off (most notably among atheists: 'god-not-existing' is something that isn't even worth mentioning, except that people who believe otherwise keep pushing the matter. In absence of pressure from theists, the nonexistence of god is about as interesting as the nonexistence of Russel's teapot.)
  • ACLU (Score:5, Insightful)

    by anmre (2956771) on Monday December 09, 2013 @04:36PM (#45643669)
    I like the ACLU's stance here. If everyone is not free, than nobody is free.
  • by sd4f (1891894) on Monday December 09, 2013 @04:44PM (#45643805)

    The 10 commandments are of jewish origin, and are respected by muslims as well, since they are included in the quran. They didn't come from Jesus, so the 'overtly Christian message' comment just seems to be way off the mark and most importantly, it is technically incorrect.

    While governments shouldn't really get involved at all, with religions, because it will exhibit some favouritism, amongst a plethora of other reasons, the satanists in this instance just appear to be sectarians who desperately hate christians. I guess by being motivated by hate, they do display that they're practicing satanists, rather than just regular bigotry and intolerance present in religions.

    • by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 09, 2013 @04:51PM (#45643911)

      The 10 Commandments are "overtly Christian" in the sense that the swastika is "overtly Nazi." Though the swastika had been used for millenia before by other groups, it was the Nazis (and neo-Nazis today) who adopted it as a political rallying symbol. Similarly, it's the far-right loons who have adopted public imposition of 10 Commandments monuments to assert political and social dominance. These monuments are not being put up to encourage support and inclusion of Muslims in the community.

    • by SirGarlon (845873) on Monday December 09, 2013 @05:08PM (#45644171)

      I would say an overtly Christian message is more like:

      But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,

      Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.

      -- Luke 6:27

      Now that is a message which I have never seen on a courthouse wall in the US, though I think the country would be a better place if it were common...

      So to express a minority opinion (practicing Christian here), I think the Right Thing from a Christian point of view is to let the Satanists put up their monument and invite them over for a picnic.

      • by Anonymous Coward on Monday December 09, 2013 @05:37PM (#45644579)

        So to express a minority opinion (practicing Christian here), I think the Right Thing from a Christian point of view is to let the Satanists put up their monument and invite them over for a picnic.

        They can bring the deviled eggs.

      • by ChromaticDragon (1034458) on Monday December 09, 2013 @06:03PM (#45644913)

        As a Christian, I would strongly prefer to have NO Politics in my Religion and NO Religion in my Politics. And I CERTAINLY do not appreciate when others attempt to judge my civic or spiritual status based on my religious or political views.

        I understand fully that one's personal political views may be strongly influenced by their personal religious views. How could this not be so? Furthermore, in any Democracy I would somewhat expect to see majority views end up as policy. But politics has become nauseatingly divisive in the US in the last few decades. Christians should put that in check. Last major election cycle, our lead minister chastised our church overall to remind us we should not at all let these divisions of men (politics) create ill will or disharmony among those in the church.

        Regarding this current fracas, I prefer the solution that involves removing the Ten Commandments monument. If this silly effort by the Satanists results in such, I will be pleased.

        I desire complete separation of Church and State. I have NO patience or tolerance of efforts/goals/policies that attempt to chip away at this. I do not want any church trying to control how Science is taught in the schools. But even more importantly, I do not want the Government telling me how to practice Christianity. And if you don't understand the danger of that, you need to brush up on your History.

  • by cpt kangarooski (3773) on Monday December 09, 2013 @04:46PM (#45643847) Homepage

    God bless those Satanists

  • Lovin' it! (Score:4, Informative)

    by Okian Warrior (537106) on Monday December 09, 2013 @04:52PM (#45643921) Homepage Journal

    I am just loving this to bits. Getting my popcorn ready, this should be good!

    For the record, the oft-quoted statement "Do as thou wilt be the whole of the law" does not mean what people think.

    It comes from The Book of Law [wikiquote.org], and is followed by "Love is the law, love under will."

    People don't normally include that last part, for some reason.

    (The study of this post is forbidden. It is wise to destroy this browser tab after the first reading.
    Whosoever disregards this does so at his own risk and peril. These are most dire.)

  • by AioKits (1235070) on Monday December 09, 2013 @04:54PM (#45643959)
    As a Tulsa, Oklahoma resident, this fills me with so much pride. Now to raise the money for a monument to Fenrir! Maybe a Ledberg stone replica? Anyone else up for it?
  • Nah, people here... (Score:4, Interesting)

    by thunderclap (972782) on Monday December 09, 2013 @05:19PM (#45644329)
    Actually. I live in Tulsa. I supported the monument because I think it should be in the public. That being said, I have no issue with a goat skull inside a inverted pentagram or a statue of Aliester Crowely beside it. We are suppose to have freedom of Religion here that. means everyone any where and believe anything. The govt can't pick a favorite religion. That's it. So to get the ACLU to shut up, yes I will agree with joy. That's what real tolerance is. Hell, I will even support a life sized Buddy Jesus Pointing at him too.
  • It's an embarassment (Score:5, Interesting)

    by wcrowe (94389) on Monday December 09, 2013 @05:22PM (#45644369)

    I am an Oklahoma resident, and a Christian. I have no problem with the Ten Commandments, but anyone who bothers to actually read both can see that the first four (and possibly five) commandments are clearly in contention with the constitution. Very often, Christians, in their simplicity, when thinking about the Ten Commandments, only have in mind commandments 6,7,8, and 9 (or 5, 6, 7, and 8 depending on how they are enumerated). Allowing such a monument to be erected on public land using private funds, gets around the law, but only opens a pandora's box of other problems. It was inevitable that this would happen.

    The hypocrisy in Oklahoma is this: you can get people to donate money like crazy to erect useless monuments, yet about 1/5th of the state's population doesn't know where their next meal is coming from.

    This is one Oklahoma Christian that despises that monument.

  • by QilessQi (2044624) on Monday December 09, 2013 @05:32PM (#45644499)

    There are *four* versions, and they all differ:

    A. Catholics & Lutherans (Deuteronomy 5)
    B. Jewish (Exodus 20, referring only to the delivery from Egypt)
    C. Muslim (Qur'an-Citations refer to verses in the Qur'an)
    D. Protestant (Exodus 20, referring only to graven images)

    http://undergod.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=000824 [procon.org]

    Seems like whichever version you post, someone might be unhappy with the choice. :-)

  • upside-down (Score:5, Insightful)

    by PopeRatzo (965947) on Monday December 09, 2013 @06:16PM (#45645073) Homepage Journal

    Don't evangelicals realize that by trying to insinuate Christian dogma into government they are diminishing both their faith and their civil society?

    But I guess that's to be expected when you give yourself a victim's mentality. If you listen to many evangelicals, you would think that they are the most discriminated against, put upon, beaten down minority in the entire world. You would think they have to practice their religion in secret to avoid arrest, rather than there being a church on every other street corner in America. They fight to prevent women from getting health care in private, gays from having formal relationships, children from learning science, and then cry that their rights are being violated. They've turned "Merry Christmas" into a defiant challenge instead of a wish for peace.

    If the Satan of the bible existed, he'd feel right at home with this bunch.

  • Awesome (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Arancaytar (966377) <arancaytar.ilyaran@gmail.com> on Monday December 09, 2013 @06:39PM (#45645343) Homepage

    No mistake, I don't think satanists are any less silly than other religious weirdos, but the sound of those conservatives minds exploding is pretty neat. And the best part is that they totally brought this on themselves.

Algol-60 surely must be regarded as the most important programming language yet developed. -- T. Cheatham

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