Satanists Propose Monument At Oklahoma State Capitol Next To Ten Commandments 1251
Hugh Pickens DOT Com writes "The Tulsa World reports that in their zeal to tout their faith in the public square, conservatives in Oklahoma may have unwittingly opened the door to a wide range of religious groups, including satanists who are now seeking to put their own statue next to a Ten Commandments monument on the Statehouse steps. The Republican-controlled Legislature in Oklahoma authorized the privately funded Ten Commandments monument in 2009, and it was placed on the Capitol grounds last year despite criticism from legal experts who questioned its constitutionality. But the New York-based Satanic Temple saw an opportunity and notified the state's Capitol Preservation Commission that it wants to donate a monument too. 'We believe that all monuments should be in good taste and consistent with community standards,' Lucien Greaves wrote in letter to state officials. 'Our proposed monument, as an homage to the historic/literary Satan, will certainly abide by these guidelines.' Brady Henderson, legal director for ACLU Oklahoma, said if state officials allow one type of religious expression, they must allow alternative forms of expression, although he said a better solution might be to allow none at all on state property. 'We would prefer to see Oklahoma's government officials work to faithfully serve our communities and improve the lives of Oklahomans instead of erecting granite monuments to show us all how righteous they are,' says Henderson. 'But if the Ten Commandments, with its overtly Christian message, is allowed to stay at the Capitol, the Satanic Temple's proposed monument cannot be rejected because of its different religious viewpoint.'"
Is a FSM Statue Next? (Score:3, Interesting)
Please?
Re:Fireworks in 3...2...1... (Score:5, Interesting)
If you think atheists drive evangelical conservatives nuts, you ain't seen nothing yet.
Which is a trifle ironic, because 'satanists' (to the degree that they actually take the stuff seriously, and aren't just into heavy metal and upsetting their parents), are far closer, in terms of opinions on metaphysics, to Christians than atheists are. Especially to some of the protestant outfits that are practically Manichean in their emphasis on the power of satan in the world...
Though, given how much they like Muslims, who are closer still, I suppose that it may be a matter of hating your competitors even more than people in a different industry altogether.
Here be traps! (Score:5, Interesting)
Satanism and good taste do not fit in the same sentence and oxymoronic.
Wow, you really know a lot about Satanism.
A quick question: the bible recognizes, tolerates, and at certain points condones slavery(*).
I've always wondered about that. If we can judge sections of the bible as outdated or immoral, superseded by a more enlightened sense of morality, why can't we do this for other sections, such as the ones about homosexuality?
That's a trap, BTW. See if you can answer without falling into it. Have a nice day!
(*) However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)
Re:Fireworks in 3...2...1... (Score:5, Interesting)
I don't believe in any particular God, but I'm starting to like this new pope. Not because he's tied to a particular religion, but because he's visibly out there trying to do some good instead of smiling and waving from a balcony.
I know it takes a while to move up the ranks to Popehood, but maybe they should try and get some younger popes on the scene. Give them a bit more time to grow into the job and get some stuff done themselves before becoming a bedridden old man in charge of a world religion.
That's my view from the outside looking in anyway.
Re:Fireworks in 3...2...1... (Score:5, Interesting)
So the hetero couples who need IVF to get pregnant can go fish?
Uncanny valley (Score:5, Interesting)
The uncanny valley [wikipedia.org] also seems to cover religious doctrines - any religion which is almost, but not quite like theirs is the spawn of Satan, in this case literally. It is a sad state of affairs when Homo Sapiens Sapiens - the 'thinking thinking humanoid' deliberately avoids using that brain power and instead ruts for whatever 'ultimate truth' their tribal elders have burdened them with. Thinking man, indeed.
Re:Offensive (Score:3, Interesting)
Nah, people here... (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Fireworks in 3...2...1... (Score:5, Interesting)
The entirely surreal thing is that in the first century or so of Christianity, the Romans basically viewed Christians as Atheists. If you're Polytheistic with many gods, Monotheists are preciously close to Atheists in your view. The idea is one is really not too far from zero.
Even more similar, is that Roman religion and Roman civic/business life were rather heavily intertwined. So eschewing one was interpreted as a slight against the other. Christians were often somewhat outcast because they wouldn't participate in the social/civic/business norms of Roman sacrifices, etc. So most certainly back then Christians were viewed as "not REAL Romans" because of this.
It's an embarassment (Score:5, Interesting)
I am an Oklahoma resident, and a Christian. I have no problem with the Ten Commandments, but anyone who bothers to actually read both can see that the first four (and possibly five) commandments are clearly in contention with the constitution. Very often, Christians, in their simplicity, when thinking about the Ten Commandments, only have in mind commandments 6,7,8, and 9 (or 5, 6, 7, and 8 depending on how they are enumerated). Allowing such a monument to be erected on public land using private funds, gets around the law, but only opens a pandora's box of other problems. It was inevitable that this would happen.
The hypocrisy in Oklahoma is this: you can get people to donate money like crazy to erect useless monuments, yet about 1/5th of the state's population doesn't know where their next meal is coming from.
This is one Oklahoma Christian that despises that monument.
Re:Fireworks in 3...2...1... (Score:5, Interesting)
If you want real religious nut-cases, here are some [theguardian.com] who went about London trying to "impose" Sharia law on otherwise peaceful Londoners going about their own quiet, lawful business.
This is the problem with religion. At the moment it just happens to be Islam that's in fashion with the young and impressionable.
The court had been told that Horner and the 23-year-old man drove alongside Joshua Bilton and Anna Reddiford in Bethnal Green and yelled at them through a megaphone. Horner shouted: "Let go of each other's hands. This is a Muslim area!" The couple initially believed it was a joke but the group repeated the warning until they let go of each other's hands.
The world is full of nut-cases who think they know better than everyone else and who think it is their business to "put things in order."
The older I get, the less I respect the "religious" (of all religions, not just Islam).
Re:Fireworks in 3...2...1... (Score:5, Interesting)
Weirdly, that seems to be one reason the new pope is unpopular with the evangelical right: the left like him [foxnews.com].
Re: Fireworks in 3...2...1... (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Ten Commandments are "overtly Christian"? (Score:4, Interesting)
The monument is overtly Christian - note the book illustrated top-left: http://peoplesworld.org/ten-commandments-monument-spurs-controversy-in-oklahoma/ [peoplesworld.org]
Also note the voting record and recorded religion of the guy whose family funded it and who introduced the bill permitting it in the first place: http://votesmart.org/candidate/key-votes/106671/mike-ritze#.UqZHmZGELK4 [votesmart.org]
So the intent seems to be overtly Christian, even if the Ten Commandments are shared by many religions.
Re:Fireworks in 3...2...1... (Score:5, Interesting)
This is the problem with religion. At the moment it just happens to be Islam that's in fashion with the young and impressionable.
No, that's the problem with selfish idiots.
Religion is just like any other tool: in the right hands it does a job, in the wrong hands people get hurt. I mean, really, you might as well be trying to convince the world that ideas themselves are deadly weapons.
A bible sitting on a table is no more dangerous than any other inanimate, non-volatile* object at a state of rest.
* because you know if I didn't qualify that, some idiot would come along with some "dur, bomb!" comment. Hell, I half expect it anyway.
Re:Offensive (Score:4, Interesting)
Those of us who don't believe in Zeus or G-Zeus, we still look at the 10 commandments as a fairly reasonable list of ways to go about your life...
1-4 get ignored -- straight up invisible unicorn stuff.
5: Respect MaMa and PaPa. -- A fairly good idea. Listen to the our folks, they're probably not as crazy as you think.
6: Don't kill. -- Seems reasonable. I don't want people killing me, so let's all do that.
7: Fidelity. -- Also reasonable. Honor your commitments and contracts.
8: No stealing. -- Reasonable for the same reason as murder. Let's all agree not to do that.
9: Tell the truth. -- Reasonable, and a good idea. White lies at cocktail parties not withstanding.
10. Don't covet. -- At least here it's debatable. The whole world revolves around coveting.
Re:Fireworks in 3...2...1... (Score:5, Interesting)
Likewise. I think it's refreshing to find a leader of a Christian faith that actually takes the teachings of Christ seriously.
I've never understood how you can read the New Testament and come away thinking the main thrust of Christ's teachings was anti-homosexuality, anti-abortion and pro-free market.
There's an author who refers to American Christianity as the "civil religion", because of how little it actually has to do with Christ or spirituality of any sort.
Re:Offensive (Score:4, Interesting)
Sure, 5-10 are pretty okay but it's really basic kindergarten-level bantering.
I don't think any rational person would ever say "Gee, I felt like cheating, stealing, and killing today, but I'm so glad we have those COMMANDMENTS to tell me not to!"
Why, Satanists are Christians. (Score:2, Interesting)
They're just on the other side.
Re:Fireworks in 3...2...1... (Score:5, Interesting)
I just wish that people would be more up-front about their theological motives, rather than waving their hands or making things up.
Most people aren't that deep. The vast majority of self-proclaimed "Christians" that I've had any sort of discussion with can't separate what is in the Bible from Christmas Carols or greeting cards. They have absolutely no real knowledge of what they believe. They go to church for the music, business contacts and fellowship. Theology has NOTHING to do with it.
I once thought ill of the Catholic Church for making it a capital crime for lay persons reading the Bible on their own. After attending a couple of Non-Denominational Evangelical church services, and their "Bible study" afterward where parishioners "interpreted" a couple of verses on their own... I feel the need to apologize to the Catholics. Those people came up with some seriously off-the-wall bullshit that frequently was 180 degrees opposite of what a verse literally said. Worse was two people would interpret the same verse in exactly opposite ways and they'd all nod sagaciously and agree they were both correct. Hands in the air and Praise Jesus!
Re:Fireworks in 3...2...1... (Score:4, Interesting)
... Do you think this action will do anything to change anyones mind?
It might get them to consider the fact that the government sanctioning ANY religion is a bad thing.
This plays right into what you would consider the Evangelical Christians paranoid delusion. They truly think there is a Satan, and that Satan has tricked the majority of people into denying God. And now, the Church of Satan is attacking them on an issue we'd really like them to change their mind about.
So what is your suggestion? Continue to support their delusion that American was founded as a Christian nation and that they can keep forcing others to abide by their specific religion's so called morals?
This might force some bullshit legal decision that will force the monuments down, ...
It's not a "bullshit legal decision," it is enforcing the 1st amendment that explicitly states that the government stays out of the religion business.
... but the one thing it will not do is change anyones mind or make the kind of social progress we really need.
This will change the minds of people that see the hypocrisy. It will remove religious endorsement from government property. It will give those that have other beliefs the courage to stand up for their rights. That's good enough.
Would Gandhi have done this? Martin Luther King?
Well, if it was some biblical justification for slavery, then yes, Martin Luther King would have down something. And Ghandi was a Hindu, so yeah. He may have had an issue with Britain claiming India was a nation founded on Christian values if anyone ever tried to claim such a thing. But this is all a non sequitur.
Re:Fireworks in 3...2...1... (Score:5, Interesting)
Polling on interracial marriage showed it increased in acceptance at a fairly steady rate of 1% per year.
Polls show acceptance of gay marriage rising 2% per year. It's currently about 55% support vs 39% against.
Approval of gay marriage is overwhelming among the younger generation, who largely view it as a civil rights issue. The strongest opposition among senior citizens, who are literally dropping dead day by day. There is nothing that can stand against the force of a generational shift.
You lost this fight. You lost this fight several years ago. YOU are the gadfly that has been swatted. Get used to the word "bigot", because you're going to be hearing increasingly often.
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Re:Fireworks in 3...2...1... (Score:5, Interesting)
Most awesome penis quote ever.