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Government Privacy

Snowden Document Says Dutch Secret Service Hacks Internet Forums 162

Posted by timothy from the for-your-own-collective-good dept.
vikingpower writes "In the ever-longer wake of the NSA scandal, much-respected Dutch newspaper NRC today reveals, in English, as mandated by the gravity of the occasion, that the Dutch secret service, the AIVD, hacks internet forums. And yes, that is gross misconduct against Dutch law. The service, whose headquarters are in Zoetermeer, did not yet comment upon the divulgence of the document from Edward Snowden's collection. Incensed Dutch parliamentarians are calling for an enquiry."
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Snowden Document Says Dutch Secret Service Hacks Internet Forums More

Snowden Document Says Dutch Secret Service Hacks Internet Forums

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  • There's only two things I hate in this world... (Score:3, Funny)

    by Sigvatr ( 1207234 ) on Saturday November 30, 2013 @09:36AM (#45560565)
    People who are intolerant of other people's cultures, and the Dutch

    • True and Insightful! Dutch here btw.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by Teun ( 17872 )
      Rod Stewart knew it too:
      The big bosomed lady with the Dutch accent / who tried to change my point of view / Her ad lib lines were well rehearsed / but my heart cried out for you /

  • Huh? What? (Score:4, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 30, 2013 @09:42AM (#45560577)

    Surprise! Every govt has an intelligence service and every intelligence service spends at least part of its time spying on its own citizens. If this is news to you, then you will surely be traumatized when you find out that every country tortures people during wars and most torture a few during times of peace. Who do you think Lady GaGa sells most of her recordings to?

    • Re:Huh? What? (Score:5, Insightful)

      by ThreeKelvin ( 2024342 ) on Saturday November 30, 2013 @09:51AM (#45560603)

      It might not be news, but it is still stuff that matters!

      I want the world I live in to be a good place, not a place where, as you put it, people are tortured and spied upon. I want to be able to sleep at night, knowing that my government works for basic human rights, including the right to privacy and the right to not be tortured in some prison camp!

      The more the wrongdoings of the governments of the west are exposed, the easier it is to stand up against them using non-violent means like voting and demonstrating. So, don't come here and tell me that it isn't in the category news and/or stuff that matters. I for one don't accept the world I live in, and I want to change it for the better.

    • Does that make it right? No? Then SO WHAT? (Score:5, Interesting)

      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 30, 2013 @09:55AM (#45560613)

      Sick of this "Everyone does it!".

      Child trafficking is rampant.

      So it's OK if I do it?

      • Re: (Score:3)

        by AHuxley ( 892839 )
        The problem with the UK and UK (NSA, GCHQ) weakened telco crypto is now we are seeing the '"Everyone does it!"" issues - they all have the codes to use in a domestic setting.
        When the local staff exit the gov security services (misconduct or lured by private sector cash flow) they take the gov level telco codes/skills with them to the highest bidder (other govs, faiths, firms, mercenaries).
        Weak US and UK encryption 'sold' to the world is junk at an international and domestic level.
        You really want to ensur

      • YES!

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by Goaway ( 82658 )

      Yes, let's accept despicable behaviour to make ourselves look jaded and cool on the internet. That is a great solution to all problems!

    • Apathic troll.
      Die.

    • Re: (Score:1)

      by mspohr ( 589790 )

      So your point is...?
      - We should all just shut up like good sheeple?
      - We should learn to like spying?
      - Torture is good!
      - They are saving us from the terrorists!
      - Lady Gaga?

    • In fact, it's Britney Spears who is used in this capacity: http://www.theguardian.com/music/2013/oct/29/britney-spears-navy-scare-somali-pirates [theguardian.com]

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by rtb61 ( 674572 )

      What is far more important is why and not just that they are doing. It is all smelling like existing dominant political parties and using political appointees infesting security organisations to subvert democratic principles to lock in their power and deny access to other political groups. This seems to be a growing global problem resulting from the loss of influence of the idiot box and it's ability to filter out content with insufficient capital access.

      It seems to be about the evil internet and the ric

  • Last sentence of the TFA:

    Incensed Dutch parliamentarians are calling for an enquiry

    Are the politicians really incensed ?

    Aww ...

    Please don't disappoint me.

    Please don't tell me that the Dutch politicians are all angels !!

    • Re: (Score:3)

      by mpol ( 719243 )

      It's just politics. None of the politicians came across as serious when the first revelations of Snowden came out. Only the SP wanted to ask questions to Snowden directly, but he definitely won't fly to Holland :).
      When it comes to this situation, there's no real party you can trust.

  • Color me surprised. (Score:5, Insightful)

    by rmdingler ( 1955220 ) on Saturday November 30, 2013 @09:50AM (#45560597) Journal
    Just because so many governments do it, it doesn't make it any more right. Quite the contrary. This revelation only removes "the Moral High Ground" from another nation's people.

    • Re: (Score:3)

      by amiga3D ( 567632 )

      I'm kind of shocked that people are so shocked. It's like they thought they had privacy or something. Amazing how many people are waking up to the fact they were living in a fantasy world.

      • I'm kind of shocked that people are so shocked.

        Who's shocked? People in places such as this, or 'normal' people? If the latter, you shouldn't be shocked; they've always been unintelligent.

      • Re: (Score:1)

        by Anonymous Coward

        So let me get this straight. Before all this revelations, people who talked about espionage like this where named tinfoils and laughed upon. And now after these revelations people who complain are told that they are idiots since everyone always knew that this was going on.

        Yeah, that makes perfect sense...

        • I do not know to a five nines degree of causality that being smarter makes you more jaded. Old age will do it too, but I suspect the loss of naivete comes quicker to the better thinkers. And yes, as this is the Holiday Inn Express of websites, I will stipulate that posting on /. does indeed make you smarter.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by amiga3D ( 567632 )

          I wonder what people thought intelligence gathering agencies did. I wonder what they thought all those antenna farms the NSA built decades ago were for. This stuff has been mentioned for ages. Hoover was tapping phones back in the 50's and 60's of so called "radicals" and that was pretty much common knowledge. Did people think things were improving? Anyone who thought they could pick up a phone and have a private conversation have been deluding themselves for many, many years.

          • The people that talked about it were lumped in with the tinfoil hat mob and the newspapers were not allowed to print much about it. Any serious discussion was labelled as a "conspiracy theory" then later as "Xfiles shit". People were ridiculed for referring to what agencies were up to in Central America, things that are now in mainstream history. People thought "if it's real it will be in the Washington Post", and when it wasn't they thought it must be bullshit.
            So "common knowledge" to a lot of people wa

            • Re: (Score:2)

              by amiga3D ( 567632 )

              I grew up in the 60's and 70's and I think most people were aware that this stuff was going on although maybe not to the degree. For the most part the attitude was "so what, I've got nothing to hide." I really don't think most people think privacy is such a big deal. Here in the geek world it's blown up to be a sign of tyranny but I think Joe Public isn't quite so outraged. Even with the Snowden files dribbling in the public outcry isn't that imperious for something to be done. Spy agencies spy on peop

      • We are shocked by the incredibly broad scope. We are shocked by the brazen 'Yes we are spying on all of you, what are you going to do about it?'.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by AHuxley ( 892839 )
        In parts of the world you need a real court document or use bureaucrats that have legal clearance.
        The NSA, DEA "parallel construction" telco idea can have many legal issues that most countries have faced or know never to get pulled into again.
        Every top criminal can pay for insights into the domestic operation/tech policy formation of surveillance via their police, lawyers, press, judicial contacts.
        They will never be caught or can bribe/counter most gov efforts.
        Most countries understand that a defendant

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by tlhIngan ( 30335 )

        I'm kind of shocked that people are so shocked. It's like they thought they had privacy or something. Amazing how many people are waking up to the fact they were living in a fantasy world.

        Yeah, it's like people are surprised that the actions they do in public (i.e., anything you do on the Internet) actually can be watched, observed and noticed by people.

        I mean, if you want to keep something private, or want some privacy, you keep that stuff under wraps. You don't go post it online or anything where other pe

    • But not from other people. (Score:1)

      by Anonymous Coward

      I am not my government.

      I do not want this.

      Therefore I can be outraged at YOUR government's villainy just fine, thank you.

    • Re: (Score:1)

      by Anonymous Coward

      "This revelation only removes "the Moral High Ground" from another nation's people."

      considering that the Dutch government is actually angry about this, and not defending it like the US government is, no I do not at all think this removes the moral high ground.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by khallow ( 566160 )

        considering that the Dutch government is actually angry about this

        It's probably more a credit to the Dutch people than their government.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by Yvanhoe ( 564877 )
      This, however, answered a question I had: the NSA probably has access to half the forums in the world without needing any kind of attack. I was wondering if other services were happy to ask for NSA help or tried to independently get the information they needed.

  • /. and mysql? (Score:2, Interesting)

    by plankrwf ( 929870 )

    The real question is, of course, if Slashdot is using mySQL as well.

    (Don't bother: if you did not read the article, you will not understand the comment)

    • Re:/. and mysql? (Score:5, Funny)

      by Anonymous Coward on Saturday November 30, 2013 @10:14AM (#45560705)

      (Don't bother: if you did not read the article, you will not understand the comment)

      Haha... very clever -- nearly tricked me into reading the article! We on Slashdot know better than that!

  • And yes, that is gross misconduct against Dutch law.

    Just because Snowden alleges anything doesn't necessarily mean that thing is true. Snowden must provide enough proof (be it direct or indirect) for his claims to be actually taken seriously.

    Therefore, by logic, the OP should have actually commented "what WOULD BE gross misconduct against Dutch law".

    • "Snowden says all dogs go to heaven!"

    • Re:"is" vs "would" (Score:5, Insightful)

      by vikingpower ( 768921 ) on Saturday November 30, 2013 @10:51AM (#45560889) Homepage Journal
      I am the original poster. Snowden never alleged that this is against Dutch law. The newspaper that published this ( in the very early morning hours, btw, they did not wait for daybreak and people getting out of bed ) alleges it. So do I. I read the law that governs the AIVD's activities. This is clearly outside of the framework set by that law: "... and [ is allowed ] to infiltrate organizations which endanger national or public security...". Now, an internet forum is not an "organization which endangers national or public security", unless you live in Iran, North Korea or China.
      • some of the users might be which is presumably the justification - its the same when you tap the phones ATT isn't the target one or more of the users of the service is

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by Teun ( 17872 )
        A repeat from a previous post I made:
        I just read a statement by the responsible minister Plasterk who says he feels the AIVD (secret service) is working within the law.

        He refuses to go into detail but admits the AIVD is targeting fora where people are called upon to take part in violence and fora with violent video's. He states the authority (CTIVD) tasked with supervision of the secret services did not see reasons to correct the activities of the services.

        I must agree with him (and against you) that

      • Now, an internet forum is not an "organization which endangers national or public security"

        Actually, the legal justification for this is that the internet forum is the ONLY way in which these people meet, exchange ideas, put together timetables, and organize. Which means that the forum members are an organization and the forum is the embodiment of that organization.

        While one can (and lots of people will!) certainly argue the point, it's not without merit. I don't condone *anything* the AIVD does, including this, because their main function is to protect the status quo and that only coincidentally

      • The problem is precisely that this absurd interpretation of the words "criminal organisation" is used with regards to internet forums. Apparently, the fact that some people on forums might be dangerous terrorists (of the Muslim persuasion, according to the AIVD, because as we know extreme right movements never bomb anything...) means that the whole forum can be considered a criminal organisation and makes it okay to siphon up all user data, including that of innocent users.

        The other problem is that the law

    • sorry "gross misconduct against Dutch law" doesn't even make legal sense can you quote the dutch RIPA law which says that what they did is not allowed?

  • The AIVD did comment, even before the NRC published the article: https://www.aivd.nl/actueel/@3033/interception/ [www.aivd.nl] (Dutch)
    And after the article was published: https://www.aivd.nl/actueel/@3034/reactie-nrc/ [www.aivd.nl] (Dutch)

    According to them, this is allowed by the current law. However, a lot of parties in parliament and expers don't agree with this assesment and are starting actions to disallow this kind of investigation.

    • s/expers/experts

    • "Mass interception of telecommunications, for example by means of satellites, does not require the approval of the minister, because its content is not being processed and thus -according to the law- does not infringe the secrecy of correspondence, which includes telephone and telegraph. "

      Basically, they are saying that they can intercept everything and store it in the haystack, and as long as it is not processed, no privacy has been violated. They use the analysis of metadata to obtain targeted approva

  • At the risk of this being a very Dutch-centric (Score:3)

    by bytesex ( 112972 ) on Saturday November 30, 2013 @10:22AM (#45560737) Homepage

    - post (damn Slashdot constraints on the length of the subject)

    It looks like the scandal in The Netherlands about the NSA from what is revealed by Snowden, is mainly the *lack* of anything scandalous at all. There was a four-page article in a leading newspaper the other week about it, and the most it could claim was that we were infiltrated from 1947 until 1968 and that, every now and then, they might take a poorly protected mySQL database on some poor slob's website.

    I don't mean to sound like those other 'security experts' who feign fatigue and familiarity with NSA's practices, but this one mainly stood out by its complete and utter boringness, I tell you.

  • Reminds me of the scene in Iron Sky when the President asks "OK, anybody who doesn't have an armed space station raise their hand."
  • News Flash! Intelligence agencies caught gathering intelligence! Film at 11!

  • Ot should that be "whose client they are".
    Who gives.

  • While certain diplomatic and economic relations are under strain and protests go on all over, it's important to note that none of the surveillance and other civil rights and outright illegal activity has slowed or stopped at all. In some ways it seems to have increased.

    Demanding that these activities cease is action #1.

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