GCHQ, European Spy Agencies Cooperate On Surveillance 145
jones_supa writes "Edward Snowden papers unmask that the German, French, Spanish and Swedish intelligence services have all developed methods of mass surveillance of internet and phone traffic over the past five years in close partnership with Britain's GCHQ eavesdropping agency. The bulk monitoring is carried out through direct taps into fibre optic cables and the development of covert relationships with telecommunications companies. A loose but growing eavesdropping alliance has allowed intelligence agencies from one country to cultivate ties with corporations from another to facilitate the trawling of the web. The files also make clear that GCHQ played a leading role in advising its European counterparts how to work around national laws intended to restrict the surveillance power of intelligence agencies."
Re:Lies! (Score:4, Insightful)
The statement is that the others are also spying on their population and that they are cooperation on that. However, this is different to spying on state personal, presidents or chancellors. That's why the German Chancellor had no problem when Snowden revealed that the world population is spied on by the US. We all assumed that she as any other government was in on it. Spying on herself and here government is a total different story for her. It is save to assume that Germany is not spying on the US government, as they do not have the capabilities.
Re:Really? (Score:5, Insightful)
Good job missing the essential point. The problem is that spies agency of our countries don't consider other spy agency as their enemies but as their allies. We citizens are considered the enemy by our own spy agencies and spy agencies around the world collaborate with each other to spy on normal citizens. I's not USA vs Europe. It's spy agencies vs citizens.
Re:No shit.. (Score:5, Insightful)
Same thing happened in the US to a large extent, but there's a big difference between "everybody knows" and serious evidence. The former can be shrugged off a lot more easily.
P.S. Looks like us Yanks aren't the only ones who should be grateful to Snowden.
P.P.S. I do get some satisfaction from being able to shut up overly smug Europeans (I don't mean you). I can be very critical of my country, and except for stupid anti-American rants, I don't mind others doing so. What I hate is smug superiority - and this shows that their shit stinks too.
Re:Lies! (Score:5, Insightful)
Maybe the German agencies don't have the capability to spy on the US government, maybe they do. You certainly don't know.
However there are plenty of other governments in the world, and I'd bet that the German agencies are spying on a significant number of them.
Don't put your head in the sand. This is a universal problem.
Re:It's all a sham (Score:4, Insightful)
"they can't itemize a list of the terrorist operations they've intercepted and stopped." - for obvious reasons.
But the real problem with it is that it's all self-certified, self-inspected and self-overseen, with secret courts and secret interpretations of existing law.
I'm curious - will the tone here change? (Score:5, Insightful)
One of the things we're learning from Snowden's releases is that, apparently, many/most European spy agencies are behaving much like the US and British agencies. So will people get as outraged about the behavior of their own country's government? Will they speak as disparagingly about their own fellow "sheeple" as they like to do about Americans? Or will they maybe pay a little lip service, then get back to droning on about the NSA and idiot Americans?
It seems to me we ALL need to let our own governments know this is intolerable. And the statement that "everyone else is doing it" is no more of an excuse for a country than it is for an 11 year old.
Re:No shit.. (Score:2, Insightful)
Ha! We all knew our shit stank long before this - here in Sweden the spying was mostly in the open - our govt enacted the "FRA-law" openly to allow the military signal intelligence agency FRA to tap all cables crossing our borders, and the EU enacted the Data retention Directive forcing ISPs to log all call meta data for an extended period of time.
This is a global problem. But, the US is also taking the lead. Most of this stuff originates from the US, but it infects everyone.
Snowden is playing a good game (Score:5, Insightful)
He's exposing things we all figured were true and then some.
And the release order is also well thought out, expose the US's complete global surveillance operation, wait for EU leaders to react, and then release that those EU leaders are effectively doing the same thing.
Given the level of surveillance, which at this point makes conspiracy theorist's claims seem conservative, this seems to be THE chance for actual change.
I doubt it though, Newspeak will be provided - "We are no longer monitoring you", while the truth will be that they are. Everyone will still be.
The real question will be whether people buy into the "open" future, seek to protect their privacy, or just don't give a shit.
The real problem is that most people just won't give a shit. This is the result of an educational system that doesn't promote thinking. The masters have won the game.
Re:I'm curious - will the tone here change? (Score:2, Insightful)
So will people get as outraged about the behavior of their own country's government?
I very much hope so. Personally, I live in Germany and am thoroughly disgusted at Merkel's pretended indignation: I'm dead sure she knew more than she admits.
I sincerely hope we manage to reign in this rampant overreach of the secret services, in USA and elsewhere.
And no, I don't see any reason for smugness.
European governments stonewalling ... (Score:5, Insightful)
Not very surprisingly, the news about European countries' secret agencies cooperating with GCHQ and NSA easily explain the reluctance of said countries' politicians to really go after the US and UK for spying on them and their citizens ... after all, it's the local agencies that do the work ... too bad that too few of the citizens care ... ("I have nothing to hide")
Guess what they say is true: Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean you're not being watched ...
Re:Really? (Score:4, Insightful)
We citizens are considered the enemy by our own spy agencies and spy agencies around the world collaborate with each other to spy on normal citizens.
Ordinary citizens aren't the enemy, but the enemy typically hides among them. Terrorists don't tend to live in their own private "terrorist army" barracks, they hide among ordinary citizens until they strike, which may not be in the same country in which they live. That is a crucial distinction that for some reason a lot of people seem to have a hard time understanding.
The Hamburg cell [bbc.co.uk] is a perfect example. They lived in Hamburg, Germany, plotting and preparing for their attack. The actual attacks they participated in were in New York, Washington DC, and Pennsylvania, in the US on 9/11/2001.
If you think the struggle in the West is between spy agencies and citizens, you fail to understand this basic and easy to understand fact. I'm curious as to why?