Federal Prosecutors, In a Policy Shift, Cite Warrantless Wiretaps As Evidence 321
schwit1 sends this quote from the NY Times "The Justice Department for the first time has notified a criminal defendant that evidence being used against him came from a warrantless wiretap, a move that is expected to set up a Supreme Court test of whether such eavesdropping is constitutional. The government's notice allows the defendant's lawyer to ask a court to suppress the evidence by arguing that it derived from unconstitutional surveillance, setting in motion judicial review of the eavesdropping. ... The practice contradicted what [Solicitor General Donald B. Verrilli Jr.] had told the Supreme Court last year in a case challenging the law, the FISA Amendments Act of 2008. Legalizing a form of the Bush administration’s program of warrantless surveillance, the law authorized the government to wiretap Americans’ e-mails and phone calls without an individual court order and on domestic soil so long as the surveillance is “targeted” at a foreigner abroad. A group of plaintiffs led by Amnesty International had challenged the law as unconstitutional. But Mr. Verrilli last year urged the Supreme Court to dismiss the case because those plaintiffs could not prove that they had been wiretapped. In making that argument, he said a defendant who faced evidence derived from the law would have proper legal standing and would be notified, so dismissing the lawsuit by Amnesty International would not close the door to judicial review of the 2008 law. The court accepted that logic, voting 5-to-4 to dismiss the case."
There have been a lot of firsts (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Can someone remind me? (Score:5, Insightful)
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Can someone remind me? (Score:5, Insightful)
The US has an independent press that's always critical of the government, no matter which politcal party is in power, like the New York Times.
Was...was that a joke?
Patriot Act (Score:5, Insightful)
Bullshit standings (Score:5, Insightful)
The US can kill an American [wikipedia.org] and his teenage son, yet no one can challenge the action because they were not directly affected. If all the relatives are taken out in one action, then the US is free and clear.
We can't just protest to have unconstitutional laws removed, we have to prove they were used on us. Simply keep quiet about parallel construction [wikipedia.org] and you're good to go. If the defendant says "yes they did" and the US says "no we didn't", then the constitutionality of the law makes no difference, the US is free and clear.
This thing about not challenging a law because it doesn't affect you is bullshit.
If a law is unconstitutional, then it should be possible to challenge the law on its face.
Re:The Bush Administrations argument... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Let's be clear. (Score:1, Insightful)
Actually it is an opportunity for the Supreme Court to rule on this question, which a number of appeals courts have. So far they have found that the power for the President to authorize this falls under Article II powers for national security purposes.
Although it is possible that due to the Supreme Court's ruling the interpretation of the law may change, it is entirely possible that it won't. One good thing that could come out of it is that it could help provide the broader public an opportunity to develop a better understanding of the law in this area. Many people have mistaken ideas about how the 4th Amendment actually works and blame the police, courts, and government in general for not complying with their mistaken ideas. Not every search requires a warrant, for example. That is long settled law. We'll see what happens.
Hopefully this won't be another case of the Obama administration in effect "taking a dive" to move the law in a direction desired by its more radical members.
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Can someone remind me? (Score:5, Insightful)
They have the power to fix it, if they care enough.
By... not voting for Bush?
I wonder how that'll turn out.
Re:Can someone remind me? (Score:5, Insightful)
Having lived in East Germany, I can tell you. East Germans didn't pretend they were free.
So you're saying that America is better at propaganda than East Germany was?
Re:Patriot Act (Score:0, Insightful)
I assure you that it is legally and logically impossible to suspend the Constitution. Neither government, its laws, or anyone in it has any kind of divine mandate. All authority in this country comes solely from the Constitution.
Re:Can someone remind me? (Score:5, Insightful)
You HAVE read 1984, right? We are actually in a Forever War. The War on Drugs has become the War on Terrorism, and every year our "police forces" become more and more militarized.
In fairness to Eric (Score:5, Insightful)
It's sad, really (Score:5, Insightful)
It's sad to see the US turning into a police state. Or perhaps it's too late, that's been done, and they're just dotting the I's and crossing the T's.
If this evidence is deemed acceptable, you can expect the scope of the surveillance to expand dramatically as there is suddenly a reason for tapping the people in-country: prosecution. You can expect widespread surveillance to capture gang bangers, drug dealers, and probably even the guy next door who works "under the table" to avoid paying the IRS.
Modern technology gives the government powers far over and above anything that has ever been available before when it comes to monitoring the population. And not merely monitoring, but controlling. Unlike with television, the "message" you get on the internet can be customized and tailored based on where and how you're surfing from. Newspaper sites have already been doing this for years, tailogring the news based on which nation someone is surfing from.
I must admit I would never have predicted the abuses that I'm seeing happen. There was so much hope for the benefits of the internet when it was starting that no one ever really discussed the potential for abuse. Worse, you can't even try to stop the abuse because if you implement the end-to-end encryption that can prevent it, the government comes down on the companies involved to force them to stop. You're not allowed to maintain your privacy through a service like LavaBit in this new surveillance society.
There was a Sylvester Stallone movie years ago that porttrayed an idyllic society above ground where it was illegal to even swear, and where in-room monitors spat out tickets for such offenses automatically.
Is that where our world is headed? Towards a stale and staid managed society where any crime is a major shock because the people have stopped even thinking about performing criminal acts because they expect to be caught immediately if they try? It sounds like a lifestyle of fear and repression far beyond anything even the Nazis or East Germany ever dreamed of.
I'd say that it all starts with this case, but we all know that's not true. It started years ago, when the surveillance began. This case is merely a continuation of the world government's mission to enslave humanity.
Re:Patriot Act (Score:5, Insightful)
Remember - we "knew" a lot of what Snowden reported. We just didn't have public awareness. I could search to see when the first post on Slashdot told us about things like Echelon and Carnivore. Those programs have simply evolved and grown over the past two decades, Snowden didn't actually report anything "new". We gave our tacit consent years ago, and the NSA has taken the ball and run with it. Let's be grateful that Snowden managed to wake up some of the masses, but let's not exaggerate what he has done.
Re:I can't wait until we vote Bush/Cheney out (Score:5, Insightful)
"expanded it 100-fold."
How can you possibly know that? The Bush administration was arguably the most secretive administration ever. The fact that the Obama administration has let slip 100 times more than the Bush admin did, does not indicate that Obama is more prying than Bush. It MAY only mean that Obama/Biden is more inept than Bush/Cheney. That, plus there are more whistle blowers.
Maybe that was arguable a few years ago.
It isn't any more.
Obama's administration has made a mockery of FOIA requests, turned the IRS into a politcal attack dog going after political enemies, has had it's Attorney General held in contempt of Congress for failing to turn over documents, and hounds whistleblowes to the ends of the Earth.
Contrast all that to how the Bush administration treated Michael Scheuer and Joe Wilson when they leaked classified data critical of Bush during elections.
And I'd venture to say the way Obama fumbled events in Syria is pretty good evidence that's Obama is WAAAAY more inept than Bush.
Re:Can someone remind me? (Score:5, Insightful)
I can see it now, gun nuts getting blown to bits by missiles and bombs they never even saw coming before firing a single shot.
Get over yourselves, you aren't protecting us from anything.
UNDER THE POLICE STATE ... (Score:5, Insightful)
... there is NOTHING FREE !!!
I am speaking on experience.
I am an American, a naturalized American citizen.
I came from China.
I, and many others, risking our lives and swam to Hong Kong back in the 1970's. They were shooting at us, back then.
We risked our lives not because we were poor (and we were) but because there was NO FREEDOM for the people.
Everything that we did - who your friends were, where you been to, what you did, why you did what you did, everything - was under the watchful eyes of the BIG BROTHER.
I went to the United States precisely because, back then, the United States of America was the only country that could guarantee my freedom, because, back then, the government of the United States of America still had respect for The Constitution.
I became an American citizen precisely because I found the freedom that I had longed for.
That was back then.
Not now.
Nowadays, the so-called "freedom" has all but evaporated.
When the prosecutors (or rather, persecutors ) can charge people with warrantless wiretaps , what is the difference between the United States of America and the former East Germany under Stasi or China under CCP ?
Back when I became a naturalized citizen of the United States of America, my new government was still operating under the Constitution of the United States.
No more.
Under the Obama administration, I am sorry to say, the Constitution of the United States has become as valuable as soiled disposable diaper.
As an American, I am sad.
As one who was from an oppressed state, risking live in order to gain freedom, I am HORRIFIED.
I am watching THE COUNTRY THAT I ADOPTED turning into just like the one I ran away from.
Re:I can't wait until we vote Bush/Cheney out (Score:5, Insightful)
Nobody threatened to default on our debt unless we repealed the PATRIOT Act, though.
Re:Can someone remind me? (Score:5, Insightful)
This has been true since the country was formed. Why is it only in the last 30 years that S.W.A.T. has been used at the drop of a hat and average police regularly go out with military-level gear?
No, we shouldn't. Armed yes, militarized no. The militarization is due largely to the drug war and departments dumping money into shit they don't need to and assuming a stance of force over communication with the citizens of whatever city they feel like pointing guns at.
Re:In fairness to Eric (Score:5, Insightful)
He's a representative sample of what the U.S. government has become, and that's by no means limited to either component party of the Ruling Class.
He's not a product of an entirely faceless process. He's an individual who has chosen his allegiances, as do all individuals. That must not be disregarded when measuring what sort of man he is.
The Left Wing and the Right Wing are two body parts of the same Beast. It's a monument to human stupidity that so few seem to truly comprehend that. The purpose of a two-party system is to play "good cop, bad cop" and to periodically switch roles for maximum mindfuck effect. The Founding Fathers foresaw what a two-party system would become because they understood and chose not to delude themselves about a few basic principles of reality. The understanding component is easy and painless compared to the decision to accept no delusion, however comfortable and reassuring it may be.
Re:Can someone remind me? (Score:5, Insightful)
Bingo. Even at the height of prohibition, when Al Capone and his ilk were carrying Thompsons, the police forces throughout most of our nation were still carrying six-shooters. City police forces didn't respond to Tommy guns by purchasing tanks and bazookas. Alright, so maybe New York, Los Angeles and Chicago don't have tanks today, but they do have APC's that they refer to as "rescue vehicles". Mounting a machine gun or a small cannon on one of these is simple enough. A similar model with a main gun isn't much of a reach at all.
Re:POLICE STATE OF THE FREE! (Score:5, Insightful)
Eric Holder can do no wrong because he is a black man. Furthermore, now that we have black man Jah Rasta Johnson [wikipedia.org] as the DHS leader, nobody can complain about performance or creeping fascism because both are black men and to criticize black men is racist. And racism is a hate crime. Blacks are, after all, predisposed to crime, and will naturally resort to the appropriate criminal behavior even after an Ivy league law education. It's what we free-thinking tea-party individuals like to call "Chicago Politics."
Do you disagree, you racist motherfucker? Huh? Do you?
-- Ethanol-fueled
Chicago has a long history of corrupt politics, as do several other major cities. To focus on the group identity is to distract attention away from the power plays that are being made. That is simply a strategic error. That corruption is becoming more inclusive and diverse along with better and more worthy enterprises is hardly relevant to the state of the republic today. It really does not matter who is at the helm, under what holy name they crusade, with which justification they advance towards fascism. These matters are academic and within the realm of mere trivia.
What really matters is how and why the average person does not wake up and realize that the America they were taught to believe in does not exist, and how their own philosophical, intellectual, moral, and character flaws prevented them from seeing this at the very beginning. There is indeed something wrong with a person who argues passionately about minutia like sports and television shows while their nation is decaying. None of that could be an accident.
Re:UNDER THE POLICE STATE ... (Score:4, Insightful)
The real problem is, we now have an entire generation that has never known the difference. We have too many people who are products of their environment, knowing only what they were taught, who lack the initiative to really look into the history and understand the changes that have occurred. To them, all of this is necessary and normal. It's a problem of inertia.
Did anyone actually RTFA? (Score:5, Insightful)
I know it's very fashionable to compare US to the communist countries, which most of you haven't lived in, and aren't even old enough to have seen on TV. I did - and let me just say it's nothing alike.
Still, perhaps it's worth reading the "FA" to understand exactly what it means?
tl;dr; version - some US prosecutors have been using evidence so derived in criminal cases without notifying defendants. Sometime during this summer someone higher up in Justice Department became aware of this (I'll take this claim at face value for now) and after some discussion (and presumably some opposition from those prosecutors who found the practice very convenient) it was decided that hiding the warrantless wiretaps from defendants is not acceptable (based on the way the law is interpreted).
Based on that, find 3 differences between US and East Germany. I'll take a stab at it:
1. There is a discussion in the prosecutorial branch wrt. legality of application of such law, and the outcome of that discussion is factual information provided to defendants, that may aid in their defense.
2. The court will take this in consideration, and we will see this debated, probably at every level of judiciary all the way to Supreme Court.
3. We are reading about all of this in the major media news outlet.
Do you need me to tell you which of these items did not apply to the "Soviet Russia"? You, people, have no f-ing idea and your childish fits undermine legitimate efforts to create more transparent government and more just society.
Re:UNDER THE POLICE STATE ... (Score:2, Insightful)
It's called "The straw that broke the camels back", the camel always remembers that last straw and who put it their and tends to forget all the others that piled on there.
Basically Uncle Tom Obama the choom gang coward looks far far worse because he promised time and time again to be far far better than his predecessors and instead, well, history has proven that while he is a skilled teleprompter reader his actions prove him to be a far right sycophant.
As for the individual, mouthing off is mouthing off, when he actually tried to commit the crime is the only time he should be arrested. Cause trouble in another country, provide them with the evidence and let them choose how to deal with it. Don't be same lame arsed douche hunting a promotion and screw everything up to feed your ego and corrupt justice. What a bloody asshat. Chances are they knew the guy was just bullshitting and chicken out, so they went with the illegal evidence rather than getting a warrant based upon that evidence to gather legal evidence. Now comes the big waste of tax payer dollars for nothing.
Re:UNDER THE POLICE STATE ... (Score:5, Insightful)
We have very similar stories, except I am from Africa, and the bit about the swimming. I agree with you entirely.
I have noticed that people born in the USA take their liberty for granted, and are careless with it. On the other hand, those who have seen oppression (and I have seen the trajectory we are once already) understand the real and present danger we face.
Some of us who were born there do love and cherish our liberty and recognize the many ways in which it is being trampled with impunity. The problem is, we are drowned out by so many who think that professional sports, pop music, consumerism, television, and personal dramas are much higher priority. It's a problem of values and a problem of dehumanization as explained by Erich Fromm.
You absolutely must have a broken people with malleable values and loyalties before you can have a police state. A strong, intact, whole people who are relatively self-sufficient and value ideals far beyond their own convenience cannot be trampled in this manner.
Re:UNDER THE POLICE STATE ... (Score:4, Insightful)
Your honour, integrity and honesty are never ever beyond your control. To abandon those is not to be a puppet but a sell out, a honourable liar without integrity. That is always in your control and always your choice. No, cog, Obama is a co-conspirator and a betrayer of all he pretended to stand for.
Re:Can someone remind me? (Score:5, Insightful)
A well-armed and coordinated populace can throw out a well-trained and well-funded military. All you need to do is coordinate the American gun-owners into an organized resistance, which in a country this size, you'll have to do via telephone, email, text message, postal mail, or simply physically travelling around.
And we all know that the government can't track you when you.... aww, crap!
Re:UNDER THE POLICE STATE ... (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes, Obama's failure is particularly profound because he did the opposite of what he promised. But your diagnosis is wrong.
I used to be a registered Democrat and I voted for Obama. But it is clear to me now that there is little difference between Democrats, Republicans, progressives, and conservatives: they all are beholden to their own special interests, and they are all using laws and regulations to enrich their buddies, whether they be unions or corporations. And the NSA, police, military, and government employees are every politician's buddy and get what they want. So stop paying lip service to the propaganda that "the left" somehow has your interests at heart.
What we need is more politicians that fight for individual liberties and reduce the size of the US federal government.
Re:POLICE STATE OF THE FREE! (Score:4, Insightful)
Not even that. It's governed by tribalism. The voters consider the two parties in much the same as as sports fans consider their teams.