Rental Business Aaron's Admits Role In Spying On Customers 119
New submitter bhv writes "After firmly denying that it used software on its rent-to-own computers to spy on customers, including capturing passwords, sensitive financial information and images of private intimate moments, Atlanta-based Aaron's has owned up to the practice in a settlement with the Federal Trade Commission."
Re:All I can say to that is... (Score:5, Informative)
It's a rent to own store and from a brief stint working in one (quite a few years ago) I can say that most of the clients were people who had bad credit and too poor or unable to save enough to buy *new* furniture/electronics outright.
How it works? They take full MSRP (which usually gives you 100% markup) double *that* price then divide up into payments. So as an example a living room set with a $1500 MSRP (which probably cost them $700) would end up being $125 a month OR $57.70 a week (Easy Payments!). If the customer paid through the two years required to own it they would have paid $3000 for a couch they could have gotten for sale elsewhere for about $1200.
The horrendous markup is more visible in electronics (a PS2 in it's day would have cost someone close to $1000 by the end of the year rent-to-own period).
You are totally correct. The best situation for a consumer in that situation is to get furniture from either Goodwill, the Salvation Army, Craigslist, or the local newspaper classifieds. If they still want *new* furniture, then they can enjoy the used stuff till they save enough to buy what they really want outright (and re-sell the used item).
Working that job made me realize that schools *must* have a personal finances class which goes over budgeting, avoiding scams, and setting up an affordable household.
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Another case of someone making their money off the class that can least afford to support themselves much less someone else.
We still have those RtO centers here, I'm not surprised they do as well as they do. Personally until a year ago my family was using a tv I had gotten from my brother that he was going to throw out during a move because the vertical hold was gone. I took it home and replaced a $0.25 resis
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A fool and their money were lucky to get together in the first place.
It's an immoral act to let a sucker keep his money.
Until they force someone to rent from them they aren't doing anything wrong.
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Should we let the "suckers" starve to death, vis a vis Darwinism?
Or should we work to cure their foolishness? Enlighten them to the error of their logic.
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Some people can't be cured. In that case, yes let Darwin handle it.
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No better lesson then getting burned.
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Other than sneaking voyeur photos of adults and children, banking details, various account passwords, etc.
That and preying on the least financially savvy. Indeed, many people do find that to be morally wrong.
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Ah yes, the old maxim "Everything is legal and proper to do until they close the cell door behind you."
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Somebodies going to get it.
Obviously, the highest utility is for me to get it.
Re:All I can say to that is... (Score:5, Interesting)
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splitting the cost of all of it between four guys for 8-10 months was reasonable
Seems reasonable. And for short term stuff (table for thanksgiving, big TV for Superbowl, bed for temporary guests, etc) it's fine. However the vast majority of people don't use it like this.
That said at 8 months (and a usual term of 24 months Rent to Own) you've paid up 8/24 = 1/3rd of the inflated cost. So for my example of the living room set, you and your roommates would have paid $1000 of a $1500 (full retail) living room set. At 10 months you would have paid $1250 (sale price for the item at a re
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Not to mention, if you're paying for the extra 2 months on a regular 1 year lease on the apartment anyway, why not just buy the furniture and leave it there over the summer? Then, for bonus points, you can just renew the lease, keep living there next school year and not have to move in and out at all!
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It serves a useful purpose, if you use it for a short term needs. When I was an undergraduate in upstate New York, the "College Housing" cartels charged more than double the market rate for furnished apartments with shorter-term leases. It made far more sense to rent an unfurnished apartment intended for the locals with a one year lease, and just pay the extra rent for the two months most of us weren't there in the summer. Since most 18-21 year olds don't own furniture, nor wanted to be responsible for moving / storing / dealing with it. we could annually rent a full living room set with a big television - no one was responsible for buying it, we didn't have to split up possessions between roommates at the end of the year, and splitting the cost of all of it between four guys for 8-10 months was reasonable. At the end of the academic term we would call up the rental company and have them pick it all up. Next fall, we'd get the latest and greatest for that year delivered and moved in. rinse and repeat.
Nice. We'd rent a house, hit up the goodwill/classfied ads (no craigslist in those days), and not worry about it. Shit would get thrashed, would never be able to rent it, because we'd have to pay full price for it because it would be damaged. Why? Because we were a bunch of 18+ year olds, living on our own and had no adult supervision. We'd have parties, because, well it's college and that is what you do. TV? why, we were in college, if we weren't partying, we were maybe studying.
Re:All I can say to that is... (Score:4, Funny)
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This is why all of my furniture is made from steel reinforced concrete. Sure, the pillows are a bit hard, but it's a small cost for peace of mind!
Sorry to hear that you are in county lock up.
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Wrap them in a dark blanket and leave them in the sun for a day or three.
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The sun is like 93 million miles away. That's a long trip to get rid of bed bugs.
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Re:All I can say to that is... (Score:5, Interesting)
Working that job made me realize that schools *must* have a personal finances class which goes over budgeting, avoiding scams, and setting up an affordable household.
The public schools already teach this. My daughter is in high school, and she had the class last year. It is called "Life Skills". They learn to budget and invest. They write a resume, dress in business attire, and attend a mock job interview. They also learn to plan and cook meals using a budget and nutritional information. It is an elective class, but nearly everyone takes it (it is an easy A, plus you get to make and eat cookies).
The problem is that some people are just fundamentally stupid and irresponsible. No amount of education is going to fix that. The main problem is that these people can vote, so their irresponsibility is inflicted on all of us. If you run up twice your disposable income in credit card debt to pay for useless bling, then why shouldn't the government do the same?
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it's a way of thinking... (Score:2)
it's instilled in us by our parent, friends, family, and community.
it's also common sense, so even those who don't get it from the above sources can reason their way through what they should be spending.
too many people just don't care, and live life on the edge, out of disregard for themselves, and the others that pick up the bill when the fall.
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Re:All I can say to that is... (Score:5, Insightful)
Working that job made me realize that schools *must* have a personal finances class which goes over budgeting, avoiding scams, and setting up an affordable household.
The public schools already teach this. My daughter is in high school, and she had the class last year. It is called "Life Skills". They learn to budget and invest. They write a resume, dress in business attire, and attend a mock job interview. They also learn to plan and cook meals using a budget and nutritional information. It is an elective class, but nearly everyone takes it (it is an easy A, plus you get to make and eat cookies).
The problem is that some people are just fundamentally stupid and irresponsible. No amount of education is going to fix that. The main problem is that these people can vote, so their irresponsibility is inflicted on all of us. If you run up twice your disposable income in credit card debt to pay for useless bling, then why shouldn't the government do the same?
You can not learn enough "Life Skills" in a semester of school. It's shit your parents need to teach you growing up.
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Temporary lay offs. - Good Times.
Easy credit rip offs. - Good Times.
Scratchin’ and surviving. - Good Times.
Hangin in a chow line - Good Times.
Ain’t we lucky we got ‘em - Good Times.
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....snip....
Working that job made me realize that schools *must* have a personal finances class which goes over budgeting, avoiding scams, and setting up an affordable household.
Yes.
I might note that the financial shell games that schools and local
governments play make me doubt that schools and local governments
understand money and finances at all.
I recently saw the below. Note how there was no mention of "your tax dollars".
Note that the locals spending the money did not have to levy the tax but rather
benefited from a larger taxation organization. Because the money is a 'grant'
the only option is to spend. This spending at more than arms length makes
it so very hard to budget a
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While I can reply close to my previous post, toss this into "Google"
"Specialized DUI and drugged driving training such as Standardized Field Sobriety Testing"
I get +900 results consider that this short little letter is one of a thousand, perhaps thousands.
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If the customer paid through the two years required to own it they would have paid $3000 for a couch they could have gotten for sale elsewhere for about $1200.
Except they couldn't have got it elsewhere because they couldn't pay $1200 all at once.
Yeah, it's expensive to be poor. But it's still better than not being able to have stuff at all.
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How it works? They take full MSRP (which usually gives you 100% markup) double *that* price then divide up into payments. So as an example a living room set with a $1500 MSRP (which probably cost them $700) would end up being $125 a month OR $57.70 a week (Easy Payments!). If the customer paid through the two years required to own it they would have paid $3000 for a couch they could have gotten for sale elsewhere for about $1200.
That's horrific. If they can afford $57.70 (should that be $28.85?) a week or $125 a month, they should be buying really cheap used furniture and saving up for something nicer, not submitting to exploitation. The problem is obviously our appalling optimism bias. People look towards the future and say: "So what if it costs more, things are going to turn around and get so much better in the future that I'll just be able to pay this off and not worry about the extra cost."
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Government hates competition... (Score:2)
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Prolly wanna turn down the squelch setting on your sarcasm detector a little . . . .
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The right wing doesn't hold her up they hold up her fictional novel in the same way that several Hollywood actors hold up L. Ron Hubbards Fictional religion.
A settlement? (Score:4, Insightful)
I would do jail time if I tried to pull that shit.
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On these sort of cases, corporations are not people.
But all the decisions and actions of a corporation will be decided/done by people. Whoever decided to install the spyware should be personally held liable and prosecuted. If no one will admit to it, then the company directors should carry the can.
Re:A settlement? (Score:5, Insightful)
because
You are not the government.
You are not a corporation.
You are not wealthy enough to own lawyers.
You are not wealthy enough to own politician.
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Jail time? You'd do that and then be a registered sex offender for activating the webcams.
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If you operated a business and some of your franchisees did something you didn't know about? Because that is the "that shit" you're talking about.
Franchisees got nailed, customers filed class action, Aarons had no defense due to prior suit.
" September 2012 â" The Federal Trade Commission settles spying claims against the maker of PC Rental Agent, Designerware LLC, as well as seven of Aaronâ(TM)s rent-to-own franchisees. The settlement bars the software maker and the franchisees from further spying
less sinister than the summary makes it out to be (Score:2)
Settlements are not admissions of guilt in the court of law, but certainly implies it. So the company added tracking software for this purpose: "The software was included on laptops and desktops so Aaron’s and its franchisees could recover unreturned computer equipment.". Granted it collected too much info.
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And did so without regard to payment status. And they activated the webcams.
IF they had confined that exclusively to cases where the rental was past due or lapsed strictly for the purpose of recovering the equipment, it would be a bit less sinister.
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They activated webcams? I didn't see that in the article, and WOW is that crossing a line. I take back my original comment.
First thing I do when I buy a new computer (Score:2)
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Re:First thing I do when I buy a new computer (Score:4)
IANAL, but "rent-to-own" seldom really functions as a rental; it's effectively an installment sales contract in which you pay more interest than your state allows on real installment loans, in return for having walk-away rights.
Re:First thing I do when I buy a new computer (Score:4)
IANAL, but "rent-to-own" seldom really functions as a rental; it's effectively an installment sales contract in which you pay more interest than your state allows on real installment loans, in return for having walk-away rights.
Although this is their target market, the "rent-to-own" purchases by the payday cash loan crowd, no sane people should
ever use them to actually buy something as the price is usually double or more before you're finished.
Using them as a rental is actually fairly reasonable though if you need furniture for a month or a big TV for a superbowl party.
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Ironically, most of Aarons' customers would use Wal-Mart for that (i.e., they'd "buy" the TV the day before the Superbowl, return it the day after, and thus spend nothing on the "rental").
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In upper middle market dept stores people buy expensive rugs for fancy house parties and then return them 3 days later as: "Not quite right for our new interior décor, unfortuantely."
"It really was disappointing as it looked so wonderful here in the shop."
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IANAL, but "rent-to-own" seldom really functions as a rental; it's effectively an installment sales contract in which you pay more interest than your state allows on real installment loans, in return for having walk-away rights.
Quite right. With the addition that when you miss one of the usury payments, they take the stuff back, often after you have paid several multiples of the retail price of the item.
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Do you realize that almost all states have mandatory reinstatement periods? California's for example is 1 year. If they take the stuff back, you have up to a year in CA to reinstate your account at where you were without losing any of the equity you had paid toward the goods.
Why, no I didn't know that. But then again, I don't buy from rent-to-own places.
I'm sure it is noted in the small print somewhere, if state law also requires for them to inform the customer, but I would bet that they don't exactly call attention to that fact.
Re:First thing I do when I buy a new computer (Score:4, Funny)
Apparently they weren't "rent-to-own" but rent-to-be-pwned.
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I have copies of the OEM versions of Vista and Windows 7 Home variants downloaded from Digital River. I have reinstalled Windows on several Acer and HP machines from these discs. Yes, you have to phone the 1-800 number to activate them, but for five minutes out of my life I have a legit Windows box without crapware or spyware. Okay, I do have to track down drivers in most cases, but still, it's worth the effort.
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I guess my point is that it didn't cost me anything, except a little time.
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The typical Rent-To-Own customer is not likely to know to do this, nor to have the skills to do this.
Some of us will say that they deserve what they get for not hiring a professional to administer their personal computer, since they sure as hell don't know what they're doing.
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Do you trust your original OS disk? :P
Let me guess, no jail time (Score:2)
I wonder if I would get a simple fine if I systematically hacked into thousands of people's computers to watch "intimate moments."
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I wonder if I would get a simple fine if I systematically hacked into thousands of people's computers to watch "intimate moments."
Go for it, and cite this settlement as precedent.
Equal protection under the law, right?
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Equal protection under equal money.
Our legal system is a fucking scam.
FREEZE! F.B.I.! (Score:2)
Some animals are more equal than others. This is my surprised face.
If corporations were really people, I would be able to end one by squeezing my fingers around it's throat.
Go for broke (Score:1)
Finance-charge heavy rent-to-own place that used spy techniques to get "images of private intimate moments"?
Looks like they figuratively have your balls in their hand two ways.
Incorporate (Score:1)
“It’s a huge issue, and there hasn’t been enough case law to sort this out,” he said. “There is a lot of gray area about what should be done and what shouldn’t be done.”
So if an indivdual does the same activity, it's Computer Fraud and Abuse... Jail Time, banned from electronic devices, whole world turned up-side-down.
BUT, if your a corporation. nada. "Don't do it again" penality.
Only in America.
That's what they do (Score:5, Informative)
and higher income idiots. rental place screws peop (Score:2)
I've seen some higher income people do this same idiocy, renting furniture and electronics
I have to laugh at this story. "Furniture rental store screws customers" - no shit.
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I don't understand the business case for this particular brand of spying. I don't see how things like passwords and financial data are going to help them recover a computer that wasn't returned. I can understand the webcam used for taking pictures of who is using the computer, or screenshots for looking at things like their Facebook account to identify the person by name, but other than that it seems like a huge overreach with no legitimate business purpose.
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As I understand the companies position on this... You are about correct. They had specific software that they would install so that they could track, find and recover laptops from folks who where not paying for them or had stolen them. This is unlikely a problem if it is spelled out in the contract and ONLY used when the contract says it would be used. However, some of the company's franchisees, and/or their employees apparently found out that the software could do other things at other times and started
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Aaron's and similar rental companies are built on taking advantage of lower income folks who are not good financial decision makers. While there is an element of that with many businesses, these rental companies take it to the extreme.
True, but low income doesn't necessarily mean stupid, and some of these people are smart enough to figure out how to turn the tables on exploitative rent-to-own operations. I knew a guy who would look for new rent-to-own stores, and when he found one he'd walk in and sign up for their very best home entertainment package, regardless of price, and have it shipped to his living room. He'd enjoy it for a few months, always being careful to pay in full and on time, but then, inevitably, some asshole would break
Can a rented PC install Linux? (Score:2)
Can a rented PC install Linux? Or have they modified it to keep its insecure spyware?
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Or being smart enough to install Linux is being smart enough to exploit Aaron's.
Restitution? (Score:2)
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manufacture and dissemination of child pornography (Score:2)
So, they took photos with the webcam and even admit those photos include children. If even one of those children is in a state of undress, they took that picture and shared it with their franchisees, they should be busted for manufacture and dissemination of child pornography, because you know if that child did the same thing, those are the charges they would face.
Can I form a LLC and commit crimes? (Score:2)
When will people (as in the majority of people) start caring that there is a 2 class system of law in America, the haves and the have nots. Corporations and ric
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It's not that simple. Here you have a scenario where a group of people made the decision to put this softawre on their rentals for legitimate reasons - to cut down on theft by being able to remotely disable or track these PC's.
Then you have a second group of people figure out that they can use this software for nefarious purposes. It seems to me that if anyone should go to jail, it should be any individual who they can prove actually used this software in an illegal manner. The software itself isn't illegal
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Throw an exec in jail because of this? Absolutely not
I guess I disagree. As a CEO you are responsible for the actions of your company. You sanctioned a plan to use software to recover your property and did not put adequate safeguards or training in place to prevent abuse of that software. As CEO you are responsible.
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I hear people say the exact same thing all the time and it scares me that people believe this. Do you really want to live in a society where you can be thrown in jail because someone, that you have limited control over, does something illegal without your knowledge?
Yes, as a CEO you have a responsibility to know what your company is doing, but anyone who has ever worked for a large company knows the CEO has very little visibility into what most of a company's individual parts are doing, other than what his/her direct reports tell them.
Maybe it wasn't the CEO, but at some level someone would have known what's going on. If not someone in a supervisor/management role, then some employee who was allegedly using company property to commit a crime. It wasn't Aaron's, Inc. that spied on people, it was a person who happened to be an employee of the company.
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Is the settlement a tax (Score:2)
Is the settlement a tax or do the individuals
and organizations wronged get compensated.
In the end some legal firm will make a killing.... Hmmm killing is illegal.
Misquoted (Score:2)
From TFA:
That's a LONG way from "Aaron's has owned up to the practice" which the summary claims or the "Aaron's admits role in spying on customers" of the headline.
This was a settlement, which meant they chose to pay $X rather than risk $(X+Y) at a trial.