NSA Intercepted French Telephone Calls "On a Massive Scale" 330
rtoz writes "The US National Security Agency (NSA) has been intercepting French telephone calls 'on a massive scale,' according to a report published in Le Monde. According to Le Monde, the NSA recorded millions of telephone calls placed by French citizens over a 30-day period last year, including some placed by people with no connections to terrorist organizations. France called in the U.S. ambassador to protest the alleged large-scale spying on French citizens by NSA."
Re:Muslims (Score:1, Insightful)
America is 75% christian, and given how feral and out-of-countrol some of the groups are, I'd say they're fair game.
Re:Realities (Score:5, Insightful)
which is not a valid argument for any NSA actions against a friendly country.
Re:Muslims (Score:5, Insightful)
Ah, spoken like a true American who feels entitled to be a douchebag.
When the rest of the world decides they're tired of your shit, you can likely expect to see a backlash against the US.
I can see governments basically saying "we're not buying your stuff, we're not hosting your bases, we're sure as hell not working with you and we don't give a fuck".
America likes to think their interests trump everyone else's. But I see a time coming where other governments start saying "fuck you".
Re:Muslims (Score:5, Insightful)
Saying your $FOO doesn't mean you're really a $FOO as described by $FOO.SACRED_WRITINGS.
Re:Realities (Score:2, Insightful)
But Mom! All the kids are doing lines and beating up old ladies!
...including some placed by people... (Score:5, Insightful)
with no terrorist connections?
SOME?
When you intercept millions of phone calls, I'd rather expect that the majority of them are not placed by terrorists, else terrorists have the phone habits of the average western teenager.
Re:Muslims (Score:3, Insightful)
With "allies" like your country no one needs enemies.
Re:Muslims (Score:5, Insightful)
Let's get real. The worst christians is Westboro Baptist Church and what do they do? Protest funerals and tell everyone how gay lovers will burn in hell. Let's try an experiment: Paint Jesus in Feces in a Christian country and see what the worst thing that will happen to you as a result? Next, pain Mohammed in feces and see what will happen to you in a Muslim country. Or even a European one (death threats anyone)?
Oh wait, you were trying to make a lame attempt at equating the two.
Re:Realities (Score:5, Insightful)
The French are not complaining about "foreign intelligence" they first and foremost defending their citizens rights. NSA tapped the whole frigging country including underwater sea cables. They didn't spy on specific strategic interests but every damn citizens of france and didn't even bother to work through the french security establishment that already cooperates fully with NSA. NSA managed to piss of the french by fucking them over multiple times at once.
Re:Muslims (Score:4, Insightful)
Westboro Baptist is worse than Christian terrorist Timothy McVeigh? Or the people who bomb abortion clinics and shoot doctors? And if you want I can continue listing other domestic terrorism by Christians.
And don't even try the "they aren't true Christians" nonsense.
If French intelligence had tapped US phones ... (Score:4, Insightful)
I suspect many Americans would be demanding that Versailles get nuked or we name french fries to freedom fries.
Re:Another strike against dragnetting (Score:5, Insightful)
Given how patriotic one of them has been, I'll give three cheers for 20ish high school dropouts.
Re:Muslims (Score:5, Insightful)
Are you telling me that WBC is worse than those "christians" bombing clinics, killing doctors, spread hate and starts war like bush just because "god told me"?
Have you even seen some of those christians? Muslims are no worse than christians, just watch africa, and see what the christian militias such as sudanese christian militias roaming around and raping , LRA (congo, heard of kony?) and other places, or do you really think that every fucking militia in africa is muslim or animist? There is one major religion in Africa and it's christianity, look at south africa, not only were they christian but they also used bible verses to support their apartheid.
It's all just a show (Score:5, Insightful)
which is not a valid argument for any NSA actions against a friendly country.
There is no such thing as a friendly foreign country as far as intelligence services are concerned. While I (and probably you) do not and should not approve of the NSA's actions, we also should not be even a tiny bit surprised by them and you can be quite sure France is not surprised despite what their government might claim. Allies can become enemies and even countries on good terms can harbor dangerous individuals - sometimes unknowingly. The US and Canada have the longest undefended border in the world but I guarantee you that they do spy on each other and that each has developed invasion/defense plans against the other just in case. Intelligence services like the CIA and NSA look for information wherever it can be found. If that happens to be a "friendly" nation or even their own citizens then so be it. This is why it is SO important to have meaningful oversight by civilian authorities. Something which we are sorely lacking at the present time.
Countries that complain about NSA spying are really just putting on a show for their voting public. They have their own intelligence services and you can be 100% certain they are spying on the US and you can also be 100% sure that they knew or at least suspected the NSA spying already. Frankly the ONLY thing that would surprise me is if they were not trying to replicate to some degree what the US is doing.
Re:Realities (Score:2, Insightful)
The reality is, they'd do the same if they had the capabilities to do so.
That line of thought can justify just about any imaginable act of aggression. We can summary execute the citizens of any other country - since we have the capability, we can nuke anyone we feel like - they'd do it first if they could, etc. Complete breakdown of international law and agreements and the right of might.
Well, guess what US, the world is changing fast and it's just a matter of decades until the mighty will be in Asia. You won't like living in the world you've helped create.
Asking for their statue back? (Score:4, Insightful)
Not so much as retribution, simply because it doesn't apply, any more.
Re:Dear Frogland (Score:4, Insightful)
Boo freekin hoo. This is what the NSA is supposed to do.
Um, no. They are supposed to focus on the activities of groups who are directly threatening American interests.
They are not supposed to waste billions of dollars worth of resources building haystacks through which to search for needles.
Face it, if the US governments interest was truly limited to fighting actual terrorism, the whole dragnet approach would be considered nothing but an expensive waste of time.
Re:...including some placed by people... (Score:4, Insightful)
You only have to adjust your definition of 'terrorist comnnections'.
For the NSA, an Nth degree connection is most likely enough.
As in: your number has in the past called some number, that was also called by a number which had been in contact with a number which is suspected to have once been used by someone who's name is on one of their lists.
This kind of 'meta-information' is exactly what they are fishing for after all.
I am more interested in how they got 'some' with no terrorist connections. Maybe only brand new phone numbers on their first use?
Re:Muslims (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Muslims (Score:5, Insightful)
Westboro Baptist is worse than Christian terrorist Timothy McVeigh?
Timothy McVeigh was raised as a Roman Catholic, but later claimed to be agnostic [wikipedia.org]. There is no evidence that there was any religious motivation for his actions.
And don't even try the "they aren't true Christians" nonsense.
You are equating far less than 1% of Christians with 80% or more of Muslims. 90% of Pakistani Muslims think people should be executed for blasphemy. 40% of Pakistani Muslims feel that the 10% who are willing to tolerate blasphemy should also be executed. This is not theoretical. Salmaan Taseer [wikipedia.org], a Pakistani politician was murdered, not for blasphemy, but merely for advocating the abolition of the death penalty for blasphemy. There was widespread approval of his murder. How many Christians support abortion clinic bombers?
Re:Scarrrring !!!! (Score:5, Insightful)
What makes you assume that "some" is "at most half"? Any logician will tell you that "some" only technically means "at least one". The statement "some ravens are black" is absolutely true - I am stating only that that at least one raven is black, and that I am not claiming that non-black ravens don't exist. But by the same logic I can make the equally true statement that "some apples are purple" - I have seen a purple apple, therefore the statement is true.
As such the claim that "some calls are not related to terrorists" is essentially information-free. It means only that at least one call was not related - which is a given granted that surveillance at this scale can not be 100% accurately targeted. It significantly does not make any claim whatsoever that even one of those monitored calls actually was terrorist-related.
Re:Muslims (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Muslims (Score:4, Insightful)
I can continue listing other domestic terrorism by Christians.
And don't even try the "they aren't true Christians" nonsense.
A random dictionary's definition of christian: [learnersdictionary.com]a person who believes in the teachings of Jesus Christ
I would *add* that "believing" is not enough, and practicing is where the true follower is...
But Jesus gave his own litmus test, so why must you and I try to define "true" christian and waste time with the "no true scottsman fallacy [wikipedia.org]": "By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another [biblehub.com]" (John 13:35)
There is no "love" in blowing people up and doing what some of these churches are individually doing to blemish the name of who they claim to follow. Jesus knew this about the wolves entering the flock. See Acts 20:29 [biblegateway.com]. The net result? false doctrine and interpretation create a rift between people and God.
Were they surprised? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Muslims (Score:5, Insightful)
That article makes no sense what so ever. Atheists do not believe in a god, but the article claims that communists believe their leader is a god, and there for they are atheists.
Actually the more I read the article the more ridiculous it gets. They claim that atheists and communist have no moral code, which is a blatantly false logical fallacy.
When you have an article that backs up your claim that is not almost entirely over generalizations come talk to me.
Re:Muslims (Score:4, Insightful)
The math speaks for itself (Score:2, Insightful)
France has 65 million people. The number of terrorists is well under one per cent; now unless the baddies phone even more than the average teenaged girl, millions of eavesdrops is at best described as waste of brains, time and money in addition to unethical.
Monitoring millions of calls, including the admitted 'politicians' and 'high profile businessmen' means espionage and industrial espionage. Now, I expect that nation states indulge in a certain amount of espionage against their allies. It's natural. One hopes less than against their actual enemies but given France's dependance upon areas upon which America wishes to also have exports -- aviation and armaments -- I'd anticipate that this may be a can of worms that keeps on giving.
No-one holds a grudge like the French government.
Re:Muslims (Score:2, Insightful)
The crusades were two cultures fighting for control.
If that was inherently religious then the 20th century culture war was inherently about Atheism.
Population growth still puts the total for atheists at the top.
Re:Muslims (Score:3, Insightful)
Good luck, the last world leader who tried to trade oil in something other than US dollars was soon hiding in a hole in the ground while his country burned down around him...
Re:Realities (Score:4, Insightful)
. Besides, the conspiracy theorist in my head thinks a lot of this is faux outrage on the part of the French government. I'm willing to bet that similar to the UK, the NSA is sharing all the information they're getting from the French taps with the DCRI (or other French intelligence service).
Such a conspiracy theory does make a lot of sense. Consider that the main PR approach in the US is to say that the intel agencies can't (legally ;-) spy on US citizens; they're only (legally ;-) allowed to spy on foreigners. This is just what they're accused of doing in this case, and it's legal under US law.
And to the French government, it's really useful. They can act outraged in public, while listening to their copies of the recordings, and be confident that nothing can be done (legally ;-) against it because the NSA is beyond the reach of any French laws or courts.
Sounds like a win-win situation to me, at least from the viewpoint of the US and French governments. And in both countries, the "people" don't matter, because both governments can satisfy them with their own PR based on this story.
Re:If French intelligence had tapped US phones ... (Score:2, Insightful)
That's what you all like to think, but it really isn't true. Look at your political dynasties (more pronounced than what you see in most of Europe), the old and rich New England families (they're still old and rich), the third-generation US military flag officers... and at the other end of the spectrum the 8-mile "trailer trash", the drunks, the crippled and ill who never had much of a chance in life. Sure, there's the occasional exception, the genius who comes from nowhere and succeeds despite his background, but they're a handful in 300 million each generation. They're the American dream not the American reality (and they occur everywhere else too, not just America). You like to think you're the land of the free and the upwardly mobile, but it doesn't even make sense - why would you be - you're a rabidly capitalist nation. You sink or swim, and since you're so anti-state intervention that universal healthcare is a new and contentious issue the fact that any at all of those born at the bottom of the swimming pool (without armbands, to carry this non-car metaphor to its conclusion) manage to get to the top is a bit of a miracle.
Then consider France, which is considerably more socialist than anywhere in the US and tries to provide armbands to those at the bottom; why is anyone remotely surprised that upward mobility is better in France (or most other places in Europe really)?