New York Subpoenaed AirBnb For All NYC User Data 181
Daniel_Stuckey writes "The war between New York City and Airbnb is raging on, and the future of the hospitality business hangs in the balance. The city is fighting the startup for breaking local laws against operating an illegal hotel out of your home, worried that hustlers are abusing the online service to turn a profit. To that end, New York Attorney General Eric Schneiderman just slapped the company with a subpoena to hand over the user data of all New Yorkers who've listed their apartment on the site, the New York Daily News reported today. That's about 225,000 users."
Look past the article's version of the cast ... (Score:5, Insightful)
Don'tcha love it that "turning a profit" is here characterized as "abuse"? And to be clear, it's not "the city" in the abstract that has anything against things like AirBnB -- nor is it guests. It's established hotel businesses, which would prefer the current low supply of rooms and the current scheme of regulation which lets *them* profit from the current configuration.
How dare people try and turn a profit (Score:5, Insightful)
AirBnb, please tell the city to go F itself. If the city has a problem with certain property owners they can request data on those specific owners. The city shouldn't be permitted to go on a fishing expedition to prove a theory.
This is just like the NSA demanding all phone records from Verizon with the possibility that only a few may be terrorists.
Re:Probably cause (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes, he can. It is illegal in New York to rent real estate for any length of time without the proper permits and licenses. Listing a room on AirBnB is prima facie evidence that you've broken these laws and easilly rises to the level of probable cause (with an "e").
Re:Look past the article's version of the cast ... (Score:5, Insightful)
Agreed. NYC has become such an insane town, government-wise, I shudder to think about ever going back. I mean, between soda bans, elevator bans, and their constant harassment over any business that innovates and turns a profit, like Airbnb or Uber, it just feels like Bloomberg and the rest of the town council, have done nothing but create a hostile environment for everyone. I love NYC, I really do. There's nothing better than walking through NYC on a cold winter's morning, eating a potato knish, but damn, it's gotten insane up there.
Re:Look past the article's version of the cast ... (Score:3, Insightful)
Government is a protection racket. You get what you pay for.
The trouble with justice is the scales tend to lean to the side with the most gold piled on.
Re:How dare people try and turn a profit (Score:4, Insightful)
If the city has a problem with certain property owners they can request data on those specific owners.
I wonder when they seize my-diary.com if they're still going to claim third-party disclosure as a legal theory and insist that people have no expectation of privacy in their data.
The city shouldn't be permitted to go on a fishing expedition to prove a theory.
You say that like the 4th Amendment applies to Herr Bloomberg.
This is just like the NSA demanding all phone records from Verizon with the possibility that only a few may be terrorists.
NYC has its own army, its own missiles - why not its own NSA? Those guys in DC shouldn't get to do all the goosestepping!
Re:Look past the article's version of the cast ... (Score:4, Insightful)
the current scheme of regulation which lets *them* profit
You are spinning it the other way. Regulation are also costing them. I'm sure lot of hotel would be fine just not having those pesky regulation getting in the way (like you know fire protection, hygiene, using legit employees, insurances, ...)
Re:Look past the article's version of the cast ... (Score:3, Insightful)
You mean you can't run an unregulated hotel and compete with the regulated ones? Is that a shock to you? Did you know it is also illegal to sell uninspected meat you slaughter at home?
We regulate hotels and food production for lots of reasons. Sure regulatory capture happens but the alternative just might be worse. If you want to check that out just google for china and pretty much any food item.
Re:Look past the article's version of the cast ... (Score:5, Insightful)
the current scheme of regulation which lets *them* profit
You are spinning it the other way. Regulation are also costing them. I'm sure lot of hotel would be fine just not having those pesky regulation getting in the way (like you know fire protection, hygiene, using legit employees, insurances, ...)
On the contrary, as long as the regulations exist and are enforced, the hotels are perfectly happy to include the costs of satisfying the city that they are in compliance (whether by complying or otherwise) by increasing what they charge people to stay. The more regulations, the harder it is for someone to enter the market and compete with them. They (probably correctly) see AirBnb as a form of competition, and are happy to use the regulations as a club to pound on the competition with.
Re:Look past the article's version of the cast ... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Probably cause (Score:4, Insightful)
No, that is not illegal. Just like your colleague giving you a cross-country lift in his car if you split the petrol cost is not illegal.
Or going for a flight in your colleague's aeroplane and paying the landing fees.
However, as soon as it crosses the line to advertised and remunerated 'hire for reward' it becomes a regulated activity. If your colleague regularly flies people in his aeroplane and charges a fare, then he has to start obeying.
Re:Look past the article's version of the cast ... (Score:1, Insightful)
>They're not forced to charge the standard hotel-night taxes,
Which is a stupid tax and should not exist. It's fucking retarded that people put up with "occupancy" taxes and the like.
>nor meet ID checking requirements on guests,
Which is a stupid set of laws that should not exist. Very much a "papers please" idea here.
>pay commercial property tax,
I very much doubt most of these places are not already paying this. If I rent an apartment fulltime (or own a rental property) tax is being collected on it already.
>meet commercial firecode requirements, etc.
See above.
>This distorts the rental market as people who live in the city end up competing with short-term tourists for places to live. Cities want to be somewhere people live, not just somewhere people visit.
So? In that case, maybe NYC should stop being such a shithole of over-regulated failure.
Re:Look past the article's version of the cast ... (Score:3, Insightful)
I have had this exact thing happen in my neck of the woods. A neighbor rents their place out, so pretty often the street is packed with cars, and sometimes people wind up parking in my driveway. Funny how slow people act to move cars, but how fast they do when the tow truck comes to the area.
It gets old having 4-10 different people, usually whooping it up all night, trashing the area. Oftentimes, there are things missing when I come out in the morning, be it sprinklers or even trash cans. Could be worse. The other neighbor had a hose stuffed in the mail slot and turned on, causing tens of thousands of dollars of water damage.
The only reason this stopped is that a number of people around this guy had to get the local city on the neighbor's case about not paying the city bed tax... and trust me, government organizations don't care about much, but if they find someone isn't paying taxes, they come in spades.
If someone wants to operate a hotel or a bed/breakfast, fine. However, neighbors are not going to be appreciative having strange people coming/going at all hours of the night.
Re:Look past the article's version of the cast ... (Score:5, Insightful)
The problem is a question of volume. In most sane regulations, there are exemptions for people who stay below a certain threshold of behavior. The idea being that if problems do occur, low volume keeps it from being a problem of the scope that impacts vast numbers of people. It's the balance that is missing from the current equation.
Allowing for exemptions from regulations for low volume activities can be much more beneficial than requiring that everyone follow the exact set of regulations/licenses. A good example of this is the craft beer industry. The craft industry allows part-time/hobbyist level of activity which allows people to develop the experience and skills in brewing. Without this craft industry, I doubt that the micro-brewery industry would be even 1/10th the size it is today.
One size fits all regulation which covers both true industry and home-garage sized businesses really doesn't work, and that's why we see all these conflicts with services like AirBNB and Uber and the like.
Par for the course. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Look past the article's version of the cast ... (Score:5, Insightful)
It's not that simple. If you actually lived in New York, you wouldn't be so quick to say that AirBnB are the good guys here.
I live in an apartment complex that has tons of rent controlled units. Regardless of your thoughts on rent control, it is something that is the law today and there are a number of strings attached. One of these restrictions is that it has to be your primary residence. There are people here who have turned their cheap, rent controlled apartment into a fly by night hotel. It is 100% illegal and I applaud the city for cracking down.
Additionally:
-It reduces the inventory of apartments in New York and artificially inflates rent for people who actually live here.
-Operating a hotel is something that is regulated by laws and the people renting out space on AirBnB aren't going to adhere to them.
-There are safety concerns as well, especially for those living in apartment buildings without doormen