Could Technology Create Modern-Day 'Leper Colonies'? 452
theodp writes "Back in the day, leprosy patients were stigmatized and shunned, quarantined from society in Leper Colonies. Those days may be long gone, but are our mapping, GPS, and social media technologies in effect helping to create modern-day 'Leper Colonies'? The recently-shuttered GhettoTracker.com (born again as Good Part of Town) generated cries of racism by inviting users to rate neighborhoods based on 'which parts of town are safe and which ones are ghetto, or unsafe'. Calling enough already with the avoid-the-ghetto apps, The Atlantic Cities' Emily Badger writes, "this idea toes a touchy line between a utilitarian application of open data and a sly wink toward people who just want to steer clear of 'those kinds of neighborhoods.'" The USPTO has already awarded avoid-crime-ridden-neighborhoods-like-the-plague patents to tech giants Microsoft, IBM, and Google. So, when it comes to navigational apps, where's the line between utility and racism? 'As mobile devices get smarter and more ubiquitous,' writes Svati Kirsten Narula, 'it is tempting to let technology make more and more decisions for us. But doing so will require us to sacrifice one of our favorite assumptions: that these tools are inherently logical and neutral...the motivations driving the algorithms may not match the motivations of those algorithms' users.' Indeed, the Google patent for Storing and Providing Routes proposes to 'remove streets from recommended directions if uploaded route information indicates that travelers seem to avoid the street.' Even faster routes that 'traverse one or more high crime areas,' Google reasons, 'may be less appealing to most travelers'."
no ghettos pre-internet? (Score:5, Insightful)
i've lived in NYC since the early 80's and if you were white you were dumb to go to the south bronx or harlem. especially at night. if your kid passes the gifted and talented test to get into accelerated kindergarten, the crappy schools will have spots open in their G&T classes because parents don't want their kids going there
Huh? (Score:2, Insightful)
So how is this actually racism again?
In other news, companies simultaneously invent app than can predict areas of low income!
This is pure human nature. We try to isolate ourselves from anything that could negatively impact our standard of living, thereby reinforcing the things
that could cause it in the first place.
If all the neighborhoods where green people live.. (Score:4, Insightful)
have a higher crime rate and higher risk of $badthing, am I being racist against green people? I don't think so. Maybe when I'm in the good side of town, I see a green person and I greet them normally. I don't hate green people, I just am going to stay out of the part of town where most of them live because I don't want to risk $badthings happening.
Now, if I hate all green people and think they're a lower form of life because of $badthings that happen, then yes I'm being racist. But the distinction between the two cannot be legislated or governed.
Safety takes Precedence over Ethnic concerns (Score:5, Insightful)
There are rough neighborhoods and bars in white neighborhoods that I would not expect women to go near at night in good cities.
Facts are facts.
And what the hell does (Score:3, Insightful)
race have to do with crime-ridden neighborhoods?
What the fuck /. ? Your summary is more racist than the technology you're referring to. Well done.
I'm not sorry. (Score:5, Insightful)
I value my safety over the feelings of others. Label it however you want, it is better than ending up dead, brain dead, maimed for life, or having my eye sockets reconstructed with titanium plates.
PC at its best (Score:5, Insightful)
I once asked in several forums about the neighborhoods of a city I was going to move into with my family. I didn't want to fall into bohemian neighborhoods (want rest at night, not party) or ghettos just because I didn't know the place. The answers were all about racism, how beautiful and diverse those places were, how much of a lousy father I was for denying my children such enriching experiences, etc.
I resorted to look around for external signs, such as crowded balconies, abandoned cars, how people dressed, etc.
I think I have the same right to be informed when I look for somewhere to live than when shopping around for stuff that suits my needs as precisely as possible.
Real racism is pre-coloring crime (Score:5, Insightful)
How is bypassing neighborhoods with a high crime rate "racism", unless you yourself are saying high crime areas ALWAYS have people of a certain race...
There are criminals of every race. The desire to reduce the probability of crime is not a matter of race, but of common sense.
It never felt so good. (Score:5, Insightful)
So now it's wrong, and even RACIST, to mitigate the risk of my family becoming victims by avoiding areas that have exceptionally high rates of crime?
Being wrong and allegedly racist never felt so good.
Re:PC at its best (Score:5, Insightful)
The answers were all about racism, how beautiful and diverse those places were
To get a real answer from those people, ask them what area of town they live in as it will usually be quite nice compared to where they are directing you to.
I don't get it (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't get why people are upset about this. If a neighborhood is crime ridden, people avoid it; why shouldn't they? High crime has lots of other negative consequences (outmigration, plummeting real estate values, decrease in tax base, etc.).
I don't see what this has to do with racism. If crime is higher in a neighborhood composed of some racial minority, that's incidental; people don't avoid it because of its racial makeup, they avoid it because of crime, and the correlation with race has other causes.
Furthermore, racial minorities have no reason to live in ghettos these days; if they do, it's by choice or inertia.
get crime data and screw the race baiters (Score:5, Insightful)
High crime is high crime. The areas are what they are. Fuck Jesse Jackson. He's one of the reasons that areas with high black population tend to also have high crime rates.
(This statement has been approved by both my wife and me, who are caramel colored and slightly tan.)
Re:Are ghettos really that bad? (Score:4, Insightful)
In many places, ghettos are where housing is no less expensive -- it's just paid for by someone else.
Re:no ghettos pre-internet? (Score:1, Insightful)
Don't forget the part about beating some guy's head into the pavement without checking to see if that guy was in a position to defend himself.
Re:Real racism is pre-coloring crime (Score:3, Insightful)
Liberals show their racist ideology by making an automatic leap to race.
There are places in Boston where the thugs are quite Irish and white.
I think we've reached peak racist (Score:5, Insightful)
The word is just used too often, for too many things, that it is ceasing to have any meaning for me, besides "somebody doesn't like something".
This is "racist", that is "racist", the next thing is "racist", he's a "racist", she's a "racist", my car won't start because it's "racist", my program has a memory leak because it's "racist" . . . on, and on, and on . . .
It seems to me to be the hobgoblin of tiny little minds, who can't think of anything else better to say, when they've run out of all other arguments.
For me, now, it is akin to telling someone Jewish that they're cheap, someone German that they're evil because of the Nazis, someone Italian that they're in the Mafia, someone Spanish to leave those poor bulls alone, someone French that they're military cowards, etc, etc, etc . . .
Calling someone or something "racist" . . . is in fact as about as "racist" as you can get these days.
Re:Real racism is pre-coloring crime (Score:5, Insightful)
When the bypass is based on actual crime stats, it is not racist at all.
The problem is when it is based on perceived safety and that perception is based on how many people of (race you don't like) can be seen.
Re:Huh? (Score:5, Insightful)
It only racist when someone assumes there is a race factor associated with being a ghetto.
I've lived in Washington DC, and East Tennessee, Seattle - I've seen ghettos composed of every race there is.
So what does being a ghetto have to do with being racist?
Re:Real racism is pre-coloring crime (Score:4, Insightful)
Probably because the metrics are based on input from users (who are probably simply flagging any of the *them* neighborhoods) and not any rational data. You have to live a pretty sheltered life to think you're going to drive through any neighborhood and get dragged out of your car and robbed. I'm not saying it never happens, but the odds are damned low. I went to a city college in a "bad" KC neighborhood and the crime stats were really low. And, that's for kids walking around, living, and working there, not just driving through.
Maybe there are *bad* neighborhoods where this information is relevant, but my guess is the percentage of these neighborhoods is low enough to obviate an app like this. If you're staying out of dark alleyways populated by shadowy figures at 2am, you're probably safe on just about any street. If you take a look at crime maps for your city, the results are usually pretty surprising.
Re:I don't get it (Score:4, Insightful)
Martin used deadly force against someone. That has nothing to do with "being safer around black people"; that's related to "being safer around people whose heads you're not bashing into the pavement".
Re:Are ghettos really that bad? (Score:5, Insightful)
The worst thing about living anywhere near a "bad" neighborhood are the endless car break-ins that the authorities can't do jack shit to stop. The Coconut Grove area of Miami, and the adjacent neighborhoods in Coral Gables (where I used to live) are a perfect example. Thanks to both explosive gentrification and the enduring legacy of old-south segregation-era zoning laws, there are plenty of areas where you literally have expensive homes back to back with housing projects that will never go away.
In those areas, you can never have guests come over to see you unless they park elsewhere and take a cab, because YOUR BUILDING's parking garage might have 2 layers of gates & security, but for obvious logistical reasons, the guest parking sits unprotected out in the open. Let me tell you... the only thing that sucks worse than getting your own parked car broken into is having friends come to see you, and getting THEIR OWN car broken into. Or god forbid, your parents' car. If your parents' car gets broken into, you will NEVER be allowed to forget about it. My parents STILL bring it up at least two or three times at family gatherings on Thanksgiving, Christmas, and the Fourth of July, and it happened more than a DECADE ago.
Ask anybody who lives in an urban neighborhood what their #1 neurotic fear is, and they'll tell you -- "Friends coming to visit, and getting their car broken into". On the hierarchy of social shame, it pretty much tops the list. From that point forward, you no longer live in a nice, safe, gentrified urban neighborhood. As far as your friends and family are concerned, you live in the 'hood.
Re:Are ghettos really that bad? (Score:5, Insightful)
Stop leaving valuables in your car and it cuts down on break ins a lot. In bad areas I leave my car unlocked, open the glove box and spill the contents onto the car floor. It looks like it has already been robbed.
We had a terrible problem with car theft. What the police did is set up bait cars. These cars have video to gather evidence, gps, and remote controls to lock and stop the car. The bait car program in Vancouver BC reduced car theft 70% over 5 years..
Real policing can be effective.
Re:no ghettos pre-internet? (Score:5, Insightful)
I have never understood how some areas can be so high crime that a white person walking late at night is 100% sure to get in trouble and the police can't do anything about it. The police can just have a white undercover agent walk at night and have a team stand by to arrest those that make trouble, rinse repeat until problem goes away. Perhaps I just don't understand the problem because I have never lived in a country with high crime.
Re:PC at its best (Score:4, Insightful)
Generally true, but not always. Young, single, childless bohemian types sometimes do, in fact, choose to live lower rent neighborhoods and disdain those who do not do likewise. Priorities tend to change once one settles down, marries, has kids, and actually wants to own a little property.
Lesson: don't take advice about where to live from those who've less to lose than you.
Re:no ghettos pre-internet? (Score:5, Insightful)
That would be admitting that there's a problem, which seems to frequently be interpreted as racism. People need to get over the race thing and realize that there is a problem, but it's cultural rather than racial. Cultures can change, but people have to want to change them.
Re:Real racism is pre-coloring crime (Score:5, Insightful)
You have to live a pretty sheltered life to think you're going to drive through any neighborhood and get dragged out of your car and robbed.
On 4th year at the university, I got a place in a student dormitory in a bad part of the city. I lasted only ten days there, and got attacked seven times. For comparison, I've never been attacked elsewhere during my university times, and got attacked a total of three times elsewhere during my whole adult life.
I don't look out of ordinary, don't wear strange clothes, etc. I'm white and so is almost everyone around here (Poland). Now, guess what would happen if a black person walked through that neighbourhood.
It's not a matter of race, it's a case of tribalism. Race is just a convenient way to tell outsiders, if it's not a factor those oh-so-nice fellow humans will find a different reason to bash your face in.
Re:If all the neighborhoods where green people liv (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:no ghettos pre-internet? (Score:2, Insightful)
Don't forget the part about beating some guy's head into the pavement without checking to see if that guy was in a position to defend himself.
Don't forget the part about being followed at night by an aggressive stranger, who is considerably bigger than you and may be (and in this case, of course, was) armed. Also don't forget the part about how you live in a state where you have the legal right to stand your ground. But maybe you should forget that last part, because Terms And Conditions May Apply.
Re:If all the neighborhoods where green people liv (Score:5, Insightful)
Rather it is an example of "confirmation bias".
You can tell the false negatives - the people you thought were "good" turn out to be "bad".
But you have no way to verify the false positives - the people you thought were "bad" are really "good". So you do not believe there were false positives.
The result being that the number of "bad" category characteristics keeps increasing. But each one has a clear example that you can cite. Therefore, it is completely rational. And anyone who does not agree is being irrational (opposing that which is rational).
Re:no ghettos pre-internet? (Score:4, Insightful)
There's a difference between standing your ground and pounding someone's head into the ground.
Re:If all the neighborhoods where green people liv (Score:3, Insightful)
If all the neighborhoods where green people live have a higher crime rate and higher risk of $badthing, am I being racist against green people? [...] I don't hate green people
If you do nothing about it, yes. Racism is not always an irrational reprehension against green people, it's usually a very utilitarian response to risk and asymmetrical information. If green people have more thieves and crooks among them, it's rational to watch your pockets around them and avoid their services. Not because all greens are crooks, but because by buying from whites reduces your risks.
Being green is a signal you are forced to send regardless of how good your skills are and how honest you are. And once the signaling [wikipedia.org] game starts it becomes a runaway self-fulfilling prophecy:
1. Less greens are hired, they sell less goods etc.
2. The proportion of poverty stricken greens increases, well correlated with crime rates among greens
3. The incentive for whites to discriminate is stronger, reinforcing 1.
This whole cycle is at the core of racial relations. Greens are first socially marginalized, and only then hated for being lazy, violent, uneducated etc. And by avoiding green areas you are doing your share of point 3. There shouldn't be any "neighborhood where green people live, with higher crime rate". You as a citizen, a voter and a man should do something about it, it's not right. If you get on with your life and simply adjust your GPS route to avoid the higher risk, then yes, you are making a racist choice.
Re:no ghettos pre-internet? (Score:5, Insightful)
Only if you start attacking the residents of that community when they ask you what you're doing there. If you're polite and deferential, you'll be fine, whether you're black or white.
Re: no ghettos pre-internet? (Score:2, Insightful)
No. That was simple self-defense.
It's worth noting that if the police had arrive a couple of minutes earlier, before Zimmerman shot, they would have certainly arrested Martin for, at the very least, assault, and quite possibly attempted murder, and they would have tried him, and most likely convicted him, and he would now be serving a long prison sentence.
The only one who broke any laws that night was Martin.
Re:no ghettos pre-internet? (Score:5, Insightful)
there is a problem, but it's cultural rather than racial.
Bingo. Nothing about being black means you must commit crime. The thug culture is the problem. And to get back to the original topic, a list of places to avoid would be just as useful to a black person who didn't want to be raped, robbed, and murdered as it would to a white.