EFF Wins Release of Secret Court Opinion: NSA Surveillance Unconstitutional 524
mspohr writes "For over a year, EFF has been fighting the government in federal court to force the public release of an 86-page opinion of the secret Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court (FISC). Issued in October 2011, the secret court's opinion found that surveillance conducted by the NSA under the FISA Amendments Act was unconstitutional and violated 'the spirit of' federal law."
Accountability (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Impeach Obummer! (Score:5, Insightful)
How about we impeach brain dead idiots like yourself? I'm not a fan of Obama at this point, but this isn't all on him. Your boyscout Bush, and both major political parties have deep rooted ties to all of this shit.
Tipping point (Score:4, Insightful)
This is legitimate prejudice for starting a revolution.
Your government and leading class has to learn how democracy gets done.
Everyone shall have this very definition of democracy hardwired in their brains for the centuries to come.
The evil doers will have to admit it painfully for best results, fear has to change sides.
The world is watching you USA.
Re:Impeach Obummer! (Score:5, Insightful)
People just like blaming Obama for apparatus that was setup under Bush's watch. That been he Repub's MO since they lost the election before the last.
Before you all get whipped in to a frenzy: Consider that Obama (Or rather his entire administration) gets his information from the NSA. That's their job. That's how the system works. Do you think that the NSA is going to supply him information that makes them look like out of control corrupt goons? Are they going to say "Hi Mr.President. We wiped our ass with the Constitution 548 times last month" No. They're going to portray their operation in a positive light, and insist that they are legally doing everything necessary to keep America safe.
Recent information says, though, that the situation is bad. Their secret courts make them immune to oversight. We all know this is bad, but realistically it's very political problem that's going to to take a long time to fix. You all should know how long it will take to dig out an entrenched government institution, let alone one with near unlimited power and a secret budget.
Re:Impeach Obummer! (Score:5, Insightful)
People just like blaming Obama for apparatus that was setup under Bush's watch.
Well, if Obama ever wants to change that impression, he can start by firing people involved in unconstitutional activities.
Re:Impeach Obummer! (Score:5, Insightful)
Let me try to predict your reply:
Wah Wah Bush is a war criminal don't bully Obama you stupid republican piece of shit!
Don't give me that fucking garbage, shove your partisan bullshit right up your ass.
Re:Constitution-worship (Score:3, Insightful)
Our sometimes flagrant disregard of the Constitution has not produced chaos or totalitarianism; on the contrary, it has helped us to grow and prosper.
We're slipping towards a police state and he says this nonsense? Yes, just ignore the damn thing; we've done so in the past, so it's okay!
Re:Tipping point (Score:5, Insightful)
Revolution isn't the answer. The answer is to stop voting for candidates that are promising to destroy the government and fail to even pretend to have plans to improve the situation. Ultimately, unless Grover Norquist is tried for sedition, along with the various GOP candidates that signed his fealty pledge, there's going to be no particular legitimacy for a large number of legislators.
Re:Impeach Obummer! (Score:4, Insightful)
It gets better when you realize when Obama said he wanted to create more oversight and then put the entire oversight under the NSA's leadership.
What most people don't realize is Obama is as much a republican as Reagan, Nixon, and both Bushes. His policies are in direct line with theirs.
What we need are term limits for congress critters so they can't become as corrupted, and for Congress to start revoking executive powers back out of the executive branch.
We didn't need the cabinets before World War II Why don't we eliminate them?
The last scary thought I shall leave with. What if J Edgar Hoover had the NSA's ability to spy on people?
Re:Constitution-worship (Score:3, Insightful)
What a load of BS. A NYT writer makes an opinion that the government should IGNORE the parts of the Constitution he doesn't like and uphold the parts he does like. You either agree with him, or his new rules allow him to take all your possessions and toss you in jail forever without trial.
This is your typical liberal thinking. They KNOW their ideas are failures and will never pass the general public, especially as amendments to the Constitution. So instead of that tedious debating ideas and winning support and votes for their ideas, what we need to do instead is ignore the people and popular opinion and FORCE their views on the rest of the country under threat of force.
Here's the real reason for this opinion piece, even though he didn't mention it. The 2nd amendment is written too clearly and every SCOTUS hearing of it has upheld it and he knows he can NEVER amendmend the Constitution to get rid of it the legal way, so its time to just ignore the laws and toss it out. You will notice he conviently mentioned the first amendment needs to be kept around out of "respect" but not so much the rest of them.
Re:Constitution-worship (Score:3, Insightful)
Be grateful.
Conservative constitution-worship helps protect you from them.
On the other hand liberals are open-minded enough that they can interpret the constitution as a living document so they're free to pretty much do as they please, like assassinating American citizens without due process, using the NSA to spy on Americans, targeting political opponents with the IRS, etc.
Because hey, the constitution is just a piece of paper and you're not a slave to constitution-worship, so who gives a f*ck about rights?
Re:Impeach Obummer! (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm not a fan of Obama at this point, but this isn't all on him.
Yes it is all on him.
He could have ended this with one stroke of the pen. He's had 6 years. How many time does he have to get re-elected before he owns this mess?
How many times do you intend to repeat that soggy old mantra of it being Bush's fault?
He could have gone public, shut it all down with an executive order. Instead He lied. Then he lied about lying. Now he welcomes a "dialog" where in he will tell us polity and sympathetically to shut up, sit down, and watch tv like good little kids.
And useful idiots like you will lap it all up again just like you did the first time and the second time.
You lapped it up when he closed the embassies because of huge terror plots.
You just keep buying the same sack of horseshit over and over again.
You tell me: What will it take!???
When do you stop defending him?
Re:Impeach Obummer! (Score:5, Insightful)
People just like blaming Obama for apparatus that was setup under Bush's watch.
Oh, come on, this is not his first month in the Oval Office. People blame Obama for expanding on the apparatus established under Bush (and he did so quite actively).
When does he become responsible, anyway? After he leaves the office at the end of 8 years? It must be DURING his tenure as a president, and that's more than half over.
Do you think that the NSA is going to supply him information that makes them look like out of control corrupt goons?
No, but it'd be nice if he responded once the information comes to light. Ignoring incriminating revelations is same as supporting them.
Re:Impeach Obummer! (Score:5, Insightful)
Also, while I won't share who I voted for (immaterial, and really, what's the point of a secret ballot if you tell everyone who you voted for?), I will say that when Obama was elected, I went along with it. People said "oh, he's going to bring Chicago rough-and-tumble bullying politics into the Presidency!" and I was thinking "Good!" Maybe Chicago style politics would have gotten us out of Iraq and Afghanistan sooner. Maybe Chicago-style politics would have closed Guantanomo, or repealed the Patriot Act. I'd love to see some of these career politicians dragged out by their proverbial short-and-curlies in front of everyone and dressed down for their selling-out-of-america. But no, we got just another Washington style politician, bought and paid for by moneyed interests.
Re:Tipping point (Score:4, Insightful)
We have 2 political parties in this country.
They dictate the issues.
The write the rules governing how you create a party, how you get on a ballet.
Nearly everyone in the media belongs to one of the two parties. The parties control the message.
You basically can not vote for anyone if they do not belong to one of the parties. You can write in a name, but the fact of the matter is it's nearly impossible to co-ordinate a write-in voting effort.
Our government is controlled by a single party. They appear to be 2 parties, but in reality they both act the same. They have slightly differing goals but they trade and make deals to get what they want in every bill. They are effectively the same party with 2 differing internal factions that argue over details. The Patriot act DID get passed after all... So did Obamacare... It's all a show.
Prison for praise is not worth thinking
Sin is still in and our ballots are shrinking
So unleash the dogs - the only solution
Forgive and forget, fuck no
I'm talking about a revolution
Prison for praise - the obvious answer
Once had power mad - living disaster
Don't fuck with me 'cos I'm on a freedom train
That bears no name - this time
I'm voting with a bullet
Bonus points if you know who wrote that without using Google ;-)
Re:Impeach Obummer! (Score:5, Insightful)
People just like blaming Obama for apparatus that was setup under Bush's watch.
How about blaming him for criticizing that apparatus during his campaign, promising to dismantle it, and then embracing and expanding it all after he was elected.
Getting really tired of the It's Okay When My Side Does It crowd.
Re:Farce royale (Score:5, Insightful)
You at the other side of the pond have generated a farce beyond fantasy
An amazing statement considering recent events in the UK with respect to the Snowden story. Hubris.
Re:Constitution-worship (Score:5, Insightful)
Whenever these stories come out, I am uncomfortably reminded of conservative constitution-worship. "As the nation teeters at the edge of fiscal chaos, observers are reaching the conclusion that the American system of government is broken. But almost no one blames the culprit: our insistence on obedience to the Constitution, with all its archaic, idiosyncratic and downright evil provisions." [nytimes.com]
Sure... throw the constitution over board to gain "fiscal stability". Somehow reminds me Hitler's ascension to power.
Re:From TFA (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Impeach Obummer! (Score:0, Insightful)
So something that he only oversaw for 1 year vs the other president who extended it for 5 more years.
Re:Impeach Obummer! (Score:5, Insightful)
People just like blaming Obama for apparatus that was setup under Bush's watch. That been he Repub's MO since they lost the election before the last.
If you are President, especially for 5 years heading towards 8, and it is still going on during your administration under leadership you appointed, you own it. That includes even programs that started before you came into power.
If you disagree with that, maybe you can tell us when it will be appropriate to hold President Obama responsible for events occurring during his administration? Will that be the day after he leaves office?
Re:Impeach Obummer! (Score:4, Insightful)
We're never getting off this planet, are we?
Fuck.
EFF (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Impeach Obummer! (Score:5, Insightful)
You've just arrived on the internet, and you've never heard of Predator, or Echelon, of any other data gathering programs and softwares.
Well, since you are so new here, your ignorance can be forgiven. Prism is just the latest version of data mining programs. And, Prism isn't the only program. A number of articles have suggested that Prism is just one of the many facets of NSA spying.
It is GOVERNMENT that is at fault here. It isn't one administration - it is GOVERNMENT. Our government is so damned big, even congress has little idea what any part of government is doing. Only after Snowden forced Prism into the spotlight did members of congress begin to demand answers. Normally, the intelligence network is "monitored" by a select committee of congress critters, who generally don't report much of anything back to the main body of congress.
Comment removed (Score:4, Insightful)
factually incorrect. I very publicly called out re (Score:5, Insightful)
You are mistaken. For example, I very publicly called out my Congressman for failing to support the amendment to end this shit. That's a Republican congressman whom I voted for. Then, I made sure that for two weeks his Facebook page featured me blasting his excuses for not doing something about this.
On this very page, I've called Bush, who I voted for based on his success as governor, "one of the worst presidents in history".
There are two ways you can support your "team". You can either support them in becoming the best, doing the best, or you can mindlessly pretend whatever they do is best. If my football team has a crappy quarterback, I say it. I say "let's figure out what we need in a replacement QB". Pretending that your QB is awesome as he fumbles every snap doesn't get you anywhere. All it does is make youlook stupid and your team continue to lose. The Democrats made a bad draft pick. The sooner they admit that the sooner they can improve.
Re:I should have finished reading before posting (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:From TFA (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Impeach Obummer! (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Impeach Obummer! (Score:5, Insightful)
People just like blaming Obama for apparatus that was setup under Bush's watch.
No. People like blaming Obama for not doing anything about the apparatus that was setup under Bush's watch, and for not doing what he said he would do. We blamed Bush when he was in office, now he isn't. So we blame the person who is in charge, who isn't doing anything to fix the situation.
Re:I should have finished reading before posting (Score:5, Insightful)
Seriously?! Obama could have abolished this nonsense on Day One if he'd wanted to; the fact that he didn't means he's just as evil!
Re:Accountability (Score:4, Insightful)
No, IIRC Gandhi said you reason with a man; you don't reason with a tiger. You shoot a tiger. Thus he would not have used civil disobedience with the Germans. Our Heros (*) are far more tiger than man.
But here, the tiger has all the firepower. So that one's out too.
I'm still open to suggestions, but my idea is to get in aboat and wait it out..
Re:Impeach Obummer! (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:From TFA (Score:3, Insightful)
Where in the constitution does it grant them the ability to use Macintosh computers? Nowhere? So does that mean that any government use of Macintosh computers is unconstitutional?
I trust that this devil's advocate position illustrates the folly of the notion you've mentioned above.
Re:Accountability (Score:5, Insightful)
But correcting government wrongdoing always has to climb the ladder.
Clapper, etc need to be brought up on charges first. Then let's see what shakes loose.
I'm not sure impeachment is even anything like a solution. The next guy and the guy after that are absolutely going to use the secret laws in the same ways.
We have to start by electing a Congress of people who reject the police state. Right now, there's only a handful, and they're not the ones you think. Someone who thinks hospitals and doctors need to turn over their records of women having abortion are not exactly the model of "small government".
There are some real civil libertarians in Congress, but they're mostly not the ones who are claiming they believe in "small, limited government". It's not civil liberties when all of the snooping is being turned over to private enterprise, you know.
Re:Impeach Obummer! (Score:5, Insightful)
But at least back then there was a threat of prosecution.
Re:Impeach Obummer! (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm afraid that I'm old enough to remember campaigning against Nixon, and wearing "I voted for McGovern" buttons as Nixon's behavior became more criminal and more power mad.. His resignation wasn't due to "sense of shame". His resignation prevented impeachment, and the immediate pardon after his resignation prevented criminal prosecution after his resignation.
The situation is not very comparable: enough personally criminal behavior, rather than unconstitutional policy, was exposed to leave Richard Nixon open to personal prosecution as soon as he lost his sovereign immunity. The NSA's behavior has been much more difficult to expose as individuals doing criminal acts.
Re:Impeach Obummer! (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm afraid that the President does have this kind of power. The behavior of the NSA is a matter of policy. The President and his officers present the budgets for the NSA to Congress, and set the policies that are not a matter of already existing law. NSA practices like the monitoring of domestic, civilian communications with the excuse that it had a "50% or better chance of involving foreign communications" is a matter of policy, not law. And the policy for Guantanamo Bay prisoners to lack legal representation, for the names to be kept secret, and to review the cases of only those whom allied governments discover and raise concerns about, are all in the President's hands.
I'm afraid that Mr. Obama tries to seek consensus, full agreement from all concerned, in cases like these where a clear moral stance would show leadership and earn far more respect for his most important goals, such as health care plans or economic recovery work. It's left America without the much promised "change"" of his first campaign.
Re:Impeach Obummer! (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent post speaks the truth.
Fact: Obama has come out swinging in support of the surveillance programs. He should be held responsible for it.
Also fact: Politicians from both parties, GOP and Dems created and voted in the laws that allowed the surveillance programs. They supported the surveillance programs and continue to support it. They should also be held accountable for it.
My point is that Obama is just a figurehead. Don't focus all your anger on him and lose sight of the fact that there is a whole bunch of politicians of all stripes behind him cheering him on. Im sure they would love it if you scapegoat Obama and let them walk free.
Re:Impeach Obummer! (Score:5, Insightful)
Exactly. People that blame D or R are just continuing the fiction that there is any significant difference.
Re:Impeach Obummer! (Score:5, Insightful)
That's not the "result of ageneral political consensus among the President and Congress that allowing terrorists to kill large numbers of American citizens is a bad thing."
It was a huge power grab and has done nothing to improve American safety.
It *has* significantly eroded our constitution.
And yes, some of us question the gross increase in executive power and public surveillance in return for an undemonstrated and unrealized threat.
If any significant plot had been prevented we could have a public debate on the merits, but no such plot has ever been brought to the table. We're supposed to just trust them, and with the current administration and prior adminstrations' track records!
They can go fuck themselves.
Re:Impeach Obummer! (Score:4, Insightful)
I think that at the end of the day the point is that it's becoming increasingly obvious that both Bush and Obama (not to mention many others) have been answering to somebody else rather than acting entirely on their own initiative. And once you realize that the guy in office is a puppet, trying to place the blame on him just plays into the hands of the puppet masters. They'll be glad to give you a completely fresh new puppet the next time around, and I'm sure HE won't keep doing the exact same thing under a new guise. Hope and Change anybody?
Should we impeach him over his support for this? Sure, why not, always good to have a good public roasting from time to time, keeps the yokels entertained. While we're at it lets throw most of Congress on the fire too, they're the ones who actually passed the bills that created and funded this $#@!. And hey, how about all them there millionaires too - not quite sure what they have to do with anything, but it's just unseemly how they flash their money around. Whooh, that was a mighty pretty fire. Very cathartic. Now, did anybody happen to spot the puppeteers fleeing the fire? Nobody? Ah well, they probably didn't make it and I'm pretty wore out now anyway. What say we have a few beers and decide who should run things now? I hear Puppet R is a hell of a guy, and you can barely see the strings...
Not that we shouldn't go after the politicians betraying us, but if we don't have at least some plan to catch the puppet masters we most certainly won't. And if you do have a plan, for Deity's sake don't talk about it online or anywhere near a phone.
Re:EFF (Score:4, Insightful)
Donate to the EFF right now. Do not wait. Donate this very minute.
How long before we have a story about how the EFF is shutting down since it can no longer maintain its integrity due to the NSA demanding all documents and correspondences? I'll give it a month. A year ago I'd call it paranoid fantasy. Right now, I'll put money on it.
Re:Accountability (Score:5, Insightful)
and both are 100% ineffective.
the only way to get influence is to BUY it. this is how corp america has bought our congress.
we can't seem to follow that model, and so we lose. big business learned the secret and so they have all the influence they want.
writing letters used to work - before business became the new first-class citizen. the rest of us got demoted down at least one level.
sure wish people would stop thinking that the system works. it does not work. and asking the system to fix itself is a bad joke.
Re:Impeach Obummer! (Score:3, Insightful)
If any significant plot had been prevented we could have a public debate on the merits
Whether any plot has been prevented is completely irrelevant. We don't trade our freedoms for security even if that security is real.
Re:Farce royale (Score:5, Insightful)
For people in main land europe the UK is also on the other side of the pond.
What is the public's recourse? (Score:5, Insightful)
I just want to make sure I have the right series of events here, from the public perspective:
1. A previous elected official and congress enact some overreaching laws in response to a terrorist attack
2. A politician who makes a bunch of promises against these programs is elected the new President
3. The now-elected politician strengthens and enforces those programs rather than shuttering them
4. There is some kind of a court decision but it is sealed/secret. FOIA requests are made by EFF.
5. A whistle blower comes forward and exposes the illegal activities to the public because his bosses and the elected official have continued said operations. Since his bosses are the Executive Branch and responsible for enforcing the law, he has nobody to report his findings to other than the public.
6. The elected official and members of congress declare said whistle blower a traitor for exposing their methods.
7. It is revealed that the court had previously, as in years ago, ruled that the activities reported on by the whistle blower are illegal. Meaning the whistle blower is not just reporting the activities, but he is reporting that the President of the United States, the heads of major departments, the Attorney General, and a bunch of other People In Power have been knowingly breaking the law to empower the government. Not only, in fact, are they doing something that the court already ruled is illegal, but they sealed the court's decision so that the public would not know about it.
Did I miss anything?
Oh yeah,
8. Snowden is probably still fucked.
Re:I should have finished reading before posting (Score:5, Insightful)
Whatever -- Day Two, then. The guy's been in office for five years now -- in fact, the "last administration" that you blamed in your previous post was also the Obama administration (term 1) -- so he's had plenty of fucking time to get rid of the bullshit.
The fact that he hasn't means he is complicit -- no, scratch that, he endorses it -- and has zero excuses.
The goddamn worthless lying piece of shit even campaigned on closing Gitmo (which is why I voted for him in 2008)... we see how that worked out (which is why I voted against him in 2012)!
Re:Impeach Obummer! (Score:3, Insightful)
However, even talking about it in such a way really just distracts from the real problems. The real problem is the complete inabiltity for your damn populace to affect any change in your country's policies. The real problem is the fact that you have a defacto single-party "democracy". We shouldn't even care who get's voted in. Every.single.person should be worried about enacting change in the structure of government that allows such incongruencies to even occur in a supposedly democratic system. Instead, you're all so worried about assigning, explaining and arguing over partisan/presidentail blame that you're NOT looking at the problems at all. You're just not. If you did, you'd all be out on the streets protesting to have a country-wide vote/referendum on every single one of these important issues.
There is no need for a revolution as one of the earlier posters was talking about. Change can happen, but not if you work within the already rigged system. Get out and protest for a referendum. All of you. That includes you and the guy you responded to.
Re:I should have finished reading before posting (Score:4, Insightful)
Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos.
Re:I should have finished reading before posting (Score:5, Insightful)
Exempt it expired during his term and he signed the renewal into law. What now are you going to claim the senate could have found the votes to over ride a veto if he had said before hand that was his intent, you really think his own party would do that to him?
You are just an Obama apologist pure and simple, 6 years in he owns this, no matter wether it started under Bush or FDR for that matter
Re:I should have finished reading before posting (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Impeach Obummer! (Score:4, Insightful)
The U.S. military will never be deployed against the U.S. citizenry. That would cause serious civil unrest problems immediately, and they know it. Also, they don't need to. They've been selling surplus military equipment to the police for years, who are licensed to operate on U.S. soil. The police are already here, and they're not grumbling about it - if anything, they tend to see ordinary citizens like the enemy already.