Snowden: NSA Spying On EU Diplomats and Administrators 417
An anonymous reader writes "According to a report dated 2010 recently provided by [former NSA contractor Edward] Snowden to the German news magazine 'Der Spiegel', the NSA has systematically been spying on institutions of the EU in Washington DC, New York, and Brussels. Methods of spying include bugging, phone taps, and network intrusions and surveillance according to the documents."
All part of a grand tradition.
For the sake of saving time, (Score:5, Insightful)
The US is nobody's friend (Score:5, Insightful)
Our government is a bit like a sociopath. We are nobody's friend. Everyone is merely a potential enemy. We spy on everyone. No exceptions. I'm sure we even spy on the UK and Canada as utterly pointless as that may be. If we ever ended up at war with either Canada or the UK then we'd almost certainly be better off losing anyway.
Of course, from Washington's POV the problem is not so much that we spy even on our friends, but that someone blabbed about it. They won't think about changing their behavior toward our allies. About acting honorably at least toward our allies. Rather they will think more about how badly they can punish the leaker. I can only imagine how badly they are itching to get Snowden's ass to gitmo and torture him to death in very creative ways.
Re:somebody's got some splaining to do... (Score:5, Insightful)
Actually, countries likely have a mutual spying agreement. USA spies on $COUNTRY, $COUNTRY spies on USA, and they share information. Both never technically spy on their own citizens and therefore obey their own constraints, yet they effectively have full unchecked information invasion on their own people.
Re:No subject (Score:3, Insightful)
Guantanamo is likely against international law.
Drone attacks based on 'behaviour patterns' is probably that too.
Let alone the whole NSA spying program, which at least violates human rights.
Why would wiretapping diplomats be off-limits for rouge states?
Of course they are... (Score:5, Insightful)
it is after all their job to spy.
Is anyone honestly going to claim no one else is spying? Who thinks the EU doesn't spy on the US? etc?
Everyone is spying on everyone else. Its part of diplomacy.
Why? countries lie. Countries manipulate. And no one really trusts anyone in the end. So you spy.
Every nation spies on every other nation to the extent that they care and have the resources. This is why the US catches Russian sleeper agents occasionally... or busts Chinese spies. This happens all the time. And the general convention on the matter is that if we don't punish their spying we won't punish their spying.
How many spies has the US executed recently? None. And we could by international law. Same thing with the spies they catch. They aren't killed. They're exchanged.
Re:The US is nobody's friend (Score:5, Insightful)
"Be careful how you choose your enemy, for you will come to resemble him."
Re:For the sake of saving time, (Score:5, Insightful)
If we don't spy on everyone, the terrorists will get us (and maybe the communists, but they're not the big bad bogeymen they once were)! Grope everyone at airports! Have secret courts rubberstamp warrants that allow for the collection of random people's information even though there's no probable cause! Spy on allies! Spy on every single person in existence!
Somehow it seems as if our own politicians hate our freedom more than the terrorists supposedly do...
Re: The US is nobody's friend (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:For the sake of saving time, (Score:4, Insightful)
They have to spy on everybody, because anybody could be, or become, a terrorist, either willingly or unwillingly.
The only people that can be trusted are obviously only a small group of people close to the President, and a handful of Congressmen and Senators.
More "revelations" from Snowden (Score:5, Insightful)
Yeah, I know this is too true information even for slashdot, I'm guessing this will be modded down.
Sunday morning here (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:The US is nobody's friend (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Of course they are... (Score:5, Insightful)
Who thinks the EU doesn't spy on the US?
Just for measure, as you may not understand the EU institutions.The European Council is composed of the governments of the states of the EU. It usually works by organizing reunions of ministers for each political domain, as well as reunions of the heads of government, and that's currently the place where important decisions are taken. Given that there are 27 members, it is a piece of cake for the US to know what is said in there, and some countries' governments will gladly tell the US if they ask. Except that they may distort the message to fit their interests. Thus, it is interesting for US spys to get the information directly.
But on the political level, this spying is tantamount to bugging the White House's main conference room.
Re:That doesn't make it right (Score:5, Insightful)
It's not about morals, it's that at some point, the threat from having a dark, hidden organization inside the government, operating away from the light of disclosure, becomes greater than the threat of foreign countries invading. It's been a long time since Britain attacked us.
Re:For the sake of saving time, (Score:5, Insightful)
Offices of Congress. If it ever came out that the Congress was being monitored in its offices, the fecal matter would hit the rotating device at supersonic speeds.
Re:For the sake of saving time, (Score:5, Insightful)
Yeah! Why doesn't he appreciate a government that's illegally spying on OUR ALLIES for no clear reason other than to piss them, and everyone else, off?
Re:The US is nobody's friend (Score:4, Insightful)
Or at least don't visit the US. Don't try to make friends with a sociopath or a government that is indistinguishable from one.
Are we like one of those guys who enters a school with a machine guns and grenades? The students might smile at you, but really they just want to get away from you. I used to think we were the good guys. [youtube.com]
Re:The US is nobody's friend (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: Progressive Disclosure (Score:5, Insightful)
Which reminds me that one of the Senators calling for Snowdon's blood used to finance the IRA. Puts it in perspective doesn't it? A leak versus giving money to terrorists, who bought their explosives from Libya. Explosives manufactured in Eastern Europe in the depths of the cold war. I know which one looks a lot more like treason to me.
Re:Can't fracture again (Score:3, Insightful)
"The EU never was a Union. It has always been a trade treaty and some fools tried to make more out of it."
The intent of the EU / EC / ECSC was always to form a political union. Granted it is not there yet, but the founding fathers where quite clear on this, and any state joining signs up for this long term goal.
I can guarantee you that a lot of citizens who are involved with anything dealing with more than two EU members are quite happy with the Union influencing the local legislation.
I for example have been living in 4 different member states, and often spend weekends with the in-laws in a fifth. The Union's influence on local legislation using directives and the Euro is absolutely essential for making life bearable for millions of people. As an example, due to the EU influence on the local legislation, a person moving to another state does for example no longer have to exchange their drivers licence any more (in my case, I would have had to change it 3 times during the last 5 years if the old rules would have applied). In addition, no paperwork has to be filled in if you get a job in another member state, this saves tons of money for business and a lot of time for citizens who have to deal with the mess otherwise. I could probably write a full book on how the influence on local legislation simplifies matters a lot.
Re:For the sake of saving time, (Score:5, Insightful)
honestly every westernized nation does this, and in terms of the US/UK/Canada/Australia/New Zealand they all help each other to make it possible, even to each other.
should see some of the stuff the Canadian CSE sets up for allied embassies, sigint at its best except maybe for norwegian installations.
Re:The US is nobody's friend (Score:5, Insightful)
There's another option. Accept the fact that you will never be truly safe, and live with the possibility that any moment could be your last from a terrible accident or crime. While you are alive, however, live your life as freely as possible, harming and infringing on the rights of others as little as you can while still participating in a modern, thriving, society.
I'd rather a 9/11 size attack happen every generation than suffer through the insults to my dignity and liberty required to prevent it--and in reality you'll never be able to prevent them all anyway. Might as well be free and unsafe, than enslaved and still unsafe.
Why are we focusing on the wrong problem? (Score:4, Insightful)
More than half of the discussion I hear recently is about how awful it is that the US is spying on other countries. I'm baffled by this. Of course we spy on other countries. And they spy on us. And each other. That's what the CIA/NSA/KGB/etc are for. That's their role, am I incorrect?
The issue isn't "ermagherd, we're spyin' on other countries!". It's "holy fuck, our own government is spying on its own citizens, even though they are expressly forbidden from doing so".
Re:For the sake of saving time, (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:For the sake of saving time, (Score:5, Insightful)
They have to spy on everybody, because anybody could be, or become, a terrorist, either willingly or unwillingly.
The only people that can be trusted are obviously only a small group of people close to the President, and a handful of Congressmen and Senators.
Yes I think there are around 400 to 500 of them which collectively own and control our system. They can be trusted because of their mass wealth and the fact that any thing they want whether legal or not will be given to them. They have no reason to get involved with messy religious martyrdom products practiced by poor ignorant brown people. I mean after all they select few have no souls to begin with so why bother with anything other than money an power. If they gamble their money away the government will always cover the lost since they are to-big-to-fail and it was really the consumers fault somehow anyway,
Welcome to our brave new world, It only gets worse from here on out. Start stashing water and food some place safe for when the riots start. There is no way to know when but I'd say with-in the next 10 years the US will be coming apart at its seams... People are perfectly happy to watch TV and ignore everything until they are starving from lack of affordable food and massive inflation in each and every sector of our economy. When people start going hungry (I think congress just failed to pass the farm bill for the first time in 40 years). That's the food stamps program among other thing.. Yeah people get really pissed off really fast when they can't have their Mt Dew and Cheeto's. Doesn't mater if the SNAP program is right or wrong when you are being mugged at knife point so someone can by some Raymons,,, These poor people might be leaching of the rest of us but putting them in jail costs more and they aren't going to suffer like some here would love to see. No they will attack and it will be random and bloody. Think about that the next time you are talking with your friends about cutting mental health and food/medical assistance from the poor. You are being short sighted and you and your family with pay, one way or another...
Re:Russia? (Score:5, Insightful)
I probably would have flown to Laos.
Unlike HK or Moscow, the CIA would not think twice about illegally kidnapping him from Laos.
Re:For the sake of saving time, (Score:5, Insightful)
Can't you imagine that maybe he actually loves his country and would like it to stop being on a slippery slope ?
You might disagree with his opinions, and believe that his revelations on reveal "normal things", but he does not seems to be doing these for any personal gain, nor out of spite.
Of course if "right or wrong my country" is your motto, then you are in a dangerous place, "following orders" is not an ethical choice, and just put you in the wast camp of the "banal evil".
Of course maybe you where trying to be "funy", but impersonating a moron does not always work
Re:For the sake of saving time, (Score:4, Insightful)
Yes I think there are around 400 to 500 of them which collectively own and control our system. They can be trusted because of their mass wealth and the fact that any thing they want whether legal or not will be given to them. They have no reason to get involved with messy religious martyrdom products practiced by poor ignorant brown people. I mean after all they select few have no souls to begin with so why bother with anything other than money an power. If they gamble their money away the government will always cover the lost since they are to-big-to-fail and it was really the consumers fault somehow anyway,
I don't get why people think that tremendous wealth is a key to power. Power can always just take wealth or sell its exclusive services for a high price. But in contrast, the kind of power the NSA exercises here can't be created with just wealth.
As to your complaint about food stamps and such, remember the saying that "a government powerful enough to give you everything you need, is also powerful enough to take away everything you have." All these little services are power - both because of the transfer of wealth (which among other things can be partly diverted for projects such as SNAP) and because creation of a public good inevitably leads to regulation of consumption of that public good to avoid tragedy of commons issues. Consider for that last point, the necessity of collecting information about the potential consumers of the good (who has your mental health data for your mental health care?), enforcement of law (just about every bureau and department has some sort of law enforcement group), and the need to regulate related human behavior (selling food stamps for cash).
Your post is a great example of how people can complain about government abuses of power and yet at the same time advocate giving that government power to abuse. It's all the same government. Why can you trust it with food stamps or mental health care when you can't trust it not to nose around in your affairs or with military matters?
You are being short sighted and you and your family with pay, one way or another...
I'd rather my family pay for their own services rather than my family pay with a loss of freedom. With freedom comes risk. I think that's a great tradeoff.
Re:For the sake of saving time, (Score:4, Insightful)
Clearly you fail to grasp what is really happening. This is another example of the tail wagging the dog. All the corporate contractors providing services for the CIA/NSA have turned around and taken over those government bodies and are now actively involved in corporate espionage, for private for profit advantage. Rampant corruption of those bodies by the military industrial complex, for the benefit of the corporations. Whether it be massive data gathering for extortion of public and elected officials and their families or the silencing of all opposition throw exposure and intimidation.
You are basically seeing the activity of psychopaths who should be in prison, attempting to gain total control by creating a digital panopticon http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panopticon [wikipedia.org], via all device connected to the internet.