Snowden's Big Truth: We Are All Less Free 583
chicksdaddy writes "In the days since stories based on classified information leaked by former NSA contractor Edward Snowden hit the headlines, a string of reports and editorials claim that he had his facts wrong, accuse him of treason – or both. Others have accused journalists like Glen Greenwald of The Guardian of rushing to print before they had all the facts. All of these criticisms could be valid. Technology firms may not have given intelligence agencies unfettered and unchecked access to their users' data. Edward Snowden may be, as the New York Times's David Brooks suggests, one of those 20-something-men leading a 'life unshaped by the mediating institutions of civil society.' All those critiques may be true without undermining the larger truth of Snowden's revelation: in an age of global, networked communications and interactions, we are all a lot less free than we thought we were. I say this because nobody has seriously challenged the basic truth of Snowden's leak: that many of the world's leading telecommunications and technology firms are regularly divulging information about their users' activities and communications to law enforcement and intelligence agencies based on warrantless requests and court reviews that are hidden from public scrutiny. It hasn't always been so."
Bruce Schneier has published an opinion piece saying that while Snowden did break the law, we need to investigate the government before any prosecution occurs. (Schneier's piece is one in a series on the subject.) Snowden himself said in an interview today that the U.S. government has been pursuing hacking operations against China for years.
Are we capable of freedom? (Score:5, Insightful)
Are birds free from the chains of the skyway?
Not news for the observant folks.... (Score:5, Insightful)
This is what happens when a government declares 'War' on an idea, or other abstract.
Crusades
Spanish Inquisition
Prohibition
The War on Drugs
The War on Terrorism
etc.
We don't seem able to learn from history, or past mistakes.
We have allowed the Constitution to be folded, spindled, and mutilated...then used for asswipe.
We are overdue for another Revolution.
he is guilty of the ultimate crime (Score:3, Insightful)
inconveniencing those who have power, without having any power himself
anonymity is the only defense the weak have against the powerful, that is why the powerful are working so hard to destroy it
Obligatory Quote (Score:4, Insightful)
Had to be said.
Re:Snowden is fucked (Score:5, Insightful)
How is it treason? Is he levying war against the United States? Is he siding with the enemies of the United States?
civil society (Score:5, Insightful)
life unshaped by the mediating institutions of civil society
would this be the same civil society whose past mediations have helped perpetuate the institution of slavery and policies of racial discrimination? or is this some other, perfectly enlightened civil society that has at some point between those primeval days and now descended from the heavens to rid us of the need for such crackpots and radicals as might resist its influence?
Re:Who watches the watchers? (Score:5, Insightful)
... and petty power corrupts all out of proportion anyways.
We've lost freedom constantly. Freedom to alter things we PURCHASED? Check. All the freedoms associated with actually making a purchase? Gone to shrink-wrap agreements, "End User License Agreements", and other bullshit that makes a purchase not really a purchase.
Onboard computers in cars: now you can't clear the code or find out what's wrong on a new-model car without going to the dealership because they lag behind and won't sell your local mechanic the adapter and the reader software. Friend of mine got his brakes changed on a volkswagen model and an alarm started blaring off; turned out VW stuck a sensor in the brake pads that causes the alarm if it's not found, and the normal size-compatible pads from 3rd party makers didn't have the sensor.
NSA tracking is the tip of the iceberg, the consumer got fucked in the ass long ago.
Re:Snowden is fucked (Score:5, Insightful)
Given the embarrassment he's caused for the US government, he will suffer consequences, there's no doubt about that.
There, I fixed it for you. I will never begrudge a man like Snowden who exposes constitutional violations by the government.
The guy is a hero (Score:5, Insightful)
This is a high-school dropout who gave up a $200k yr. job, an acrobat girlfriend and was living in Hawaii -- things I would have given my left nut to have.
Yes, he gave that all up because, get this, he is one of the few people in this nation that actually understands the Constitution.
The Constitution is the highest law in the land. It's supposed to control our government so they do not do PRECISELY what they are doing. It's supposed to prevent us from falling into tyranny.
But most of us do not care. He did. He's a hero.
Re:Snowden is fucked (Score:5, Insightful)
I like the idea that our rights and laws can only be understood by specialized lawyers, but they're supposed to apply to us and ignorance is not a defense.
It's a completely irrational state of affairs, and the best part is when people criticize others using it.
Comment removed (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Snowden is fucked (Score:5, Insightful)
he has committed an extremely serious act of treason
Cunts like you are what has ruined this country. You probably would have voted for Nixon with glee.
The idea that exposing government malfeasance is treason is the most insidious bullshit I have ever heard. If the government does it, it IS illegal, and it SHOULD be exposed. Anything less is the real treason--treason against the people.
Re:Snowden is fucked (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm struggling to find sympathy for him personally, as he has committed an extremely serious act of treason.
Article 3, section 3 of the US Constitution: "Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort."
He most definitely has not committed treason. He did commit a crime by disclosing classified information, but I think we need to first investigate and determine whether the government was indeed breaking the law. It cannot be illegal to reveal classified information relating to illegal activity. Otherwise, our government would be able to act completely unchecked by simply choosing to classify information on what they are doing, with no justification.
Re:Are we capable of freedom? (Score:5, Insightful)
Gaining freedom is usually difficult enough. Keeping freedom in a entirely new challenge, requiring virtuous behavior over the long term. That is difficult for most peoples and nations when faced with changing circumstances over time.
Re:Snowden is fucked (Score:0, Insightful)
Yes. The reason why he's angered the US government so badly, is because he's divulged sensitive information that has damaged American interests. By telling the Chinese and the world that the US spies on them and leaking important details, he has empowered our enemies. Furthermore, he fled to China to escape US justice, and then did a weak post-hoc justification of fleeing to an enemy country by saying "well, they believe in free speech"(China! Free speech!).
I stand by what I said. He's knowingly committed suicide by doing this. He's shit on the country he was supposed to be serving, and has betrayed their interests. That's low.
"American Interests" pretty much amounts to "American Corporate Interests". Just chimed in to fix it for you. The interests of the population are irrelevant.
Re:Snowden is fucked (Score:5, Insightful)
Given the damage he's done to the US and the West
Snowden has done no damage to the US and the West. On the contrary, he has done us all a huge favor by bringing abuses of our rights to light.
Now, the criminals who set up this illegal surveillance program, THEY have done extreme damage to the US.
he has committed an extremely serious act of treason.
No, that would be the criminals responsible for implementing PRISM.
Re:Snowden is fucked (Score:5, Insightful)
That is not the same as declaring war on the USofA.
How? Look up ECHELON. The story here is how much the USofA spies on its own citizens.
So China is an "enemy country"?
Where do you think your mobile phone is manufactured? If they're an "enemy" then we certainly do a lot to help their economy and employment.
Taking a stand is not the same as committing suicide.
Our Founding Fathers signed the Declaration of Independence knowing that their signatures would be used to convict them if they lost the war. But it was not a suicide pact. It was them standing up for their beliefs.
Anything else is tyranny.
Re:*NO ONE* has freedom (Score:5, Insightful)
Intelligent people invite opposing opinions and welcome discussions that may change each other's mind. Mindless goons with clubs and "loud" words don't seek to convince, they seek to demand. It's clear what camp you are in.
Example of Transitive logic (Score:5, Insightful)
Edward Snowden has defected to China.
Currently, only North Koreans will defect to China.
Therefore we can conclude that Snowden is from North Korea or a comparable nation.
Q.E.D.
Re:Snowden is fucked (Score:4, Insightful)
They are doing it to foil terrorist attacks (and they've gone on the record saying that gathered intelligence has foiled "dozens" of terrorists attacks).
Of course they would say that. How do we know it's actually true?
Western spying is subject to a tremendous amount of oversight by the right people (and if you'll excuse me, Slashdot keyboard warriors aren't "the right people").
The whole point of Snowden's leak is that that is not true. There is essentially no oversight. Definately not enough oversight to comply with the 4th amendment.
Re:And water is wet (Score:5, Insightful)
Not just that. Freedom is scary. There are always lots of "reasonable" arguments to give up some freedom (even just for a little while) in order to defeat or defend against the "bad guys".
You don't want your freedom getting in the way of fighting the bad guys, do you?
The bad guys will abuse your freedom so that they can attack us good guys.
As always, Fascism begins when the efficiency of the Government becomes more important than the Rights of the People.
Re:he is guilty of the ultimate crime (Score:5, Insightful)
So the American Revolution never happened? Universal Sufferage, The Civil Rights Act, etc never got passed?
Re:*NO ONE* has freedom (Score:0, Insightful)
Bad news, big guy:
* Rich people have no interest or desire to have the impoverished masses to own guns. See also the Russian revolution of 1917 and how it turned out for the "bourgeoisie", what with all the poor folk.
* You operate under the assumption that libertarians want to do whatever they want, government be damned. That's a rather stupid assumption considering that most simply want government to stop over-regulating and return to a smaller and less-intrusive form of itself. But then, you libs always were more than happy to operate on bad assumptions (or rather, just parrot what you're told to).
* You operate under another bad assumption: that "freedom" is some absolute thing. It isn't (otherwise you have anarchy). Instead, it is relative, and increases or declines with governmental control. Saying that one is "free" is much faster than saying "I'm among the freest citizens on the planet."
Intelligence is knowing your personal weaknesses
...and yet your biggest weakness, that of ignorance, isn't recognized by you. Seems that you can't even match your own ideal.
But you know, hey - continue to feel all smug and superior - the rest of us will continue to laugh at you.
Re:Snowden is fucked (Score:4, Insightful)
They are doing it to foil terrorist attacks (and they've gone on the record saying that gathered intelligence has foiled "dozens" of terrorists attacks).
The cutest part is that you actually believe this crap. Yeah they pinky swear this time that it's only to catch terrorists. It not like the government has been caught secretly spying on US citizens before for political reasons.
Re:Obligatory Quote (Score:5, Insightful)
Benjamin Franklin opened other people's mail for intelligence purposes during the Revolutionary War.
We did during WWII as well, and the director of the office was very, very happy the day he shut it down. War time is different from the day-to-day, and this is not war time.
Certainly. Private details about our associations and communications are being seized blindly by the government without warrant. If they are not outright violating the 4th Amendment, then they are working around it so effectively as to neutralize it.
Only if we let it go unchecked and let it become accepted.
Re:Snowden is fucked (Score:5, Insightful)
Ultimately, if we the people allow the government the power to know everything about our daily activities, the inevitable eventual outcome is a totalitarian police state.
As for you're statement that "Western spying is subject to a tremendous amount of oversight by the right people" ... that is clearly false ... without truthful testimony to Congress, congressional oversight is meaningless.
Re:Snowden is fucked (Score:2, Insightful)
It's odd that I never heard Obama being described as "one of the foremost experts in Constitutional law" *before* all the violations of recent years since he's been President. Of all people you would have thought that someone with the power of veto and such insight might have exercised it...
But what do I know. I'm watching this from the UK, where we don't even have a constitution.
scheiner didnt name what law was broken (Score:5, Insightful)
its really presumptous to say someone broke a law without a fair trial
Re:And water is wet (Score:5, Insightful)
As a Brit, I've always wondered about how you guys look back on the revolution. Since the US was created out of a revolutionary war you'd think that there could be no act that is more than in keeping with the spirit and founding principles of the republic than seeking to overthrow a government that has overstepped its bounds. But most of your 'patriotic' type pundits seem to view any form of anti-establishment sentiment as either communism or treason.
In the UK we've never really gone in for violent revolution, so I can understand why our national identity doesn't lend itself to direct action. But you guys are always going on about the glory of the republic and the benefits that you gained via armed struggle against the state. How do you keep those sort if ideas straight in your heads alongside the sort of 'my country, right or wrong' jingoism that has you reciting oaths of loyalty in school and so forth?
Re:And water is wet (Score:4, Insightful)
Everyone thinks he's a hero.
But no one is willing to stand alongside him and shake a collective fist against the government for fear of 'reprisals'.
We've lost.
Re:Not quite. (Score:4, Insightful)
If Snowden keeps calling the government out on its lies and providing evidence that embarrasses those currently in power, he will be made to disappear without any trial at all.
It's embarrassing for the US govt that it hacked China? It's not as if China has any superior technology the US wants to steal. The US govt simply wants to know what China is up to, since China happens to back a rogue states with nukes and missiles that occasionally saber-rattle about evaporating cities if their extortion demands aren't met.
Re:And water is wet (Score:5, Insightful)
Dude, you beheaded your own king...
Re:Obligatory Quote (Score:5, Insightful)
How so? Seriously. If you impinged upon the First Amendment how is it not useless? Once you find an exception to it, you can keep cutting it back further and further and argue, endlessly, that it doesn't actually infringe. We have this problem right now.
These statements are mutually exclusive.
Are you seriously suggesting that all convictions are both correct and just?
A citizen of this nation. What nation is irrelevant, because the laws of every nation should be subject to scrutiny by its citizens. Or are you going to appeal to authority here?
Re:The guy is a hero (Score:5, Insightful)
We have people aged 18, and in the past younger, who have been authorized to kill people by the government, and you're trying to tell us that a 29 year old does not have the maturity and mental capacity to understand the slightest thing about these issues? Who does? Is the answer something like "The people in charge, that we should all be listening to, because they know what is best for us"? Is there any point where you believe a person can have a moral stance separate from authority? I would be interested to know what would qualify for you. On the other hand... I think maybe I'm just falling for an old internet game.
Also, you have managed to withhold your sympathy.
Congratulations on making the world a better place.
Re:Obligatory Quote (Score:5, Insightful)
We? On the contrary, they were made for us in favor of others. The DMCA, for instance, violates the 1st Amendment. But it was rammed through despite that.
I seem to recall that argument having been ridiculed recently, that it would not work against a minimally sane populace nor would it be more dangerous than an actual fire alarm going off (other than people telling you to shut up.)
This isn't relevant to the discussion. Not once has killing people ever been mentioned as an essential liberty. Nice straw man though.
Rather, the extents are compromised and violated for whatever short term expedience serves those in power.
Sure it does. It just means their lifespan is limited unless you push back and reclaim them.
A justice system that regularly violates and cuts back essential rights under the claim that doing so will provide increased security is not merely imperfect, but fatally flawed and will in no way "advance the greater good." It will lead to a consolidation of power in the hands of those in said government and nothing more.
I did? Or are you just utterly mad. Keep in mind that the quote (possibly paraphrased) "I would rather see a hundred guilty men go free than one innocent man be imprisoned" came from the same group of men that Franklin stood with.
Which would be an improvement.
Oops, you just failed. You've missed the mark on the topic here, which was the essential freedoms noted in the constitution and bill of rights. Abrogation of those does nothing what so fucking ever to guarantee me a "certain degree of safety."
Re:And water is wet (Score:5, Insightful)
The Pledge of Allegiance is not jingoistic in any way. That's some sort of weird European hangup over something that's little different from singing a national anthem.
Bull fucking shit. Anyone who actually grew up in the US knows better than that.
It is jingoistic, nobody else does anything remotely like it, and when you get right down to it, it's weird.
Re:Snowden is fucked (Score:4, Insightful)
The difference though (at least from my point of view) is that the tin-foil hat wearing conspiracy brigade never had any actual real evidence to justify their complaints that the government was listening in on everything.
Snowden has flipped that around. It's no longer a suspected conspiracy theory, because it has been proven to exist (... assuming his evidence pans out to be real, which I have no reason to doubt at the moment).