Federal Judge Says Interns Should Be Paid 540
An anonymous reader writes "Student interns are typically relegated to menial tasks like fetching coffee and taking out the trash, the idea being that they get paid in experience instead of money. On Tuesday, Manhattan Federal District Court Judge William H. Pauley disagreed, ruling in favor of two interns who sued Fox Searchlight Pictures to be paid for their work on the 2010 film Black Swan. The interns did chores that otherwise would have been performed by paid employees. Pauley ruled, in accordance with criteria laid out by the U.S. Department of Labor, that unpaid internships should be educational in nature and specifically structured to the benefit of the intern, and reasoned that if interns are going to do grunt work like regular employees, then they should be paid like regular employees."
The article seems to imply that this might be the beginning of the end for the rampant abuse of unpaid internships: "Judge Pauley rejected the argument made by many companies to adopt a 'primary benefit test' to determine whether an intern should be paid, specifically whether 'the internship’s benefits to the intern outweigh the benefits to the engaging entity.' Judge Pauley wrote that such a test would be too subjective and unpredictable."
Genius judge (Score:2, Insightful)
If you have to pay interns like regular employees, what's the point of hiring interns?
Re:Genius judge (Score:5, Insightful)
It's not the judge's job to defend the internship concept.
Re:Genius judge (Score:5, Informative)
But it is the judge's job to determine if working someone without pay is legal or not.
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While rulings like this are well meaning, they will hurt more than help in many cases.
Much like minimum wage, making it higher...a living wage, hurts low end job markets. It isn't MEANT to be a living wage for supporting a family. These jobs are for kids, living at home still or maybe in college...
We need these jobs that teach kids skills, and/or allow them to start to earn money, and find out what it entails for working a job, dependability and responsibility, and how
Re:Genius judge (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Genius judge (Score:5, Informative)
"There are plenty of paid internships out there already"
That's a pretty broad statement that ignores a number of facts, such as:
1) Not every field has paid internships
2) Not every field has internships readily available
3) Not every location has companies nearby willing to take on interns (think small cities and rural areas)
4) Not every paid internship is flexible enough to be viable
5) Not every internship meets the educational requirements some schools have for it to count
Re:Genius judge (Score:5, Insightful)
Unpaid internships are used as a class barrier in many industries. It is simply too expensive for any "lower class plebs" to get into fashion or whatever, because they have to pay cost of living in some place like New York for years on no wage to get a foot in the door.
Re:Genius judge (Score:5, Interesting)
Unpaid internships are used as a class barrier in many industries. It is simply too expensive for any "lower class plebs" to get into fashion or whatever, because they have to pay cost of living in some place like New York for years on no wage to get a foot in the door.
That is a huge clue to me that the job market for that industry is crap and I shouldn't be bothering with it. In certain industries, there will be 10 people standing behind you willing to do your job for less money and while working longer hours. I have a friend who used to work for a car crash-testing company. The hours pushed 80 hours a week, every week, and the pay was crap. But the company never had to look hard to find someone to work for them. That is not a career. That is a human gristmill.
Re:Genius judge (Score:5, Insightful)
Unpaid internships are a scam. If the intern isn't doing work worth paying him minimum wage, what's the point of the internship? It becomes a rite of passage instead of on-the-job education.
Re:Genius judge (Score:4, Insightful)
If an internship is done properly for the benefit of the intern, then it's worth doing it unpaid.
That's true, but the cost to an organization of having an internship like yours is already much greater than paying you minimum wage. It took your boss's time, facilities, etc. etc. If it's worth it to an organization to have an intern do real internship work, then paying minimum wage shouldn't be a barrier.
Re:Genius judge (Score:5, Interesting)
"There are plenty of paid internships out there already"
That's a pretty broad statement that ignores a number of facts, such as:
.....
3) Not every location has companies nearby willing to take on interns (think small cities and rural areas)
4) Not every paid internship is flexible enough to be viable
These are one of the biggest advantages of paid internships. The "real" job market doesn't have an XXXX in every podunk town. The "real" job market often is inflexible and not viable for certain careers in certain locations. My university had 2 co-ops as a graduation requirement. I didn't want to stay in Maine anyway, but it forced me to pack my stuff into my car, rent a room for 3 months on Craigslist, and work in a moderate-sized city. It forced me to live independently and handle my own affairs. It eliminated any fear I had about moving cross-country for a job. It reinforced in me the idea that getting a job often has nothing to do with your experience and everything to do with your connections. These are not drawbacks. This is the way the world works. It is invaluable experience.
Re:Genius judge (Score:5, Insightful)
We need these jobs that teach kids skills, and/or allow them to start to earn money, and find out what it entails for working a job, dependability and responsibility, and how to manage money.
They can't very well learn to manage money when they aren't earning any.
some schools make you pay for the credits (Score:4, Insightful)
some schools make you pay for the credits so work for free and pay to get credit for it.
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Some schools have enrollment and un-enrollment forms for this reason. Also, when was an internship ever about credits rather than getting your foot in the door?
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When I did mine?
I had to do 9 months worth. It was a requirement for graduation. Had to be paid and had to be in the field of my degree.
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Sure, for a charity. Volunteering at a for profit is not legal. http://www.dol.gov/elaws/esa/flsa/docs/volunteers.asp [dol.gov]
Nice try, but that cite doesn't support your claim. It says that:
Under the FLSA, employees may not volunteer services to for-profit private sector employers.
As a volunteer, I am not an employee. If you read the second sentence of what you cite:
However, the Supreme Court has made it clear that the FLSA was not intended "to stamp all persons as employees who without any express or implied compensation agreement might work for their own advantage on the premises of another."
In other words, the Supreme Court has ruled that volunteers are not employees under FLSA. As long as I'm not doing so with "express or implied compensation", I'm a volunteer. Clearly, it is not "implied compensation" for one to garner experience working in a field (such as the interns in this case), otherwise that would be their fairly agreed-to compensati
Re:some schools make you pay for the credits (Score:5, Funny)
Is it possible for anyone to have a conversation on the Internet without being a gigantic dick?
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I did 9 months of paid internships to get my degree. Unpaid internships would not have counted.
They are not coffee fetching jobs.
Re:Genius judge (Score:5, Insightful)
Well, say goodbye to internships...
Try having a look at a country where this has long been established in law, and you'll find internships are flourishing.
What we've said goodbye to is the exploitation of free labour to do menial tasks that offered no real benefit to the intern. There's a great scheme in Scotland where the enterprise development agency funds internships for students/recent graduates at new startups. There are strict conditions attached to the money, as the internship has to be directly related to a specific project, so that the intern is exposed to the full lifecycle and gets genuine experience to talk about at interview. This gives the businesses the opportunity to take a chance on something new or different, benefiting everyone. (Normally.) In fact, there's a great history of companies taking on their interns after, as these companies are at a stage of rapid expansion.
Re:Genius judge (Score:5, Interesting)
Internships are even flourishing in US industries where paid internships are the norm. I'm in Engineering, and I've never heard of anybody doing an unpaid internship. My alma mater's current statistics say interns in my field from the past year earned between $13 and $38 per hour, and $20/hour on average. (Full-time work after graduation pays $20-$53/hour, $35 on average.)
Supply and demand factors a lot into this - good engineers are usually in demand, and there are many companies that will pay top dollar for both interns and full-time workers. In many industries, though, there is an excess supply of workers relative to jobs. This is how you end up with newspapers that have unpaid internships for journalism students - there are so many people that can do the job that they'll work for free. Similarly, you get people that are caught by the aura of the silver screen; they want to be big-time actors or movie producers, and they see that unpaid internship as their ticket in; but there are far too many of them for far too few jobs. (Especially if you count the labor pool that isn't lured to that particular industry, but is just generally qualified for that line of work - such as fetching lunch and coffee, answering phones, and assembling office furniture, as these interns did. Seems like an appropriate use for an MBA...)
I think the judge's decision as summarized above makes sense - if they're doing real work, they deserve at least minimum wage. If you just want to run them through training classes and exercises, then by all means, they can do no work for no pay.
The reason to hire paid interns is this: they get some money and experience. You get a worker that costs less, and a trial period to see if you like them. If they perform very well, you invite them back for another internship (if they're still in school) or a full-time job (if they're almost done), and bring their increased experience with them. If they perform poorly, then you know not to hire them again. This process is far easier for the employer than hiring somebody only to find out they stink, and then firing them. A sizable percentage of my employer's full-time workers started as interns; and a sizable percentage of interns are invited back for full-time positions.
Re:Genius judge (Score:5, Insightful)
this doesnt stop unpaid internships.
RTFA.
this stops unpaid interns being used as free labor for activites that cannot be onsidered educational. two film school students being given an internship on a movie and being used as unpaid labor instead of being TAUGHT THINGS. that is the sort of thing being stopped. not unpaid internships as a whole, but those which are simply trying to get free labor and not fulfilling the educational requirement.
Re:Genius judge (Score:5, Insightful)
Hire an intern. Pay them well. Treat them well. Give them the best training your company can provide. After their 3months -> year placement, send them back to complete their degree knowing far more than when they arrived at your company.
If you do this (and really it isn't very hard), then the intern will usually contact you before they've spoken to any other companies (which means you get the long term pay off). They'll also tell the other students in their year that you're a really cool company (which leads to more CV's arriving in your office), and they'll also tell their lecturers how great you were at training them (which usually means those same lecturers will pass you details on their best students for next year).
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Not sure they're all gushing at how wonderful we are, but I'm quite sure none will be telling horror stories and I hope they realize how very decent this company actually is. A lot of them probably lack experience working truly horrific jobs to properly gush. I did after I started here, compared to my last pl
Re:Genius judge (Score:5, Informative)
In most societies it would have been illegal to have them working without pay. What to expect does not make that legal. The judge is correct.
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To get your foot in the door, some "interns" may not even call it an internship to avoid getting paid and picking up the experience instead as volunteer work. The part I'm really missing is if everybody wanted a paid internship why would anybody accept an unpaid one?
Re:Genius judge (Score:5, Insightful)
Volunteering at for profit businesses is generally speaking illegal. Calling it something else does not fool the law. I would imagine they have trouble finding paid internships and outside pressure like college credits requires them to do this work.
Re:Genius judge (Score:5, Informative)
http://www.dol.gov/elaws/esa/flsa/docs/volunteers.asp [dol.gov]
If this is the sort of basic facts you do not know, you really should not be discussing this in public.
Re:Genius judge (Score:5, Insightful)
I offered you a plain donut, you accepted a plain donut, that's the contract. Offer and acceptance. And that would probably be the last free donuts the office got.
Now in plain fact YOU didn't offer anyone a "free donut": the corporation did. This is a critical distinction.
Corporations exist solely by virtue of Nanny State interference in the operations of the Free Market.
This gives corporations--which offer internships--a vastly privileged position in the negotiations they undertake with potential employees, interns, etc.
Again: corporations are a privileged form of social organization by statute (the reforms to the Companies Act in Great Britain in the 1850's, and similar acts passed by parliaments and congresses around the world.) I own a corporation, and when I incorporated I did not engage in free an uncoerced trade with my fellow humans: I filed forms with the government that upon approval gave me as a corporate owner certain legal, state-defined and state-protected privileges that my employees do not have the benefit of.
Advocates of Corporatism like yourself tend to forget this little detail: you as the owner or agent of a corporation have the backing of the massive, coercive power of the State. Your employees do not.
So quit pretending you live in some mythical Free Market where the Nanny State hasn't tilted the scales massively in your favour. Show a little humanity and humility and decency, and remember that what the State giveth the People can damned well take away.
Re:Genius judge (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Genius judge (Score:4, Insightful)
Now in plain fact YOU didn't offer anyone a "free donut": the corporation did. This is a critical distinction.
Not really. Someone in the corporation made the decision, they made the offer.
This gives corporations--which offer internships--a vastly privileged position in the negotiations they undertake with potential employees, interns, etc.
Untrue. As a potential intern I am free to accept or decline any offer. The "Nanny State" does not give the company the right to force me to accept what they offer. As a corporation I cannot stuff unfrosted donuts down the throats of my employees, I can only offer them the option and let them decide.
you as the owner or agent of a corporation have the backing of the massive, coercive power of the State. Your employees do not.
Wow. You've identified yourself as a corporate owner that employees should stay away from, simply because you think you have the "massive coercive power of the State" behind you. "You vill eat that cheap donut, employee. Ve haf vays of making you eat..."
Show a little humanity and humility and decency, and remember that what the State giveth the People can damned well take away.
You're the one claiming massive coercive power given to you by some mythical State, and I'm the one who needs to learn humility? Yes, I guess you'd think that based on your Power And Leverage over Mortal Man. Perhaps you ought to notice that a large part of labor law deals with LIMITING what you, in your Massive Coercive Mode, can actually do to anyone. Perhaps an experiment is in order to help you identify your mistakes? Why don't you, as Corporate Overlord, try ordering your female employees (but only the pretty ones) to wear bikinis to work on Friday. That's a simple test of your power over them granted by the State, I think. If you can do that and not wind up with a NLRB complaint that sticks, more power to you. You've successfully cowed your female workers into thinking you have power that you really don't. My guess would be that you'd be found guilty of sexual harassment upon complaints of the pretty women, and discrimination from a complaint by the ugly ones, and fined a bit of money. But, until you try, and since you think you're that powerful, you have no reason not to, right? Pictures or it didn't happen.
Re:Genius judge (Score:4)
In most societies it would have been illegal to have them working without pay.
That may be true. But in a free society, they would have been paid exactly what they contracted for before they started the internship. The rights of the two parties to the contract would have had some significance, and a court would not come in later and overturn an agreement between two free people who voluntarily entered an agreement for legal activities.
What to expect does not make that legal. The judge is correct.
Of course what to expect makes it legal. If I agree to work for you for free, and thus I expect no payment, that should be perfectly legal. I voluntarily agreed to do that. You agreed to the same. How is that illegal? Why should any sane person think it was illegal?
What this court has ruled is that I can go to a business and offer to work for free for a chance to show them I can do what they need done and maybe they'll hire me, or to learn something from them by doing. They can say "ok" or they can say "no". Suppose they say "yes, here, do this..." Then, after I've done work for them I can sue for back pay because they should have paid me. That's nuts. That's absolutely ridiculous. If you care to notice, that "work for free as an introduction to me" is something that is, or at least has been, suggested to people here who want to break into the software design field but who don't have formal schooling or a current resume. Collectively, we have told people to do exactly this 'free intern' thing.
If that company cannot have me do anything that they would normally pay someone to do then there is no advantage to them in having me there. In fact, I'm a liability since a paid employee would need to supervise me. Or any unpaid intern, for that matter. Any productive activity I perform they would have had to pay someone to do, thus I can do nothing productive. If I can do nothing productive, the value of the experience is worthless to me, too. Given the new "sue for back pay" option, no sane company would say "ok" anymore. Not only are they opening themselves up for an unexpected liability, they've lost the right to negotiate the pay for the work and a judge will decide for them.
Now, had there been coercion or force, or a breach of contract, then yes, courts should become involved. And, of course, you can't legally volunteer to do something illegal for someone else, but then, in this case we know the actions weren't illegal because the claim was they would have been legally performed by paid employees. I.e., if it is legal to pay someone to do work for you, it should be just as legal to let an unpaid volunteer or intern do it. (I note that many unions have negotiated contracts that prohibit volunteers doing their work, but that's a contractual issue and not a legal one.)
This case could have repercussions not only for all unpaid internships, but for all volunteer work. Every place I volunteer I've agreed to do work for no pay. I am doing things, in every case, that they'd have to pay someone to do if a volunteer didn't do it. I could make a fortune, now, by suing companies (and various branches of the government) for back pay. That, alone, should show how nuts this judge is.
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Volunteering at a for profit business is not generally speaking legal.
Citation required.
Free labor is illegal, for many reasons think a little.
Forced free labor is illegal for obvious reasons. Voluntary free labor should not be, think a little.
Without consideration a contract is not valid. There must be quid pro quo.
You've just given an opinion why a contract might not be valid, but that says nothing about the legality. I can work for someone without a contract. I can also agree to work for someone for non-monetary compensation.
But, and here's the important point, if I make a contract to work for someone for that non-monetary compensation, the courts should stay out of it, and certainly not grant
Re:Genius judge (Score:4, Insightful)
You've just given an opinion why a contract might not be valid, but that says nothing about the legality. I can work for someone without a contract. I can also agree to work for someone for non-monetary compensation.
Which the students did and in a court-of-law they proved the company failed to provide the required non-monetary compensation that had been promised.
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Holy shit you're an idiot! Read this sentence:
Holy shit, I QUOTED that sentence. Did you miss the word "EMPLOYEES"? I guess so.
Now read this sentence: The Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA) defines employment very broadly, i.e., "to suffer or permit to work."
Now read THIS sentence, which is in the same link:
I'm sure you didn't miss it, it's the very next sentence, clarifying the actual intent of FLSA and giving the sentiment of the court on the matter
Re:Genius judge (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Genius judge (Score:4, Insightful)
When Dick married Hetty, the Anderson house was next door. The two families agreed to sell either Dick or Hetty, whichever consented to be sold. Hetty refused outright, and the Andersons sold Dick that he might be with his wife. This was magnanimous on the Andersons' part, for Hetty was only a lady's-maid and Dick was a trained butler, on whom Mrs. Anderson had spent no end of pains in his dining-room education, and, of course, if they had refused to sell Dick, Hetty would have had to go to them. Mrs. Anderson was very much disgusted with Dick's ingratitude when she found he was willing to leave them. As a butler he is a treasure; he is overwhelmed with dignity, but that does not interfere with his work at all.
Clearly the slave owning society feel they are being overly generous by giving an education to their property. They even gave him a choice of where to work for free! Your vision of society fits perfectly in line with the Antebellum south. (To be clear, I'm not calling you a racist, you're just pro-slavery which is actually frowned upon in most societies in the 21st century)
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So...
since you can't figure it out yourself: the difference between an intern and a slave is the ability to say no.
My point is opportunity sometimes outweighs the downside of not getting paid.
In the entrepreneurship, this concept is so basic I feel a little ridiculous explaining it to you.
And you know what else is frowned upon in society? People who read slave owner's diarys', HMMM.
Re:Genius judge (Score:4, Insightful)
I fully understand the concept of being so desperate to have a job that you are willing to work for free in the hopes that it one day turns into a paying job. Ergo, you think the system is fair, because work experience is the payment rather than money. Are you aware that most slave-owners considered themselves to be good people? From the slavers perspective they provided free shelter, food and clothing to their slaves, and gave them a better quality of life, and longer life expectancy. They provided all these things in lieu of a salary, thus, it was in their eyes a fair system. You are echoing thousands of pro-slavery arguments from two centuries ago when you say that tertiary benefits make up for not paying a wage.
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Re:Genius judge (Score:5, Insightful)
If you have to pay interns like regular employees, what's the point of hiring interns?
Because some of them are good enough that you will want to employ them later but you can't really tell which ones from a conventional interview.
Personally I think no-one should be employed for zero pay, interns are not slaves.
Re:Genius judge (Score:5, Funny)
There are jobs that people really, really, really want to do for zero pay. Why wouldn't you allow them to make that decision for themselves?
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That's called volunteering and is not a "job".
Re:Genius judge (Score:5, Informative)
There are jobs that people really, really, really want to do for zero pay. Why wouldn't you allow them to make that decision for themselves?
Why don't we allow people to sell themselves into slavery? Because as a society we long ago decided that slavery was immoral. Why don't we allow people to contract themselves into a period of indentured servitude? Because as a society we long ago decided that indentured servitude was immoral. Why don't we allow people to work for profit-making corporations without being paid for their labor? Because as a society we long ago decided...
Note that unpaid internships are legal in 2 broad circumstances: first, of course, working for a non-profit entity, second where the intern is being trained and not performing immediately useful work for the company.
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You've never met a personal assistant for some CEO have you? :)
Also, I agree with OP, make your own decisions, and then take responsibility for them. If you need your hand held, tty mom.
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Re:Genius judge (Score:4, Informative)
Apprentices normally get paid. Go ask a local electrician. No one is saying pay these folks top dollar, just minimum wage or more.
Re:Genius judge (Score:4, Insightful)
The kid can go work at a gas station, or burger king or whatever.
Your situation is bullshit and clearly there is a huge middle ground between your ideology and greece.
Re:Genius judge (Score:4, Insightful)
but some of the no pay interns are doing basic office work / basic labor and not stuff in there fields.
Re:Genius judge (Score:4, Informative)
Actually, I went back and re-read sribe's post. I short-changed it a bit with a knee-jerk reaction. I thought he was simply equating internships with slavery. I didn't read it very well. Sorry sribe, I mischaracterized what you were saying.
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There are several comic books I'd write for in exchange for zero pay. I worked stage crew for several concerts in college for zero pay, entirely voluntarily. Both examples are for-profit enterprises.
And that would be legal. The issue is the companies are making the "interns" do non-internship related tasks.
For example, say a comic book company takes you on as a "production intern" at no pay. Awesome, right? Then they make you spend all the time cleaning out toilets and they fire the janitor. Is that cool with you?
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Really? You would write a comic book for me that I could then sell and keep all the profits from. And you would do this unpaid?
Thank you sir! you will put my kids through college! when can you start?
good enough does not work for office boy interns (Score:2)
good enough does not work for office boy interns where they don't even do real work / do stuff they are not going to school for.
Re:Genius judge (Score:4, Insightful)
The only point I can see is that even if they have to be paid, you still have perfectly legitimate reason to pay them less than you would someone else doing the same work.
The real problem is the racket they've got going. You can't get a job without experience and the only experience you can get is going to be unpaid or underpaid labor doing the exact same job
Re:Genius judge (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Genius judge (Score:5, Insightful)
The "point" of hiring interns is to provide them with an educational experience. That's why you don't have to pay them - because they show up primarily for their own benefit and provide few, if any, benefits to the host organization. People who show and do valuable work for you are called "employees," and the thing about employees is that they have a legal right to be paid. Once upon a time, businesses understood this and hired seasonal workers (students on summer vacation) for a small salary. Nowadays every imbecile thinks that an "intern" is a source of free labor. Wrong.
If you want free labor and you're a for-profit business? Screw you. We have minimum wage laws for a reason. You are not allowed to make a profit off of someone's labor and not pay them. "Internship" is not a code word for "someone I can't be bothered to pay."
Re:Genius judge (Score:5, Interesting)
I hope you get modded up, as your comment gets to the core of the issue very nicely. I just wanted to expand on this:
Nowadays every imbecile thinks that an "intern" is a source of free labor.
Yeah, I run a very small software dev business, and on a couple of occasions I have hired interns for the summer. Of course, as I hope everybody here knows, in our industry interns get paid, and pretty well...
A couple of times, in conversations with friends outside the industry, when this subject came up, there was a total disconnect. They wondered how the heck somebody like me could find interns, and it turned out that their bafflement was because they assumed that by "intern" I meant "unpaid". I was so shocked by this ridiculous assumption that the first time I was literally speechless for a few seconds while I processed the concept: "this person thinks that there are young people who will develop software for a for-profit entity without being paid, wtf...". Then I slowly explained: "no, in this industry employers consider it customary to pay our employees..."
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It's customary to pay interns for business, in particular IT, finance, accounting, engineering, product development, etc. For blue collar work it may be more common for a student to be in an apprenticeship program. The school usually ends up getting paid, and the work done is graded and part of the program. Teaching is similar as well, but it's part of the grade used for the degree.
Yes, if you get course credit, then I think the Labor Dept and judges will pretty much accept that as proof of the educational value. It's generally up to the schools to set standards for these programs, and enforce them--including making the students aware of the standards and providing effective ways for them to report abuse. (Now there could abuse involving the school's collusion--free unskilled labor for the Dean's cousin or whatever, but that would be the rare exception, as opposed to the widespread ab
Prisons (Score:3)
Go to the Prison-Industrial Complex, pay them a low fee, and get your labor for next to nothing (or free).
This has been about the only growth industry in the US for decades.
This is very appealing to Red states as it gets them a good chunk of money both over and under the table whilst also satisfying their twisted Purtianical sadism fetishes. The fact that most of the sla^H^H^H workers are minorities is just gravy.
Very related: for-profit prison c
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2 off top of my head:
to promote interest in job fields
to pre-vet individuals who are interested in a job field
there are many paid internships. there are many more unpaid ones. unpaid ones are well known for being abused and doing nothing educational or related to the students curriculum, instead being simply a source of free labor.
Re:Genius judge (Score:4, Interesting)
If you have to pay interns like regular employees, what's the point of hiring interns?
.. ? if you "hired" interns, you would pay them.
using interns for just manual labor nothing to do with the subject they're studying is just.. well, it's sort of cheating them and not just sort of, it's downright fraud against the school institutions as well who count them as course credit - of course those institutions are to be blamed for the abuse of the system as well since if they require "internship" for graduation but have no qualifiers on the actual work then they're pretty much just participating in free manual labor work experience without pay program. it's stupid for everyone involved except for those who sell their services to someone and pocket the cash(half of worlds magazine adverts are photoshopped and laid out by free interns - but the company still bills the client for their time and that's just nasty).
if they got nothing for the interns to internship in they shouldn't be taking them in. but free labor and intern bitches yayyyy so they take them even if they have no intention of teaching them anything or putting them into any work in the field their internship is supposed to be in.
there's of course all sorts of other reasons for putting the hammer on it, because otherwise soon you'll mcd will no longer have any employees - just permanent interns who get paid 1/10th of the minimum wage as "expenses" for their work.
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hire - to engage the services of a person for a fee
to engage temporary use of for a fee
If you aren't paid you aren't hired by definition.
Internships while in theory are for the benefit of the intern to get real world experience, it really is just an avenue for a company to enjoy free labor.
Re:Genius judge (Score:5, Informative)
If you read the article you would have found out that the "interns" were actually unpaid workers. From the article: "The judge noted that these internships did not foster an educational environment and that the studio received the benefits of the work." The judge correctly ruled that Fox Searchlight Pictures did not followed the criteria laid out by the U.S. Department of Labor. (You didn't even have to read the article - it's in the summary too). The criteria linked above is a good read btw.
It's about damn time the government went after the abuse. It doesn't affect our interns since (1) they are paid a stipend and (2) it is actually educational and benefits them way more than us. We use interns to foster growth in research. The movie industry use interns for free labor.
Re:Genius judge (Score:5, Insightful)
I always assumed interns actually performed services in relation to what their field of study is. Fashion students do fashion work like costumes, makeup, jewelry making, etc. Journalism students check facts, review articles, report on local/low importance stories. Other students perform tasks actually related to their future job. And these tasks for all interns include some grunt work such as cleaning up the shop, checking supplies, pumping the bellows at the forge, whatever is needed.
But I don't think anyone goes to college to be coffee-handler or floor-sweeper. If that is the extant of their internship experience, they should be paid like the other employees. Or better, they should report that to their professor/school, and that company should be excluded from the internship choices. When their free labor pool disappears, they will stop abusing the process.
piracy and free labor (Score:3)
I recall you as one of the people who insists that copying is stealing. You vehemently denounce piracy, saying that artists deserve to be paid, and people who just make a copy without paying are cheating the artists. Pirates are not paying for the labor, the hard work artists put into the creation of their works, and are therefore allegedly making it impossible to earn a living from art.
But interns? If artists deserve compensation for labor, and not just once, but each time their work is used, surely i
Re: (Score:2)
Not at all.
I did 9 months of paid internships during college. It will just eliminate coffee fetching jobs which is a good thing for the interns.
Ripple effect (Score:5, Interesting)
Unpaid internships are a huge crutch perpetuating class divisions here in the US. I wonder what will change now that rich kids no longer have the advantage of being able to say "I'll work for free."
Internships are hard work! (Score:5, Insightful)
An internship should clearly be:
- For a well-defined project;
- For a limited time;
- Paid (at a basic level);
- As much work for the employer as it is for the intern.
If you're not mentoring your interns heavily, you stand no chance of developing a talent pipeline. I wrote about my experiences with an internship program here: http://www.altdevblogaday.com/2012/04/18/lessons-learned-from-training-interns/ [altdevblogaday.com]
The critical aspect is that you have to have the available bandwidth to mentor and supervise an intern. You have to give them clear goals and a clear chance to succeed.
Re: (Score:2, Interesting)
And who are you to decide that rather than the employer and the employee involved? You learn a lot just from being on a movie set, working in a hospital, or in a senator's office or in a science lab. These are experiences that are extremely hard to get and valuable and many people will gladly do them for free without any of your additional arbitrary conditions.
Re:Internships are hard work! (Score:5, Insightful)
By having them unpaid, you are essentially making those jobs only be accessible to people from wealthy families. Only people from wealthy families can afford to pay the bills while working for free. Everyone else has to find a paying job, which would then exclude them from being able to gain entry into those fields.
Re:Internships are hard work! (Score:5, Insightful)
And who are you to decide that rather than the employer and the employee involved? You learn a lot just from being on a movie set, working in a hospital, or in a senator's office or in a science lab. These are experiences that are extremely hard to get and valuable and many people will gladly do them for free without any of your additional arbitrary conditions.
Yes, and you're still allowed to "just be on a movie set", because "just being" isn't working. It's the working that's the problem, because there you are, in front of people making millions of dollars, and they're trying to save $10 an hour on a runner by getting you to do it instead...? That's pathetic, really....
Re: (Score:3)
yes. fetching someone's coffee or being an unpaid janitor is really "educational" and totally "valuable experience" for a film school intern.
Finally years later.... (Score:2)
it's not the judge... (Score:5, Informative)
Unpaid internships have always been very restricted according to labor laws. It has always been the case that many companies in the entertainment and publishing and fashion industries were breaking the law. What is new is simply that a few former interns got fed up enough with their treatment that they are ratting out their unethical non-employers ;-)
Internship system (Score:2)
I can't comment on specifics, as I've never done an internship, but my impression is that the theory is to get the intern a little bit of exposure to the field they are trying to get into, with the byproduct of some internships leading to legitimate jobs or networking with those they interned with. However, if the internships are being used as an excuse to use these interns as nothing but grunt workers for tasks completely unrelated to their field, it seems the exercise is a waste on any but a networking l
same thing with permatemps and misclassified contr (Score:2)
permatemps, contractors and so on are just other ways to get work for free / low cost and in the case of some contractors like fedex make them pay the costs of your business.
Need apprenticeships with real trainin in the IT / (Score:2)
Need apprenticeships with real training in the IT / field.
internships should be paid (Score:2)
I worked as an "intern" for 16 months for a telecom provider, and got what I considered to be a decent wage for it. (About 3/5 the starting wage for a fresh-out-of-school programmer at that company).
If someone wants to volunteer for a position on their own time, then that's okay--but that's not what I'd call an internship position, and the system shouldn't be set up to have people needing to volunteer full-time.
Re: (Score:3)
If someone wants to volunteer for a position on their own time, then that's okay--but that's not what I'd call an internship position, and the system shouldn't be set up to have people needing to volunteer full-time.
That's not OK, because then you have companies exploiting the constant stream of desperate unemployed people looking to get the experience that gets them their next job.
Leapfrog Technology Group abuses interns (Score:4, Insightful)
Leapfrog Technology Group abuses interns
Here is the job add with some added mark up
Fun points are up 3 months full time with no pay
and they have the balls to say "This means that if you don't believe there is any value to 12 weeks of unpaid on the job training, then this opportunity is not for you. We're looking for those individuals with long term aspirations in mind, not someone simply looking for a paycheck."
added mark up start with --
What is an Information Technology Internship?
An IT Internship is both an educational experience and a potential full time job after completion.
An IT Internship teaches students how to apply existing skills to real-world environments.
An IT Internship gives students the opportunity to learn new skills to better prepare for the competitive job market after graduation.
An IT Internship offers a variety of positions in at various types of organizations.
--point 4 is part of payed jobs
We offer internships to highly motivated individuals who want to enhance their IT exposure while working for a technology company focused on consulting and managed IT support. Our IT operations are located both in Chicago's Loop. We are currently seeking two interns to assist with our outsourced support program for our client located in the Chicagoland area.
Desired Experience
1 - 2 years --For a Work for free job?
Desired Education
High School or higher --OK
Desired Technical Skills
Windows 7, Internet Explorer, Outlook, Remote Access, Remote Desktop, Active Directory Administration, Basic Group Policy. --ok
Desired Soft Skills
Additional third party application skills and network infrastructure a plus. Ability to heavily multitask, excellent written and verbal skills, ability to understand business concepts and operations, independent worker, punctual, professional, asks detailed questions.
Must enhance skills on their own time when necessary at home or in office. --so not only is this work for free it's work off the clock at home as well?
Job Description and Career Opportunity
Throughout the course of each day, Leapfrog Technology Group delivers the absolute highest quality and most reliable technical support and network design\implementation services to small and medium organizations between 5 to 150 computers with one or more servers. Leapfrog is a Microsoft Gold Certified Partner in the Midwest Region, focusing on network infrastructure, advanced network infrastructure and managed services. Established in 2002, the company employs a small group of highly capable senior engineers focused on providing IT strategy and ongoing operational support.
We are currently seeking candidates through our Campus Relations Program for our Information Technology Development Program. This program provides challenging assignments and exceptional growth opportunities. In your role as a Help Desk Analyst, you will expand your skill set by providing prompt and effective support for our clients technical needs. Additionally, Leapfrog has a web design division, provides hardware\software sales, provides project management services, and in this role, additional non technical skills will be developed. This internship requires heavy multitasking, use of technology software to ease the burden on the support specialist, and is extremely challenging. Even for seasoned IT professionals, a role as an IT consultant is a very challenging one. We believe that this will be a position in which the staff is held to the highest standards and will be held accountable to use Leapfrog's proven methodologies.
Must have the following qualities:
Business savvy: You are smart and you understand the business implications of your ideas. You are successful in translating classroom training into workplace solutions.
Results focused: You always give it your best but you're not satisfied until you've acco
Why unpaid in the first place? (Score:3)
unpaid interns are not free (Score:3)
Re:unpaid interns are not free (Score:5, Insightful)
I hear similar complaints from businesses all the time: "Employees cost me X amount of money every year!"
In fact, I hear it so often, I've taken to asking them, "Then why do you have any, if all they ever do is cost you money?"
Never have gotten a straight answer...
RTFS (Score:5, Informative)
From TFS:
Pauley ruled, in accordance with criteria laid out by the U.S. Department of Labor, that unpaid internships should be educational in nature and specifically structured to the benefit of the intern, and reasoned that if interns are going to do grunt work like regular employees, then they should be paid like regular employees."
All this judge did was rule in accordance to existing law - that interns are there to be taught the tricks of the trade, not be your goddamn coffee mule, and if you're going to utilize them as such, they must be paid for their efforts (and rightfully so).
For fuck's sake, guys, learn to read at least the damn summary before you go off on a nonsensical tangent; perhaps you'll learn to think better of it.
Re:There goes the industry... (Score:4, Insightful)
If interns have to get paid, there goes Hollywood, Print, and Radio media industries... Interns pretty much do everything these days.
How about laying off some lazy fat management types to free up some money?
Re:There goes the industry... (Score:5, Insightful)
If those industries cannot survive without a large pool of free labor, then they should go the way of the dodo.
Re: (Score:3)
Boohoo. Companies can't exploit as many people anymore! The horror!
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Working there of their own free will, so that they can gain experience, so that they can get a leg up when it comes time for applying for an Entry-level / Junior job, which they will not get, since it's more cost-effective to use free interns than what is now an 'expensive' employee.
See, a typical company has numerous regular employees, and takes on a handful of interns during the summer / other times. These positions used to be paid; they weren't paid well, compared to when the person actually graduated, b
Re: (Score:3)
All this means is that there will be fewer internships, thus fewer opportunities for unskilled students (or otherwise) to gain experience. Keep in mind that these students are working of their own free will.
There will be fewer internships, because the crappy worthless ones will be axed. There will not be fewer opportunities for students to gain experience, because the genuine internships — the ones that are not-for-business-gain and the ones that are for business gain, but paid — will continue. So there will be just as much experience gained, although there will be fewer internships on CVs. Which will not only stop the exploitation, but it will make having an internship on your CV more attractiv
Re: (Score:2, Funny)
This just in: corporate whore roman_mir is butthurt over ruling that doesn't kiss the ass of Corporate America.
Film at 11.
Re:bye bye interns (Score:5, Insightful)
Minimum wage is so low that any company who wants to grow their own talent can pay it painlessly.
The skilled trades, unlike various Elitist Fuck Corporations, pay their apprentices because otherwise said apprentices wouldn't be able to have food, clothing and shelter.Internships/apprenticeships are increasing as they are the (proven over CENTURIES) way to grow skilled tradespeople.
Comment removed (Score:4, Informative)
Re: (Score:2)
"Fine. Here's $5000. Now remove from your resume that you interned on Black Swan ."
you know what sounds better than interned? that they worked on the black swan. beats interning any day of the week.
but the real point is that they'll have to start thinking about their internship policies and practices..
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
You used to be free to die in the gutter. You used to be free to breathe asbestos on the job. You used to be free to be raped by the sweat shop owner.
These regulations exist for good reason. I am offering a free one way trip to Somalia so you can check out the alternative. As part of my education for slashdot libertarians program I do require a refund if you ever leave Somalia.
Re:very stupid judge (Score:5, Insightful)
the one and only purpose of interning is to have the opportunity to shine. It's difficult to get hired as an employee -- there's a lot to prove and a lot of competition. It's way easier as an intern. And it's the foot in the door. You do have the opportunity to do really well, get noticed, and eventually get hired. And all you need to do is to work for free until that happens. That's pretty swell.
That's the lie they tell you, but don't believe it. They're really just using you. Statistically, in the fields that abuse unpaid internships, those with internships on their resumes get hired after graduation at a rate about 2% higher than those without.
Re: (Score:3)
I agreed to it going in. that's no illegal.
Yes, it is. If you did actual work, it was an evasion of the minimum wage laws.
for the company to give me a four month interview is not immoral.
It stopped being an interview when you started doing useful work.
For me to take advantage of it, and wind up competing with six other interns is not illegal. For me to get the job offer when others did not is not immoral.
I agree.
They didn't refuse to pay me. They promissed that they wouldn't pay me.
Utter and complete bullshit. If you had refused their kind promise not to pay you, then they would have paid you? No? Well then, you should be literally embarrassed to have even written a comment so stupid.
What's your problem here? Someone who didn't expect to get paid, and could leave at any time if they didn't like the work, stuck around and didn't get paid. They never needed to do the work. They could have walked out the door at any time. They literally had nothing to lose.
Good for you. My problem is with the immorality and illegality of a company refusing to pay its entry-level workers. And even more so in industries where
Re: (Score:3)
But they have a simple solution: they can just walk away from their unpaid internship without losing anything.
Often, an internship is associated with college credit for which the student has paid tuition. Quitting an internship would be like dropping a class and, after some point in the semester, there's no refund for that tuition.