Islamists In Bangladesh Demand Murder of More Bloggers 389
An anonymous reader writes "Days after the killing of leftist blogger Thaba Baba, mosques throughout Bangladesh called for a popular uprising to demand the killing of other bloggers who had held a rally calling for the death of Jama'at-e-Islami leaders convicted of war crimes. This happens in an atmosphere of ongoing tension between Left and Right, with the leftist government threatening to outlaw rightist parties while the right uses violence to quiet selected enemies."
Before making excuses, please remember... (Score:5, Interesting)
Unfortunately for this "distinction" to have much meaning, you need to have the alleged "average" people and clerics of Islam start denouncing the actions of these "loud attention seekers" more strongly than a token, "it wasn't us."
Do a large number of these "average" people of Islam show up at the places where these "attention seekers" go, to make a shield between them and their targets, like a lot of people (both Christian and non-Christian) do at Westboro "events"?
Re:Killing leftists prevents more killings. (Score:1, Interesting)
Killing anyone for their ideological or political positions often results in retaliatory violence.
Calling for the killing of extremists for war crimes wouldn't go unnoticed or unpunished. If these individuals are willing to kill the masses surely one more won't be too much of a burden. It's not surprising that calling for the execution of anyone of any party - especially if they are in postions of power - resulted in this "preemptive" death.
Killing people for their words isn't right, but it's been going on since the beginning of humanity and will continue for the simple reason that silencing your critics is an effective way of preventing others from doing the same.
Re:Before commenting, please remember... (Score:2, Interesting)
This makes no more sense than concluding something from the fact virtually all serial-killers are male. "Creationists and extremists" is a nonsense collection, but leaving that aside, the views of Westboro Baptist represent less than
Re:Before commenting, please remember... (Score:5, Interesting)
I fear that it needs more than that. Actually it was Luther who stood first against Pope and dogmas. However, at that time Church was already over it's fever to kill everyone who disagreed. Let's remember, it took centuries for them to get there. They thought that excluding from Church was enough.
When I look to Middle East Islam, I fear they will have huge problems to get over that phase. Everyone who disagrees are sooner or later silenced. Some would say that economical development is only answer, but I fear that it won't be enough.
Re:Before commenting, please remember... (Score:4, Interesting)
My barely informed theory: Muslims who want to kill Christians and others are being faithful to a straight-forward reading of the Quran, and Muslims who just want us all to get along are using twisted interpretations of the Quran to accomodate their view.
But I'm certainly not an expert. Any who is want to comment?
Re:Before commenting, please remember... (Score:2, Interesting)
Just let them splash in their own puddle of mud. Encircle the Islamic world tightly so there are no spillovers and no threat to western society and let them solve their own problems. One day they will realise their foolish ways and progress into a better age. For now, a good start would be NOT funding their wars and their revolutions - this is a double edged sword with its sharper edge turned towards us. We quickly need to abandon oil and move to other, not necessarily cleaner fuels. The environmental impact won't be felt for the next 200 years, but the political impact is already upon us.
Re:Before commenting, please remember... (Score:5, Interesting)
And that issue is exactly what makes this so outrageous. If my brother was spouting off, embarrassing the family, I'd punch him in the face and tell him to shut up. Yet, this global "brotherhood" you speak of remains, at best, absolutely silent whenever a small percentage of "their people" launch some rancid extremest call for the murder of innocents. At worst, they join the protests.
Only if you edit both books. (Score:1, Interesting)
By the book, Muslims are commanded to live with each other and respect the lives of others.
By the book, Christians are commanded to stone to death anyone who disobeys the sabbath, does not believe in (their) god, breaks commandments, etc.
All you have to do is read the bits you want and ignore the bits that say different.
Re:Before commenting, please remember... (Score:5, Interesting)
As an secular/cultural Muslim, this is one of the biggest points.
This is such an important point.
It is hard to describe to people what Islam is. It is not just belief in God or attending church once in a week.
I grew up overseas, went to Islam school, not an extreme one by any stretch of the imagination, so I do consider myself quite learned.
Islam is composed of the Koran which is relatively vague and you can read it to mean a lot of things and you can apply a lot of context to things.
But the Koran is not the core of Islamic practice. That is the hadith... which basically stems from the belief that Mohamed was a great man... therefore we should do as Mohamed did to have the best Islamic practice.
So I was literally taught to enter the washroom with the left food, to sleep on my right side, not to stand up and pee... That is the level of detail we have in the Hadith on the life of Mohamed and what it is that Muslims are taught to do. This is standard Sunni/Shia Islam.
So you can of course imagine the problems with this... a detailed log of a man who lived 1400 years ago being held up as the final perfections of mankind. The logs orally recorded and then written down over centuries across wars/assassins/politics... You don't need a PHd to figure this out.
And so there are many 'bad' hadiths out there. ...
Stoning single mothers for sex out of wedlock... check.
Going to war, capturing the women and making them sex slaves... check.
Going to war to spead Islam... check.
Killing those who speak against Islam... check.
Yes, most people of all faiths have done similar things in their own religion. The difference in Islam is that this is taken as THE FINAL PERFECT WAY TO LIVE with the hadith to show you how to live.
And this is taken seriously by Muslims. As you say, the old testament has lots of 'bad things', but no one takes it seriously and much of Christian thinking today would suggest that many parts have been superceeded by the new testament... which is relatively good... and the portrayal of Jesus himself as a model is a relatively good one.
Now what most Muslims have resorted to is ignoring the bad parts of Islam and simply saying they are out of context... Sure its an intellectual cop out.
It is the same text (the hadith) that tells you to pray five time a day as the one that tells you to go to war and capture slave women. Yes most modern Muslims will ignore the war and slave part.
But in the end, it is for the good. I can't handle the silliness of it all, so I don't follow the religion. But I'd rather have this kind of peaceful ignorance than 'real Islam'.
Re:Killing leftists prevents more killings. (Score:3, Interesting)
ONe of the odd things I've run into with Muslim coworkers, and I'm posting this AC because I don't feel like getting flamed, is that they are very calm and peaceful.
But when you start discussing religion, they'll make crazy ass statements "oh, yes, if you renounce Islam, you should be beheaded" in a very calm and peaceful way, with no anger in their voice. Like saying the sky is blue. Because to them, it is logical and perfectly OK. You never saw Osama Bin Laden shouting, did you, but he LOVED to kill.
Crazy violent Christians usually run around looking all crazy and violent. same as crazy violent Atheists.
But some Muslims: it's like a weird internal secret.
Re:Killing leftists prevents more killings. (Score:4, Interesting)
>>But then we get to this:
>>[To me things are clear, this religion will never stop until either the last muslim is dead or the whole world is muslim]
>>This is the most ignorant and, frankly, stupid thing I've ever seen modded to +5, and I've been here a while.
>>I've got a muslim friend who is quite peaceful and tolerant. Did you mean "every last muslim (except for DahGhostfacedFiddlah's friend) is dead"?.
It is valid to tackle me on the "all of them"-bit because it is logical. You know a muslim who is apparently not violent at all. And that is good news isn't it? All swans are white, one black etcetera. But as far as everyone knows, one example is a bit flimsy as far as evidence goes. Have you seen the riots (stoning of people, petrol-bombing and RPG-ing embassies) for a... wait for it... cartoon... Thousands of hatebeards all being very violent to prove that they are not a violent group. How is that for ironic? These are not extremist nut-cases (not all of them), most of them are 'normal civilians'. There was a shopkeeper in Pakistan who refused to participate in such a protest, and he got killed by the mob. Because he 'left his faith' apparently, that is a normal thing for muslims.
>> Except that there are entire sects [wikipedia.org] of muslims who are dedicated to peace (pay particular attention to their view of "Jihad"). Perhaps you really
>> meant "every last muslim (except for DahGhostfacedFiddlah's friend and members of some sects) is dead"?
Yes, lets get to the word Jihad. There are two sorts, the violent one, and the not-violent one. The latter, fine no problem there. The violent one on the other hand is used ever since the beginning of islam. It made them into the great rulers of large parts of Asia, the Balkans, north Africa, just like Atilla the Hun put violence down as a concept. This continues to this day. Do not forget that! Remember Timbuktu?
The mentioning of a 'large silent and harmless group that is not visible' is the same tactic politicians use to scare their adversaries. As long as you do not know what they say in private, in the mosque, or elsewhere outside the reach of researchers you simply can not tell how many actually (dis)approve on terrorism and jihadism (the violent one). Nor can I for that matter.
The problem with research in this field is that muslims are allowed to lie through their teeth to non-muslims whenever the truth might hurt them. I forgot the name for this, but probably you will find it if you like.
>> But to ignore the billion or so muslims who aren't actively trying to kill us and lumping them in with the - what - 1000 or so that actually carried out the attacks you listed?
Try looking up the term Takfiri. This means in practical terms that one can radicalise out of controll, and no one can do anything because they fear to be made-out for non-believer which is enough to kill you on the spot. That is what happened to Pakistani shopkeeper I mentioned earlier. It is a bit the same like the previous point, you never know how many of those hatebeards are actually meaning what they shout, and vice versa.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Takfiri
Nevertheless they know that the power of the many is more strong than the few radicals after the diverse arab-springs we have seen. Yet, no one is holding the idiots back. NO ONE. They all march after the big kettle drum. And when the attack on innocent people is successful, not one cleric would rise up and be true to the love/respect/peace bit that they always try to sell. No actually, they get on the streets in hordes shouting and clapping and dancing. So that is why I lump them all up. I had it.
That's possibly the dumbest thing I've ever seen.
That I agree on! That is the dumbest thing ever. And curiously, it is not MY invention, but theirs...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divisions_of_the_w
Re:Killing leftists prevents more killings. (Score:5, Interesting)
Islam is about where Christianity was 500-800 years ago. That is, becoming a major world power and fighting to gain more power, becoming involved in economic and political wars in the name of the religion, and having wars between sects. What if back then the rest of the world had said "we'll never have peace until every last Christian is dead"?
The violent islamists are in the minority of all muslims. Muslims are speaking out against this (despite some people claiming it never happens). If we have modern day atrocities in the last 50-100 years done by Christians against non-Christian minorities, do we blame all Christians for this?
Re:Killing leftists prevents more killings. (Score:4, Interesting)
The problem with apologists for Islamist totalitarians is that they never look at the actual numbers. Go check the opinion surveys PEW research has done in Islamic countries. As an example, in Pakistan you get 80% approval for execution for apostates, adulterers, and blasphemers.
It is not a "fallacy" to point out that theocratic totalitarianism has widespread support in Islamic countries.