Ask Slashdot: Facebook, Twitter For Business, Is It Worth the Privacy Trade-Off? 158
cayenne8 writes "I've been a staunch advocate of NOT joining Facebook or Twitter or the other social networks to protect my privacy and to not voluntarily give all my personal information away to corporate America, or even the Government. However, I'm beginning to look into making money through various means on the side, one of them being photography/videography. With these mediums, being seen is critically important. Having a business facing site on Facebook/Google+ and even using Twitter can be great for self promotion, and can open up your business to a huge audience. If you were to open your FB and other social network accounts with business ONLY information, and keep your personal information (name, image, etc) off the Facebook account...will this keep your personal privacy still from them, or are their algorithms good enough to piece together who you are from the business only sites? Is the payoff worth the potential trade-off for generating potential customers for your business and guiding them to your primary website?"
Cookies and referers (Score:5, Interesting)
See all those sites you visit with a facebook like button. Those images are usually served from facebook, not the site you're visiting.
So, unless you're careful with your privacy settings, you are likely reporting a huge amount of your browsing to facebook.
At the very least, I'd recommend logging out of facebook when you're done and trying to browse with 3rd party cookies disabled.
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See all those sites you visit with a facebook like button. Those images are usually served from facebook, not the site you're visiting.
If facebook ever goes down for an extended period of time, it would probably halt half the internet (which may be a good thing).
I remember it used to be the case that you had to want 10-20 seconds for adserve....facebook.com to timeout before blockbuster.com would respond at all.
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Re:Cookies and referers (Score:5, Funny)
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Segregated logins (Score:3)
Personally I had (past tense) a fb account but I haven't used it for many years.
But my business does have a fb presence - it has its own fb account and in the office a cpu is dedicated for that fb account.
Nothing important is on that dedicated cpu - so all the info fb can obtain from that dedicated machine is the ip (static) and the hw/sw info.
Re:Segregated logins (Score:4, Funny)
That dedicated PC idea is fantastic!! I'll definitely use that one!
Re:Cookies and referers (Score:5, Insightful)
My mind gets blown by sites that demand you authenticate from FB in order to use functions like posting, seeing pictures, and other stuff.
Call me crazy, but basic security 101 just says that you don't trust another site with the keys to your kingdom... especially with zero assurance that it might even work.
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Ah but you potentially gain 600 million auto logged in users, no barrier, one click access.
Decisions decisions.
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The web site owner's pov is not always the same as the web site user's pov. So not too hard a decision for a webmaster to use Facebook or Google for login, especially if those sites make it easy to use.
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Exactly. I have to admit I haven't looked into it, but I'm really worried about the security implications. Many sites offer logging in by Open Id, Yahoo, Facebook, Google, and some more. On top of their own account. I'll always register a new account (usually easy enough) if I really want - too worried about such sites snooping my passwords. Plus of course the fact that Facebook has more than enough info about me already, no need to provide them even more.
Now I wouldn't call my Facebook account my kingdom -
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I'll always register a new account (usually easy enough) if I really want - too worried about such sites snooping my passwords.
When you use a federated single-sign-on capability like this, your password is NEVER sent to the service provider (the one you're logging in to using you Yahoo/Facebook/Google/etc account). It is only sent to the authenticating service (the identity provider), who already has it, and then that provider generates a signed message in a specific format (OpenID, SAML, etc) that vouches for your identity to the other site. In this model, your password is actually exposed LESS than if you create an account at the
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My passwords are randomly generated and stored in LastPass - which appears to be rather trustworthy in that.
For the "login with Facebook": how to tell that really validates towards Facebook, and is not yet another fishing operation?
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When you use a federated single-sign-on capability like this, your password is NEVER sent to the service provider (the one you're logging in to using you Yahoo/Facebook/Google/etc account). It is only sent to the authenticating service (the identity provider), who already has it, and then that provider generates a signed message in a specific format (OpenID, SAML, etc) that vouches for your identity to the other site. In this model, your password is actually exposed LESS than if you create an account at the site in question.
How can you know that at any random 3rd party website? Sure that is ideally how it works, but theres nothing to stop someone to add a 'log in with facebook button' and capture your entries. Do we want to teach random users to simply trust anything with a facebook logo on it and forget about the age old advice of having separate passwords for everywhere you go?
They link you over to the destination identity provider. The safest way is to login directly to Facebook and then login with your FB credentials to the other site -- you're already logged in and Facebook will just ask you for permission to pass the authentication along. Same thing happens with Microsoft accounts and Google accounts (the other two big ones).
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basic security 101 just says that you don't trust another site with the keys to your kingdom... especially with zero assurance that it might even work.
If the other site can handle proper authentication of the user, secure storage of credentials using a suitable hash algorithm and a good amount of salt, and generally follows all of the best practices associated with these functions, and can provided federated single-sign-on using a mature, tested, and generally accepted protocol like OpenID or OAuth, then you absolutely says that you can trust another site to provide your authentication function for you. Well, maybe you can, depending on your business mode
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Hosts file? Where can I find an expert to outline the benefits of that method?
Noooooooooooooooooooooooo....ooooo...!! Oh, the humanity!
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Re:Cookies and referers (Score:4, Informative)
I was replying on the presumption that you have no way to avoid a FB account in the line of work you want to pursue and that you'd like to protect your privacy as much as possible.
Assuming that's the case, I'd make sure I was logged out of the account. Others have suggested there might be plugins that can help by blocking these links from third party websites, and I think that too would be worth your exploring.
Social networks can only build a picture of you based upon what you give them. The trouble is that it's very very easy to not even realize you're giving them vast quantities of personal information as you browse third party websites.
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My own experiments show that the facebook cookie is transferred by the site to Facebook even if you have logged out. The only way to ensure that facebook doesn't follow you around is to delete its cookies before going anywhere else.
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Could one simply use one browser for Facebook-only (e.g. Safari) and a different browser for everything else? Would that prevent Facebook tracking?
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Could one simply use one browser for Facebook-only (e.g. Safari) and a different browser for everything else? Would that prevent Facebook tracking?
Yes - that's what I do. Mind you, I wouldn't put it past the bastards to find a way around that one day. Eternal vigilance is needed, if you're really paranoid about it.
Ghostery (Score:5, Informative)
Ghostery blocks them
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just block that single one, it will work :
*facebook.com*
Re: Cookies and referers (Score:1)
Use a separate browser for FB, et al, and don't do any other web surfing in that browser.
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One Word:
requestpolicy [requestpolicy.com]requestpolicy
Vanilla (Score:1)
You still "get reported", in the form of your IP address and browser identity, even if you're logged out.
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Adblock + EasyPrivacy
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Don't forget Google as well - besides all the AdSense and DoubleClick and other ad companies Google owns, don't forget all those
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Facebook doesn't sell user info.
I thought they did, but only indirectly.
You can't buy the names and addresses of people from them, but you can request an ad be shown to gay males between 20 and 25 living in the Houston area, then it's up to you to track the IP addresses from your Facebook campaign, and gather the IPs from those people. You can now track them all you like by IP, place cookies (even malicious ones, if you don't mind getting banned from advertising again).
Yes, and use a one-time-only address (Score:5, Informative)
Having a social media presence is pretty crucial to doing the sort of freelance work you're describing, since so much of how you get business happens via word of mouth (and so much of "word of mouth" happens on social media).
One of the simplest things you can do to protect your privacy is to create an email addres that you *only* use for social media accounts (like, a special gmail address that just forwards mail to your regular adress, or maybe facebook@yourdomain.com if you own your own domain). This rather horrifying article [wsj.com] from the WSJ about the way that social media tracking work makes clear that your email address is a big part of how your identity is tracked online. If they can't match the email address you use for your Facebook login with any other aspects of your online identity, you have some protections.
If you're using them strictly as a business tool, I wouldn't worry too much about photos -- I do think it's helpful to have a photo of yourself, especially in a one-to-one business like freelance photography. You can set your Facebook account so other people can't tag you in their photos.
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If you're using them strictly as a business tool, I wouldn't worry too much about photos -- I do think it's helpful to have a photo of yourself, especially in a one-to-one business like freelance photography. You can set your Facebook account so other people can't tag you in their photos.
Agreed... people are more likely to choose your business when they can connect the business with a face.
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Well, actually, a lot of the photographers that are donig well, on some webinars on CreativeLive...have been saying they found that posting TOO many pics on the FB account was detrimental.
They mentioned to have your branding/logo stuff there, and a few of the high quality images, some of clients you've shot, but that the main thing you wanted to do with it, was to use the FB account to drive traffic to
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For freelance yes social media is or can be a huge part of your networking, but for more established companies, this can often be just a big waste of energy and capital and time. There are lots of studies and anecdotes all over the place signing praise and scorn about social media for business, but if you look for numbers, the real hard numbers behind conversions and ROI for social media campaigns, they're either hard to find or embarrassingly bad.
For example there was a widely publicized "case study" that
Re:online name (Score:4, Insightful)
I'm ok posting real info, and I don't get the paranoia. What could possibly go wrong?
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Ever post something controversial on Usenet? Google Groups search will make sure that if you were flamed or ridiculed for it, that it is on the first page of search results.
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There is no way to predict if something bad will happen to you, specifically, based on online posts.
Sure there is. If you are stupid, then bad things are more likely to happen. This guy advertised he was a rich gringo headed to a specific place. People looking for that profile took advantage of it. He also advertised that he doesn't lock his front door. Nobody took advantage of that. When you are stupid enough long enough, someone will take advantage of it. Use the tiniest amount of sense when posting and there shouldn't be a problem.
I'm a reformed poster. I used to post all my detailed travels daily while I was out of town, including photos. I was stupid. I picked up a stalker from this. She ended up being fired from her job over her lack of self control. I hated going to work for about 6 months while I was being sexually harrassed and followed.
You can't protect yourself from other's mental illnesses. Sure,
They are that good (Score:2, Informative)
Their little data bots are good enough that they already have information on you whether you have an account or not. You and your browser are traceable if you visit any websites with their widgets, whether you are signed in or not. Just bite the bullet and set up a business account already and stop worrying. You aren't that special.
Having a Facebook has certainly helped my business' promotion, it gets a lot more eyes visit our websites.
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Well, my browsers have Ghostery, no script and adblock on them, I honestly don't usually notice seeing any FB links or 'likes' on most websites I visit...
No (Score:2)
And what kind of unprofessional questions is that anyways?
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As unprofessional as your answer. You obviously don't run your own business.
Part of running your business is getting your name out - and depending on your business that includes plastering it all over the Internet, listing yourself on as many trade related sites as possible, providing a forum for potential customers to contact you, etc. The more you become known, the better it is.
What are the other options? (Score:3)
Really, for better or worse "social" media is the best way to reach a target audience.
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There are TONS of other ways to promote yourself and find business (after you've setup a website showing samples of your work):
- Respond to ads on free sites like craigslist*
- Network, network, network online or IRL: participate in specialized forums, volunteer for community events, tell friends who tell their friends, etc.
- Donate your services to "silent auctions" in your community.
I got my freelance work started solely from the above, never posted an ad anywhere. It only takes one or two initial clients
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of course not (Score:4, Funny)
...unless you're clever, like Ronald McDonald or Colonel Sanders, the real identities of which are still mysteries.
Re:of course not (Score:4, Informative)
Really.
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Wow!! Colonel Sanders lived to 90 eating that crappy chicken?!?
No; he lived to 90 by *selling* that crappy chicken to others to eat.
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Wake up, sheeple!
For ten thousand years have we slumbered whilst you have grown weak and complacent. Now we have returned to lead your people to oblivion like lambs to the slaughter.
Any studies that show (Score:4, Interesting)
>>>Having a business facing site on Facebook/Google+ and even using Twitter can be great for self promotion, and can open up your business to a huge audience
actually increases sales?
Re:Any studies that show (Score:4, Interesting)
>>>Having a business facing site on Facebook/Google+ and even using Twitter can be great for self promotion, and can open up your business to a huge audience
actually increases sales?
That's a really good question.
I've run a photography website [imagicity.com] for 9 years, promoting Vanuatu, a tiny but beautiful chain of islands in the South Pacific. Traffic has always been low but steady, and Google image search gives me a decent ranking for my decidedly niche category.
In August, I got recruited to manage the Humans of Vanuatu [facebook.com] Facebook page. The page is still tiny by global standards, but I get people visiting from around the world, a ton of positive feedback and a steadily increasing and solid fan base. I've been featured in an online culture magazine, and now have a regular series in a decent (4 color glossy) lifestyle magazine that focuses on the South Pacific. Three musicians have asked to use my work in their cover art, the local newspaper has offered me a regular feature and I've been solicited to shoot more weddings than I want to[*].
In terms of actual revenue, the jury's still out. I have seen an uptick in website visits, but the vast majority of people prefer to wait for my daily posts. I haven't tried to leverage it much yet, but I've been asked to do an exhibition early next year, with the proceeds going to charity. If that goes well, then maybe I'll try selling prints or a book online.
Best I can suggest at the moment is that a Facebook presence emphatically does increase your exposure, mostly because of what they call 'virality' - the fact that whenever someone Likes a photo of mine, all their friends see it too. This means that I get about ten times as many eyes as I have fans. Will this translate to money? Not sure yet. Why not Like my page [facebook.com] and follow me to find out? 8^)
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[*] In fairness, I just loathe shooting weddings. So one would be too many.
Privacy is an illusion (Score:2)
They already have or can gain easy access to all that information. The govt already has a ton of info on you, tax records, dmv, etc. Business do also (you prolly get junk mail every day addressed to you.) It's a fact of life, it sucks, but thinking you can erase or hide your digital or paper trail is foolish. If you want to protect privacy spend your time fighting to protect it, don't waste it trying to hide.
Re:Privacy is an illusion (Score:5, Interesting)
Well, actually....after Katrina, I fell off a LOT of lists, and over the years, I've been pretty careful to not put my personal name out there again. I get very little junk snail mail. Over the past year, I've gotten a few. But moving around so much after the storm, addresses changed often, and I was lax in catching up most anything to those.
Heck, even now, my car registration says out Parish, my drivers license say another one and another address, from the parish I currently live in right now.
Registering for voting was a fun exercise, let me assure you that.
No, I'm not invisible by any stretch of the imagination, but I also don't go out of my way to give information out to companies out there, I actually go out of my way to give disinfromaton whenever I can. Customer store cards, in some I'm a 98 yr old Hispanic lady name Sven, whose shopping habits HAVE to skew their system a bit, and most any time I fill out anything that isn't legal, I fudge the years and dates around, give out wrong or partially wrong names, etc. Anything that goes into a non-legal database usually has misguided information about me, but often to the correct address.
It is funny to see some junk mail that arrives here that comes from the fscked up data I give them.
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I salute you, noise is most likely the best way to protect yourself. I do the same from time to time also. My main point is the effective use of time, if you can easily be invisible by all means be invisible and I sincerely hope you can stay that way. But once the helicopter spot light is on you, it might not be worth the effort to get back into the shadows. But that is for each of us to decided.
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So let me get this straight (Score:5, Insightful)
You want to start working freelance and you don't want to publicize how people can reach you? I'd expect a decent head shot, a phone number, a short bio and an email address. Also representative galleries of past work, as well.
You don't have to put your life story out there, but it's really not uncommon in business to have some small amount of "About Me" information posted with experience, education, sometimes martial status/number of children (especially if you are looking to photograph families/children).
If you are going to set up a social media presence, you can't just set up a page and have it sit there. It does require tending and maintenance or it looks abandoned. If you do photography, post examples of good work at a steady pace, even if it's not paying gigs. Hopefully people forward it around and you get some notice.
It sounds like you need to loosen up, or find another way of making money on the side that doesn't require social media. You can be a successful freelander without it, but you will still need to get your name out there somehow (personal networking, business networking groups, etc)
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You want to start working freelance and you don't want to publicize how people can reach you? I'd expect a decent head shot, a phone number, a short bio and an email address.
Pretty much this.
If you were to open your FB and other social network accounts with business ONLY information, and keep your personal information (name, image, etc) off the Facebook account...will this keep your personal privacy still from them
This is silly, and I don't mean in the Internet era, but in any era. Go back to ye old pre-Internet days. Would you expect to be able to place an ad in a newspaper but refuse to give them your name, phone number, address and credit card information?
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martial status
I'm a corporal and I know ninjutsu.
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I Am Not A Lawyer (and if I were I would not tell you this for free). I none the less strongly recommend AGAINST posting samples of your work to Facebook. Unless you actually understand that you are granting them a non-exclusive, transferable, sub-licensable, royalty-free, worldwide license to use any IP content that you post on or in connection with Facebook [facebook.com] and understand what that implies for your business and your clients.
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Many photographer friends I have watermark the photos they post to their Facebook accounts with their contact information. So if Facebook did indeed re-use their posted, watermarked photo, it becomes free advertising for them.
I'd file this under "the cost of doing business". Especially if you are a photographer. No one cares (and wants to pay you) until they see your work.
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Amen to that! I'm just questioning whether Facebook is a smart way to get your work seen. Setting up your own domain is approximately as easy as falling off a log (but it does have a nominal cost). Setting up your own online gallery is not hard either.
Twitter: yes. Facebook: No. (Score:5, Insightful)
I think Twitter is worth it because there are very few privacy concerns. Twitter is 98% public, and everyone who participates knows it. (I hope.)
Facebook is a privacy nightmare, and is crap for driving business to your web site. It does everything it can to keep all information on Facebook, including jerking everyone around. And that will only increase.
Once you post something on either service it's out of y our control. With Twitter it's pretty minor, 140 characters, and it will be gone eventually. (I believe they only archive the last 2000 Tweets or so.) Facebook is trying to make a timeline of people's entire lives and won't stop trying to make money off your content until well after you're dead.
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Try these (Score:2)
linkedin
elance
Ignored (Score:2)
Better use For Your Time? (Score:2)
Beyond that, all that you can do with Facebook is try to get people to "like" you (aka subscribe). E-mail does that better - Constant Contact seems good. All that you're really doing is building a list of people who already
Opposites (Score:2)
FWIW, the "Facebook for Business Pages" stuff is kind of gimped - you can't "Like" other pages and you are limited in other ways. I ended up making up an EMail address and a fake name in order to "Like" other pages (for the free music giveaways), but now Facebook seems to recognize that account on every page I vis
Welcome to iinterwebs loser! (Score:1)
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Ok, for starters: (Score:2)
2. The gubmint has access to the same databases.
3. Deep privacy is no longer possible if you have ever gone into debt, rented an apartment, or done any number of things that involve Large Systems.
4. Shallow privacy can be kept by avoiding Social Networks. But it is fungible and variable.
5.
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5. Photography and Videography as a profession are pretty well toast. When a fucking phone takes better video than a $100,000 camera did 30 years ago, the Gig Is Up. Content creation is trivial and a short ride to the poor house, unless you move to LA and suck enough dick to get into the film industry.
Content creation is trivial; good content creation just as hard as it was 50 years ago.
6. If you will notice most of the most famous and popular photographs of the past year were taken by amateurs on crap gear.
Many of which are lucky shots. And with a million amateur shots to every professional shot, the amateurs do have an advantage to get lucky and catch that unique moment just because they happen to be there.
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5. Photography and Videography as a profession are pretty well toast. When a fucking phone takes better video than a $100,000 camera did 30 years ago, the Gig Is Up. Content creation is trivial and a short ride to the poor house, unless you move to LA and suck enough dick to get into the film industry.
Content creation is trivial; good content creation just as hard as it was 50 years ago.
6. If you will notice most of the most famous and popular photographs of the past year were taken by amateurs on crap gear.
Many of which are lucky shots. And with a million amateur shots to every professional shot, the amateurs do have an advantage to get lucky and catch that unique moment just because they happen to be there.
Further, an actual professional photographer is worth every penny. The horrors and nightmares some people have gone through as a result of hiring their friend or relative to "photograph" their big event which was as good as not hiring anyone at all (Oh Jenny is soooo good with a camera, and you don't have to spend $3,000!). Only stupid people think that photography is something that anyone with a megapixel can do.
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5. Photography and Videography as a profession are pretty well toast. When a fucking phone takes better video than a $100,000 camera did 30 years ago, the Gig Is Up. Content creation is trivial and a short ride to the poor house, unless you move to LA and suck enough dick to get into the film industry.
As a photographer with lots of photographer and videographer friends, I'd have to say, "hardly". A phone might take video as good as a $100k camera from 30 years ago, but nobody wants 30 year old quality in the same market these days. Everybody might have a camera, even a DSRL camera similar to what pros have, but content creation still goes to the talented. There is still a market to get good photos and good video done in a professional manner as there always has been. Even more because there is more need
You are under an illusion (Score:2)
that you actually have any privacy without joining Facebook or Twitter.
You see all these Facebook buttons everywhere? They are already tracking you without you needing to log in into Facebook or even having an account there.
Same thing for all the ad networks. Single pixel bugs and ads are used to track you. And from scraps of the info you left on some sites, and the emails and addresses you provided to shopping sites they know who you are, where you live, what is your phone number and what size of shoes you
Privacy? Hahahahaha!!! (Score:2)
A) Facebook and gogke already know all about you, unless you're meticulous with your cookies and only browse through Tor.
B) you're only a subpoena away from the government getting anytime they want about you, at best.
C) privacy is toast, in other words.
D) does a tine even us google+? Moreso, do any real companies have a presence there?
E) I'd be interested in a truelly neutral study about the effectiveness of advertising on Facebook. I know they're raking in the dollars, but that doesn't mean it's money wel
Paranoia from ignorance (Score:1)
I make my living extracting content from Facebook's API. If they are recording what sites you visit, it's not exposed anywhere in their API. I can say anything you've directly acted upon with your Facebook account, but looking at something is not a direct action. Further, a sample account was posted to Slashdot at one point, courtesy of the court system and none of that information was in there.
What you actually care about is protecting your information from people like me. To do that is simple. Click the a
correction (Score:1)
"However, I'm beginning to look into making money through various means on the side, one of them being pornography/videography. With these mediums, being seen is critically important"
Corrected the sentence for you :)
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Funny you should mention this....I have a friend that used to be a bouncer for many of the strip clubs in the Quarter...and he's lining me up a bunch of strippers that need publicity shots, that should make for some interesting shoots!!
Business vs Private (Score:2)
The privacy needs of a business and the privacy needs of a private individual are polar opposites.
Individuals usually want to remain hidden to the general public but not to their circle of friends.
A business usually wants maximum exposure to attract customers. That is the whole idea of advertising.
Yes it is worth it (Score:1)
How much does it *really* help? (Score:4, Interesting)
I see lots of businesses investing in Facebook and Twitter. This is driven by the marketing departments, and especially the younger staff that wants to prove something. Maybe I'm an old geezer, but I am not convinced - in the businesses I am familiar with, I haven't seen any sort of believable results, and the marketing departments can't produce any numbers, only "trust us, we know what we're doing".
Has anyone seen actual, solid numbers from any business that prove that these marketing channels were worth the investment? If so, for what type of business?
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I remember reading that advertisers and brands were getting a paltry 5% return on Facebook campaigns. I cannot take that any further without more data, but it would appear to me that "facebook for business" is no better than groupon (and should be avoided unless you like getting bulldozed by a short-lived stampede of cheapskates).
That said, YMMV obviously based on your revenue model, which is what should be driving your decision making process when it comes to business development.
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http://www.zynga.com/ [zynga.com]
I was a stauch advocate.. (Score:3)
The article reads as "I was a staunch advocate for privacy until I realized I could make money by selling my soul."
Business Stand Point (Score:1)