New Cyberbullying Evidence Rules May Go Too Far 125
Posted
by
samzenpus
from the sticks-and-stones dept.
from the sticks-and-stones dept.
An anonymous reader writes "The Malaysian Government has recently passed an amendment to their Evidence Act that has been designed to hold cyber bullies accountable for their malicious tirades on blogs or Facebook Walls. Unfortunately, the amendment has been worded such that 'If your name, photograph or pseudonym appears on any publication depicting yourself as the author, you are deemed to have published the content' and 'If a posting comes from your Internet or phone account, you are deemed to be the publisher unless the contrary is proved.' What these raft of amendments have done is shifted the burden of proof to the accused. One is considered guilty until proven innocent. Even the simple act of posting an offending message on a friend's Facebook Wall could get that friend, and not the original poster, into trouble with this law. Although the amendments were initiated by good intentions, a conspiracist can see how easily this law can be misused to curb dissent in Malaysia."
In Malaysia, the authority is the final judge (Score:2)
True story, it happened in Malaysia:
A Mongolia female was blown to smithereens with C4
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Shaariibuugiin_Altantuyaa [wikipedia.org]
The Prime Minister of Malaysia, Najib Razak, is linked to the murder
That murder occurred in 2006
6 years have passed. Najib Razak is still not charged with the murder
In other words, in Malaysia, whether or not you are charged for a crime has nothing to do with whether or not you have committed that criminal act
If the authority says that you are guilty, even if
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Fair enough, but Obama is also guilty of murder and the people who are sent to Gitmo are also guilty until proven innocent and no such proof is even allowed. We also use torture in the US. Does Malaysia?
Re:Rights? Right. (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Rights? Right. (Score:5, Insightful)
That's not a bug, it's a feature.
Replace "you" with "politician with an axe to grind" and "lawlord" with "dissident"
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Frankly the whole "cyber bullying" thing is bullshit, there has been trolls and douchebags on the net as long as there HAS been a net, see Gabe's theory [penny-arcade.com] which has been proven true time and time again. IRL bullying is violence and real threats of violence, whereas trolls are like monkeys at the zoo flinging poo, don't like it? don't stand next to the monkey cage. Nearly every site has ToS that lets the mods banhammer the real shitheads and most places have mods that have a VERY limited tolerance for doucheba
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Speaking of a butthurt Mary Milktoast...
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We're not talking about random people on the internet that insult you because of something you wrote, we're talking about people you KNOW in real life that smear every single one of your online precenses with hate messages, racial slander, sexual references and so on.
In the case of Facebook and most instant messaging services, there's always an ignore/block feature that helps people deal with that. I can't really say I have much sympathy for a victim of cyberbullying if he doesn't make use of the available tools to block such people from contacting him online.
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So, whiny people who have no social skills and get butthurt > freedom of speech on the Internet?
Jesus, seriously?
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Not at all, we just had a politician who committed what might, to the untrained eye, look like fraud, but she's been held to account and it turns out it wasn't fraud at all, it was an "oversight"
In Malaysia, corruption is so rampant that they actually spent 250 Million local currency (about 100 Million USD) to raise 3,000 cows
When that matter was exposed, that female politician, the one who got the generous 250 Million gift, insisted that she's not guilty of anything
And in deed, she was NOT guilty of anything - for in Malaysia, as long as you are a part of the ruling elite, you can corrupt away and the authority will use the word "oversight" to explain away how the money was lost
After that, case cl
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What if you use the picture and name of the king himself? Will he get arrested for insulting himself?
Re:Rights? Right. (Score:4, Funny)
Is that the online version of "stop hitting yourself"?
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And if you listen carefully you can hear the teacher say "Bush was a shitty president".
Actually, I think the teacher said "Bush was a sitting president."
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And now think what a beowulf cluster of those could accomplish!
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And In Soviet Russia, nothing of value creates you.
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And now think what a beowulf cluster of those could accomplish!
A slashdot mirror?
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But then why do they feel they need the law? If almost no-one will defame the king, isn't it easier to just, say, ignore the fools that don't love him?
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Because none of this is true. The king of Thailand has very significant political influence - none of the military coups during his reign happened without his approval. He comes out against those defamation laws occasionally because it looks better when he does. If he really didn't want these laws to exist they wouldn't be there, though.
Yes, most Thais do love the king, but that's partly because the actual role of the king can't be discussed.
Re:Rights? Right. (Score:4, Funny)
They have freedom of religion, yet by law Malaysians of a certain ethnic original are automatically Muslims. Under some pretty common interpretations of Islam, to leave Islam is to be invite death. Yes, great freedom of religion there. Next time I come to Earth I'll sure want a nice holiday before I get back to work. I know Thailand and Malaysia are pretty low on the list of places I'd like to visit, and so they should be for anyone not wanting their money to support these guys who make my old neighbors in Nazareth (you know who you are!) seem progressive by comparison.
They tend to forget these things in their tourism adverts. To be fair, the U.S. rarely mentions the genital groping TSA when looking for tourists, and they rarely publicize the notion of "constitution free zones" wherever Bush/Obama decide that discarding freedom in the face of a marginal and unlikely threat is the right thing to do. Perhaps Spain is where I'll head to. Good food (the olives in Heaven are disappointing) and wines, and the women are exceptional if you can stand the tempers.
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Perhaps Spain is where I'll head to. Good food (the olives in Heaven are disappointing) and wines, and the women are exceptional if you can stand the tempers.
I'd go for Portugal instead. Similar, but with all the drugs decriminalized.
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Come to Spain. Sit with us. Speak English all week. Eat English all week. Drink English all week.
South of Spain: It's England with better weather (not today or yesterday or the day before - gee it's hot here. We also have better beaches in England.).
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Then use fire to fight fire. Use the name of the president (or whoever is in charge of the government there) to slander the king and watch them duke it out.
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Isn't Malaysia the country where you can be arrested for insulting the king? Who cares about whether this law "goes too far"?
Did you just insult the king and his laws?
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Isn't Malaysia the country where you can be arrested for insulting the king? Who cares about whether this law "goes too far"?
When you say "the country" you seem to be implying that there is only one country were "lese-majesty" is a crime. That is not the case. Also, I cannot find any evidence that even a single person has been arrested for "lese-majesty" in Malaysia. At least in modern times. Do you have a reference?
Why the difference (Score:5, Insightful)
I still don't get why people seem to insist on different laws for "cyber" something versus "in real life" something. Bullying is bullying. Threats are threats. Adjust your existing laws accordingly, but they should cover both things the same way.
Re:Why the difference (Score:4, Funny)
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Christ, when I hear the cyber thing it puts me in mind of elderly white men trying to connect to young black youths by saying "you da man" and expressing an appreciation for the raps of Ice Tea.
Re:Why the difference (Score:5, Insightful)
You can put someone down, harass them, etc, on-line exactly the same way you can in person. Punching someone in the stomach is assault, not bullying, and I assume that they already have laws for that. Just because the bullying doesn't involve assault does not make it less damaging.
Re:Why the difference (Score:5, Insightful)
You can put someone down, harass them, etc, on-line exactly the same way you can in person.
No you can't. You cannot turn off a real bully by clicking your mouse.
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You can walk away, which is the equivalent. It's already happened, the damage has been done. Here in Canada, (and I've seen several in the US as well) there have been quite a few cases of openly gay high school students committing suicide after being verbally bullied for many years. It's not that easy to turn it off in real life, or on-line without cutting yourself off from society at large. Most of the "nerds" that I know put up with pretty much the same thing in school. I'm quite surprised that people her
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Walk away? The bullies LET you walk away?
What fantasy world is this where someone can just walk away from their tormentors and not be followed and attacked?
On Facebook, you can block people. In real life, you're stuck with them.
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On Facebook you can block people.
In real life, you can Glock people.
The shooting rampages are Darwin's answer to bullies.
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You can walk away, which is the equivalent. It's already happened, the damage has been done. Here in Canada, (and I've seen several in the US as well) there have been quite a few cases of openly gay high school students committing suicide after being verbally bullied for many years. It's not that easy to turn it off in real life, or on-line without cutting yourself off from society at large. Most of the "nerds" that I know put up with pretty much the same thing in school. I'm quite surprised that people here on SlashDot are having a hard time grasping the concept.
I think it's because when we were kids being cyberbullied, the only people who were bullying us were other nerds and the only people who knew about it were other nerds. And we could get back at them by hacking into their BBS and deleting their warez. Revenge is a dish best served cold and all that.
Not that I would ever do that. I'm speaking completely hypothetically.
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You can't "turn off" a cyber bully either.
True, you may be able to ignore their posts, but you can't stop them from spreading hurtful lies (or hurtful truths) to everybody else in your social circle. You can pretty well destroy someones life by making accusations of pedophilia, beastiality, etc.
Even if you can sue them for slander and win, your life will be pretty difficult when your potential employers google you and see "John Q. Target has been accused by several local farmers of sexually assaulting their
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True, you may be able to ignore their posts, but you can't stop them from spreading hurtful lies (or hurtful truths) to everybody else in your social circle.
Why are you readily giving up your information on the internet, anyway? Why are people in your social circle believing random rumors? Perhaps they're not people you'd like to have in your "social circle."
You can pretty well destroy someones life by making accusations of pedophilia, beastiality, etc.
And whose fault is that, really? The people who believe the rumors and then act on the misinformation. I'd say they're mostly at fault for that bit of stupidity.
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My point is you don't even have to own a damn computer to get cyber bullied or slandered.
First of all, who said that cyber bullying means the person doing it doesn't know you in real life?
And even if none of your friends believe what's been said about you, that doesn't help if your unemployable for anything more than minimum wage jobs because on the internet your name is synonymous with "raper of animals." You cant just tell the people who won't hire you that they're being stupid and have them go "Oh you're
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First of all, who said that cyber bullying means the person doing it doesn't know you in real life?
No one. But in that case, you probably have a real bully on your hands.
And even if none of your friends believe what's been said about you, that doesn't help if your unemployable for anything more than minimum wage jobs because on the internet your name is synonymous with "raper of animals."
Employers will believe random rumors about you? As I said, I believe that is simply idiotic. Some seem to like to blame others for their own stupidity. "Sorry I buy into random rumors spread around on the internet, but it's that other guy's fault, I swear!"
Perhaps rather than blame a few individuals spreading idiotic rumors on the internet (although I'd say they are at fault for spreading the rumors), we blame the people actually 'harmin
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Punching someone in the stomach is assault, not bullying, and I assume that they already have laws for that.
Actually bullying and assault are the same thing. What I object to most about all this cyber-bullying nonsense is the attempt to redefine the word "bullying" to include insults as well. Back when I went to school, bullies were students who beat up other students. People who shouted insults were known as jerks.
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but we can't make laws for a minority of mentally deranged people with OCD and depression.
Sure we can... if it's for the children! Then every piece of legislation is okay as long as children really are in danger (because they're objectively more important than everyone else)!
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Please people write anything you want about me it means nothing at all, since again I don't have to read or care.
You posted this as an Anonymous Coward because you know this simply isn't true. Give your real identity and make the same request. See how things go for you when the top couple result for googling your name and address are people complaining about how you raped their poor innocent family pet or mentally challenged sister.
Potential employers don't even have to believe the accusations. They'll refrain from hiring you simply because they don't want your name associated with their business.
This is an extreme ex
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The only difference is that online bullying leaves a very undeniable mark, unlike real bullying which is easily brushed aside as little Geeky "fell down the stairs", clumsy little idiot that he is, and we'll leave it at that because besides him, nobody will actually raise a voice about it and there won't be any evidence it has been otherwise. Bully says he fell down the stairs, teachers follow up because it's easier that way and everyone is happy.
With cyber-bullying there is undeniable proof that there has
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Bruises heal. Minds shatter.
And constant physical abuse can also cause the latter.
In my opinion, there is something wrong with someone if they're so oversensitive that they can't withstand a random person on the internet mocking them. I don't even know how such people manage to survive in society.
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Anyone who thinks an insult is the same as a punch, has never had to deal with a real bully.
I went to school in the 60's, throughout grade school there was a girl in my level called Allison. Nature had not
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It's because lawmakers likely teach their children how to bully, but don't know enough about cyberbullying to do the same. Also, bullying is less likely to harm the bullies political career later in life. It's much harder to 'expose' your opponent if all you have is the word of a former victim, then it is if you have detailed transcripts of everything he/she wrote.
So cyberbullying makes a hands fell-good tough-on-crime target. Prohibit something that they don't care about, but many parents do.
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However there seems to be a real failing in this law to differentiate between push and pull 'sic' cuber-bullying. The bully visiting you and hurling insults versus you visiting the bully and being insulted or meeting on neutral ground and being insulted. What level of exchange constitutes bullying and minors versus adults. Of course why minors are even on an adult network when minors are not allowed unaccompanied in any other adult forums like night clubs or hotels, well that another story, perhaps it has
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Of course why minors are even on an adult network when minors are not allowed unaccompanied in any other adult forums like night clubs or hotels
Probably because there is no way to stop them. The parents are the only ones who have a chance to stop them, but some simply don't care (and for good reason, in my opinion). I don't see any point in stopping them, either.
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The point is you don't attempt to turn an adults network into suitable for toddlers network because of lazy parents. If you want a child suitable internet you specifically create one.
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I can understand what leads to laws such as this, or the recent NY attempt to eliminate anonymous posting. I don't entirely support the logic, but I can understand it:
We've always had the ability to be anonymous in our insults. We can shout our insults from the crowd or dress up in white robes and a hood to attend the KKK rally. But the major difference is that in those cases, we are not so easily free of the consequences of our actions. It is easy now to post pretty much anywhere under a false or non
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Because there are twp properties about the Internet that do not apply to local life as we're used to.
1) The internet memory is infinite, and forever. Attempts to wipe the memory result in it being more spread out and diverse (aka Streisand Effect). Once something is
Basic Overview (Score:5, Informative)
For anybody who wants a basic overview of Malay law regarding these matters, there's an issue of the Malayan Law Journal (actually an article supplement) that covers this in language easily understood by the layperson (and it's also in English, to boot). The PDF is located here: http://jeraldgomez.com/pdf/7cd40a1889d4539feffda786372ff33b.pdf [jeraldgomez.com] and I would point you to page 3 (page 4 of the PDF).
Basically, they are based on English Common Law, and signed the UDHR, but have a history of legislation that allows detention without trial, originally designed to combat communism.
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red commies, capitalists, terrorists, hooligans, pedefiles, Jews, etc. etc.
Any law that removes freedoms guaranteed in the constitution for the purpose of fighting any specific "undesirables" because these are "special circumstances", is a law that will be used to crush dissent, "wrong" opinions, and generally keep people in power in power. These are all slippery slope laws that have no business in modern societies.
"Special circumstances" are what the courts are for, not politicians.
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Basically, they are based on English Common Law, and signed the UDHR, but have a history of legislation that allows detention without trial, originally designed to combat communism.
And the United States of Amerika has Gitmo for indefinite detention of those the government unilaterally deems without trial to be terrorists or terrorist sympathizers. Funny how a US military base is located in a Communist country yet there own citizens cannot visit the island nation as tourists...though they could visit if deemed a terrorist. Lovely world when logic and ethics, much less the rule of law, cease to mean anything.
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Child soldiers, too [wikipedia.org]. He was 15 when they arrested him, and his detention at Gitmo (and continued detention in Canada) is a clear violation of the Geneva Conventions for the treatment of child soldiers.
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You should be responsible for what happens on your internet connection and online accounts...
The Internet wouldn't be economically viable if you applied that rule equally to everyone, because no company could risk the liability of providing any form of large-scale transit service.
You could set some arbitrary dividing line somewhere on the scale from 'householder' to 'multinational telecoms corporation', but why should they have greater protection under the law when they provide a service to me, than I have providing a service to my family?
(Not counting the obvious answer that they have more money t
Asian Law (Score:1)
overkill (Score:1)
Guilty or Innocent (Score:2)
http://youtu.be/qXbXFJxltyo [youtu.be]
Nuff Said...
Good Luck With This... (Score:1)
Kinda curious on how they intend to apply this "law" to somebody OUTSIDE Malaysia "cyber-bullying" someone inside Malaysia.. The denizens of /. know how well laws like this work when applied to a world-wide medium like the internet, namely THEY DON'T!! I guess the old wisdom that you have to have 75% of your brain removed, 100% of your honesty to become a politician is true..
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That's what extradition treaties are for.
these were not "initiated by good intentions" (Score:2)
this whole cyber-bullying is nonsense. It needn't ever have been anything more than standard slander and libel laws which already existed.
I certainly can't say that I made it through my childhood without being bullied. But minus the actual bruises, I'd never suggest that I'd be better off without the bullies.
Quite frankly, the amount of adult insulting I've received from family, friends, and clients for having spent a real amount of money on trees is for more offensive than anything from my school days.
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These are important life lessons that normal people learn.
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Probably because I've long since learned to ignore other people's opinions.
You're not sensitive enough. You need to cry and commit suicide when other people express an opinion that you don't agree with.
This is all for the children, so anything is okay.
You are mistaken (Score:2)
Malaysia? (Score:3)
It will be used exclusively against people who criticize Islam.
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Pure FUD. Sharia and Mundane laws are well established to handle criticism of Islam, the King, or other key components of Malaysia.
Bullying is actually easily solved (Score:2)
Cyber or not, the solution is the same: Turn the tables. Bully back! Make the bully the victim. It works like a charm.
Just be prepared to go to any length necessary in order to match and respond in kind.
Example: The bully beats up weaker kids and steal their lunch money (classic).
Solution: Beat up the bully and steal all his money. Bigger brothers of the weak kid are the best to use here, but parents and even the odd biker will do. Just lay it on him and don't hold back. Make sure the bully knows that he as