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'First Base' In Greek Courts For ISP-Level Blocking 86

Posted by timothy
from the thought-you-liked-it-that-way dept.
arisvega writes "At a first level (the lowest court level in the Greek judiciary system) an order has been issued (article in Greek, Google translation is fair enough) for a 'plan on behalf of Internet Service Providers regarding he implementation of technological measures to deny access to internet users for webpages through which illegal copies of copyrighted work are being distributed.' The order seems to be general and descriptive, and is a manifestation of the implementation process for an even more general and vague larger-scale EU directive, which is the common source that caused the rulings recently posted on slashdot regarding the UK, the Netherlands and Finland. This appears to be one of the reasons that prompted Anonymous to launch defacing attacks on Greek government websites some three months back."
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'First Base' In Greek Courts For ISP-Level Blocking

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  • by Anonymous Coward

    For a country that is in economic turmoil and instituting extensive austerity measures, would it not make sense for these (presumably expensive) 'less urgent civil-type proceedings' to be dropped from the court system. Sure, the *IAA may be able to make a good case for why these rules (and court cases) are needed, but when you have many people going hungry and people setting themselves on fire on the streets, Greece has to ask itself where its priorities are.

    • by Rosco P. Coltrane (209368) on Sunday May 20, 2012 @04:31AM (#40055765)

      That's a bit silly. It's like telling a kid who has terminal cancer he doesn't need to carry on going to school because there's no point. Cancer kids and Greece have a right to fully functional lives.

      There is another issue: if people knew **AA shenanigans could be put on hold if their country was in dire straights, that would be reason enough for people to demand that the government bankrupt the country. Just for the joy of sticking it up the **AAs' collective ass, ya know...

      • The no-school argument actually makes some sense. If a kid is going to die in a year, school really serves no purpose. Why not make it optional, and at least let him enjoy the time he has left more? It isn't as if he needs to study for a career.
        • by arth1 (260657)

          The no-school argument actually makes some sense. If a kid is going to die in a year, school really serves no purpose. Why not make it optional, and at least let him enjoy the time he has left more? It isn't as if he needs to study for a career.

          Here in the US, the answer is "litigation". If the cancer by a long chance is arrested or cured, and he grows up without a full education, his parents will likely sue the state for millions.
          And get it. Even if it was their idea and choice.

          Even if he is dying, some parents might sue over discrimination, allegedly because of their kid being treated differently, but in reality to get money. Nothing like little cancer sick Billy on the stand to get a jury to award big money.

          • The parents will not win a lawsuit against the government for decisions they themselves made, and again, it would be the parents'/child's option. Not saying kick them out of school, just no reason to force them to go.

            If I were 10 and dying of cancer, I would sure as hell rather play at parks and go to Sea World and Disneyland and shit than go to school and learn about basic math and 15th-century history.

            Saying that "the government could be sued" over this is exactly what is wrong with this fucking country.

            • by travbrad (622986)

              "Then again, I also think people who have diseases from drug abuse such as kidney/liver failure from drinking, lung cancer from smoking, hep-_ from shooting up, etc should be completely denied medical care. You made your bed, now die in it."

              Interesting that you didn't include obesity and lack of exercise. That is arguably causing a lot more illness and costs to the healthcare system than drinking and drug use, and like alcohol/drugs it is down the responsibility of the individual.

              The other issue is that i

        • by Kjella (173770)

          If a kid is going to die in a year, school really serves no purpose.

          Your grades don't matter, but if you're in school age then school is where all your friends are. Sure if you'd take time off to go to Disney World that's fine but I think being at home playing all by yourself would just make life seem even less meaningful. I don't know as it's a pretty horrible situation to be in but I think I'd try to maintain normality for as long as possible to stave off the gloom and doom of what's coming. I do feel I'm applying a different standard than I would to myself though, becaus

      • by kdemetter (965669)

        Comparing piracy to childhood cancer, that's pretty low.

        Be real : Greece doesn't need this now, they first need to get back on their feet.
        There is nothing copyright groups can achieve by this : if you don't have enough to buy food, you are not going to buy music/videos just because you can't pirate them.

        I suspect a different reason : using the 'piracy' excuse to block websites, it opens the door for blocking any website. For example any website which provides a dissident voice to the government, or is used

    • by buchner.johannes (1139593) on Sunday May 20, 2012 @04:41AM (#40055793) Homepage Journal

      The EU works like this: ministers from all countries come together and decide on certain directives -- a description of how the laws of all countries should behave. Then they make a contract on behalf of their country with each other to adjust the laws of their country to adhere to this standard.
      The contracts say that you have a certain time for implementation, and whoever doesn't implement the law is being fined (there is a chain of measures, which you can also appeal to).

      Since Greece agreed to the contract, they have to implement it.

      With the (expensive) data retention directive -- which has been ruled unjustified in some countries already -- countries have a chance to make a good case to the EU for rejecting it. But then the directive has to be overruled and the contracts have to be cancelled in some way -- ideally without anyone losing face.

      When the ministers agree a directive would be a good idea to implement, and then when it's time to implement the consensus is that the directive is a bad idea, the blame has to go somewhere. Usually the ministers make themselves small in the country, and everyone blames the EU for imposing bad laws on the innocent countries -- disregarding that the countries agreed to the very same law and made a specific contract with each other.

      • Re: (Score:2, Interesting)

        by Anonymous Coward

        I notice something you never mentioned in the process - citizens voting. Presumably this is because the entire process is antidemocratic.

        • Why is it undemocratic? The Council of the European Union has a democratic mandate because they're representatives of democratically elected governments (and can be sent home by voters if they don't approve), and more importantly, directives have to be approved by the European Parliament, who are elected directly. (Obligatory link [wikipedia.org])

      • by Kjella (173770) on Sunday May 20, 2012 @07:07AM (#40056131) Homepage

        Well, first of all your process better describes the EU under the previous Maastricht Treaty than under the current Lisbon Treaty that came into effect in 2009. Now both the European Commission and the European Parliament - which is voted in directly - has to approve of directives. Secondly, there is a problem here with time. For example here in Norway we're required to implement the Data Retention Directive that was passed in the EU in 2006 but we still haven't done it. And no matter how much we vote now for different politicians and new ministers it's impossible for us to get out of this agreement. Our own parliament has been effectively neutered so it can't actually do anything. If the government passes a bad law, we can elect a new government and change the law. If they agree to a bad EU directive, we're fucked.

        • Hey, Germany knows what's best for you. Just lie back and enjoy it.

        • by arisvega (1414195)

          For example here in Norway we're required to implement the Data Retention Directive that was passed in the EU in 2006

          How so? Norway is not in the EU.

    • by Znork (31774)

      If anything, invalidating intellectual property laws is a good way to increase competitiveness, something that Greece needs badly. It's also a very cheap and painless way to go about it.

      It's not random chance that economies like China or India that don't cater as much to the monopoly damage of IPR tend to grow much faster. The odd thing is that many supposedly free-market proponents actually seem to believe that implementing what is in effect a significant private taxation system on the economy is somehow g

      • It's not random chance that economies like China or India that don't cater as much to the monopoly damage of IPR tend to grow much faster.

        Yes it is.

        • by arisvega (1414195)

          It's not random chance that economies like China or India that don't cater as much to the monopoly damage of IPR tend to grow much faster.

          Yes it is.

          Why?

      • It's not random. They are copying us - thus they don't want IP laws (China more so then anyone else.).

        Brazil, India and China's is based on convergence. Get the basics right (education, infrastructure, workable business law & regulations), then all you have to do is copy what the west has already done. The majority of China's growth is not sexy - it's basic industrialization that the west has already done.

        Now, jump forward 0 to 40 years depending on the industry.In order to grow China et. al will have t

    • by Anonymous Coward

      If you read Naomi Kline's Shock Doctrine you would understand.

      Radical capitalists realise the only way to get change through is during times of disaster. It just so happens that the GFC is a brilliant opportunity to dismantle 'socialist' Europe. Almost as if it had been done on purpose...

  • by Rosco P. Coltrane (209368) on Sunday May 20, 2012 @04:24AM (#40055739)

    At a first level (the lowest court level in the Greek judiciary system) an order has been issued

    At the last level, you have to kill a boss and say "I'll rip your head off and shit down your neck" to win the court case.

  • by Anonymous Coward

    This is the most blatant expression of EU's anti-democratic face.

    The Council is just a bunch of bureaucrats, removed from the constituents by two- to three levels of administria, who feel most cozy with all those lobbyists buying laws from them.

    • by Rosco P. Coltrane (209368) on Sunday May 20, 2012 @04:36AM (#40055773)

      You just noticed? How quaint.

      I have news for you: in pretty much every country, politicos and powers-that-be mostly care about (1) lining their pockets and (2) being reelected to carry on lining their pockets for a few more years. Oh and yes, a sizable bunch of them also get off on power and control, and seeing their own faces on TV. At any rate, precious few care about their constituents...

  • by Anonymous Coward

    ISP Level blocking in China or arab spring countries: BAD BAD BAD
    ISP Level blocking in Europe: WE LOVE IT. ++good..

  • by Xest (935314) on Sunday May 20, 2012 @04:50AM (#40055817)

    "The order seems to be general and descriptive, and is a manifestation of the implementation process for an even more general and vague larger-scale EU directive, which is the common source that caused the rulings recently posted on slashdot regarding the UK, the Netherlands and Finland."

    Can anyone point to the larger-scale EU directive referred to in the summary? I've missed the news on any such directive having been passed. To date I was under the impression at EU level, all such directives have been in quite the opposite direction so I'd be intrigued to see where this one came from.

  • Along with the rest of us. it is pretty obvious that the cartels are gonna take the Internet and turn it into a home shopping network. Of course the politicians will be happy to do this because not only will they get to cash some MAFIAA checks but after the Arab Springs they are naturally afraid that some tea party or occupy style movement might actually get all the screwed over public to demand they do more than bullshit and cash checks.

    So what we need here isn't public outcry, we have seen how worthless t

  • First Base (Score:4, Interesting)

    by DerCed (155038) on Sunday May 20, 2012 @05:14AM (#40055869)

    Idiomatic expressions like "First Base" are unfortunate for international readers. Oh, wait, I forgot we don't actually have editors. I'll retract my criticism.

    • by Dahamma (304068)

      Oh come on, you don't have to be from the US to imagine a Greek judge making out with a music executive.

      • by arth1 (260657)

        You're begging the question.

        See, to even think about "making out" you have to already know that it's related to making out.

        • by Dahamma (304068)

          I'm not begging the question, I'm making a joke.

          Not every post on slashdot requires you to to try to apply your favorite logical fallacy, you know :)

          And besides - as CmdrTaco used to say whenever people whined about this sort of thing - this is a US-based site. As such it sometimes focuses on American technology and politics. And it inherently uses American English idiom, so get over it.

          And to even think about making out you have to already know what "making out" means. (hmm, I meant that as another exam

    • by Pubstar (2525396)
      Unless they're from Japan. Then they would get it.
    • But I have to wonder what kissing/making out has to do with ISP blocking web site.
  • by Anonymous Coward

    I see the usual pattern of passing evil laws / precedents when the people are too busy worrying about something else (say, like food and the roof over their heads). As the economic crisis in Greece continue to unfold, expect more unjust but relatively minor (from a purely survival point of view) laws to be passed, simply because the people don't care. It's okay if you take away some of our rights so long as we get food on the dinner table

  • The last paragraph simply states "similar decisions have been implemented by other member states that protect intellectual rights without restricting user rights "

    In any event, it is simply an arms war ... any child in primary/high school knows how to get around blocking Facebook and other sites. So effectively the message is

    "Good luck with that"

    In fact the funniest part of the whole thing is that it appears that the public with their vote is actually pressuring governments to let them pirate, hence the la
  • Don't you guys get the feeling that we are moving backwards.

    Instead of embracing new technology we try and kill it.

    What really sadens me is that copying is such a fundamendal part of our human existence without it none of us would be able to survive. We cannot even learn language without copying. Now we want to artificialy control it.

    Interesting but sad.

  • Greece is out of the Euro. Whenever so many politicians say, "We would like for Greece to stay in the Euro, but . . . ", they are really just wiggling around the truth a bit. It is similar when they say they all want peace, when the tanks are already rolling.

    The whole matter is going to be rather unpleasant for all parties involved. And even for those not involved. The EU taxpayers (especially in France and Germany) will lose billions. The Greeks will need to readjust their wages to be internationally competitive again. In other words, right now they cost way more than they are worth. See "The Economist" for details on this: www.economist.com .

    So leaving the Euro, will also mean repudiating international debts to fund the new Drachma. And nationalizing industries, including foreign owned ones. This has all been threaten by Alexis Tsipras, leader of the radical left Syriza party, who will probably end up leading Greece after the elections next month. The Greeks can't bear the austerity measures any more. They want the Euro, but they can't afford the cost of staying in. Unfortunately for the Greeks, they don't realize that things will be worse with the Drachma, because the government will have no money to pay them. Since the foreign banks won't lend them any more money, they will just have to print more, causing inflation, and making the currency worthless on the international market.

    So what will they care about claims of piracy? Go ahead and try to collect any money from them. The simply will not be able to pay.

    This is all not going to sit well with the rest of the EU. The repudiation of debts will lead to private law suits, and Greece will find itself afoul of EU laws. So a bigger danger, is if they will be able to stay in the EU itself any longer.

    So this legal issue is just like "fireflies before the storm," when compared what is to come.

    • Unfortunately for the Greeks, they don't realize that things will be worse with the Drachma, because the government will have no money to pay them. Since the foreign banks won't lend them any more money, they will just have to print more, causing inflation, and making the currency worthless on the international market.

      Your forgetting something very important, something Tsipras understands better then you do. If Greece as one of the oldest EU members, drops out of the Eurozone, it will push more people to do the same.

      Fact is the way the Euro dollar was introduced was flawed from the start, having a pan-European currency and everyone's prices regulated to make them equal, and yet wages were never adjusted, nor was the conversion between the various currencies and the Euro to make things more evenly adjusted.

      The Greek

    • Unfortunately for the Greeks, they don't realize that things will be worse with the Drachma, because the government will have no money to pay them. Since the foreign banks won't lend them any more money, they will just have to print more, causing inflation, and making the currency worthless on the international market.

      You are buying right into goverment & systemic propaganda, 100% of the money in the assistance package go to the banks and for repaying the debt. Salaries and pensions have for years being paid by tax money and other income. All these years the borrowed money was channeled to banks and dubious private investments. The fear of being unable to pay public sector salaries and pesion is fueled by the goverment and the ruling class in order to limit resistance towards the austerity measures.

  • Okay - I barely ever post... but I saw this and just thought... "Really?" With the current Eurozone crisis, the fact that Greece have practically already defaulted on their debts, and the ever increasing likely hood that they will exit the Euro, is this really something which they should be working on? Personally, I'd just like to see them put a little bit more effort into reclaiming the billions of Euro in taxes owed due to a majority who aren't declaring their income... Just my 2 (euro)cents...
  • Given the fundamental financial issues Greece faces, it is amazing they would fall for the red herring offered by RIA and others.

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