Journalist Arrested For Tweet Deported to Saudi Arabia 604
New submitter cosmicaug writes with an update to yesterday's report that journalist Hamza Kashgari had been arrested by Malaysian police acting on a request conveyed from the Saudi government via Interpol. Now, says the BBC, "Police confirmed to the BBC that Hamza Kashgari was sent back to Saudi Arabia on Sunday despite protests from human rights groups. Mr Kashgari's controversial tweet last week sparked more than 30,000 responses and several death threats. Insulting the prophet is considered blasphemous in Islam and is punishable by death in Saudi Arabia. Mr Kashgari, 23, fled Saudi Arabia last week and was detained upon his arrival in the Malaysian capital Kuala Lumpur on Thursday." Writes cosmicaug: "Sadly, the most likely outcome is that they are going to execute this man for three tweets."
Stop buying oil from these dipshits (Score:4, Insightful)
Remember kids (Score:5, Insightful)
Separation of State and Church = good.
Why does Interpol even acknowledge this?! (Score:5, Insightful)
"Sadly, the most likely outcome is that they are going to execute this man for three tweets."
Why does Interpol even acknowledge this?!
What is even worse is that Interpol acknowledges blasphemy as a crime.
This may give the world the impression that religions have substance and may be respected.
Re:A second just Justice.... Please (Score:3, Insightful)
That only applies to countries that themselves don't have the death penalty. Malaysia does have the death penalty. Besides that, this is still probably even a crime in Malaysia, since they have Shariah law. I think he was only deported to Saudi Arabia for his trial because he is a citizen of Saudi Arabia.
Re:A second just Justice.... Please (Score:5, Insightful)
Because Malaysia is mostly Muslim and they think it's totally cool that Saudi Arabia wants to execute this guy over bashing "the prophet".
Note, when you are fleeing a country for religious reasons, don't flee to another country that is same religion as one you are fleeing from. Double if it's the same state religion. Pick a place that doesn't care like Netherlands or Belgium.
Yeah, mod him down (Score:0, Insightful)
Re:Remember kids (Score:5, Insightful)
Differentiating "church" from "reality" is even better.
Re:Moral High Ground (Score:3, Insightful)
What a difference a decade makes.
What, because the US also now executes people for being insufficiently deferential to the state religion?
Or is this just yet another misdirected, fuzzy-minded Julian Assange fanboy thing?
Re:This is what belief in skybeings (Score:4, Insightful)
MPAA:
You have illegally downloaded Harry Potter Movies.
You shall hereby be sentenced to death by hanging with a CAT-5 ethernet cable.
By order of:
The United Corporations Of America
Re:Malaysia is Muslim (Score:4, Insightful)
Unless you have a way to show that one moral system is better than another, you can't say one country's laws and preferences are better than another.
Luckily, it's actually very easy to compare laws and judicial systems, and find one - as informed by specific philosphical/moral tenets, and codified in a constitution - to be, in fact, plainly superior. That is, if rationality plays any role in the mechanisms by which you evaluate such things. I don't fee any urge to use crazy magical thinking as a standard by which to compare systems, so I have none of the trouble that some people - strangely, toxically - have with the need for moral relativism in order to remain politically correct and not hurt anyone's feelings.
Re:Moral High Ground (Score:2, Insightful)
As much as I dislike our meddling in other countries directly (Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam, the list goes on), and pushing our own BS morality diplomatically (ACTA, War on drugs, etc), we should as a government stand against things that run counter to freedom of speech, religion and other core aspects of our country.
The problem is our government only gives lip service to those amazing and praiseworthy ideals, and uses them in the worst possible ways.
But unfortunately as a people we have become a trampled, apathetic mass of idiots bemused by bread and circuses, and as long as our politicians feed at the tit of corporations and pander to their interests, and as long as we suck the oil dick of the middle east, we will continue to turn a blind eye to the issues of true importance.
Re:And these people are our strongest allies? (Score:5, Insightful)
I would have stopped considering them allies the second it was known that 16 out of the 19 9/11 hijackers were from Saudi Arabia.
Re:But Malaysia is moderate muslim.... (Score:5, Insightful)
With Islam, there is no such thing as moderate Islam.
Turn the clock back 600 years or so (the difference in age between Christianity an Islam) and look at the behavior of the Catholic Church.
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition ....
Re:Remember kids (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Malaysia is Muslim (Score:3, Insightful)
Other people have morals based on other things, including not hurting people's feelings. How can you judge yours to be better, except to claim that your beliefs are better?
Re:Remember kids (Score:4, Insightful)
Religion = bad, and the current (YMMV over history) worst is Islam.
Re:A second just Justice.... Please (Score:5, Insightful)
The question isn't whether the country has total freedom of speech and religion, it's whether the target country will deport this guy for this offense.
If a country doesn't like Islam too much, and bans people wearing Islamic veils in public, then it's quite likely that someone showing up there from an Islamic country, on the run because he insulted the Islamic religion, probably isn't going to be deported.
Re:A second just Justice.... Please (Score:5, Insightful)
It's only ever treated as "international territory" when it's a convenient fiction for the host nation. No nation that I'm aware of has a problem arresting people that it wants to arrest off planes that are just passing through. The US and other western nations certainly don't.
Knock off the Islam-bashing (Score:5, Insightful)
Man there's a heck of a lot of trolls commenting here.
Look, this is a problem of dictatorship, not of religion. The majority of the world's Muslims live in democracies and don't have such repressive laws. Muslims in America are aghast at such an unjust situation. Saudi is the backwards exception in the Muslim world. I'm a Muslim and I certainly don't support what's going on here.
Re:A second just Justice.... Please (Score:2, Insightful)
Considering the volume of air traffic between Saudi Arabia and Malaysia, it is entirely possible that this was simply the first step in his travel plans.
I am an expert on fleeing countries, having watched most of the Bourne and Mission Impossible franchises (except for the hour long car chases - I fast forward through those), and can unequivocally state that your first mission (should you choose to accept it) is to clear datum. Take the first plane, submarine, camel or rickshaw out of the immediate jurisdiction of the people whom you have irritated. Then, it is just an exercise in staying ahead of inter-jurisdictional cooperation.
Thankfully we have Interpol available to efficiently process detain-for-extradition requests for international terrorists such as individuals who voice their opinion.
Re:A second just Justice.... Please (Score:5, Insightful)
It's a different problem in the USA. At least the people being killed are supposedly guilty of a real crime, mainly murder (I don't think you can be executed for anything less). Everyone in the world agrees that murder is a heinous crime and that people shouldn't be allowed to just murder others and not be punished for it somehow. The problem is that the judicial process used to try and convict these people is severely flawed, so that occasionally non-guilty people are executed for a crime they did not commit, like Troy Davis.
This, while certainly bad, is still a far cry from a country where people are routinely executed for things which should not be crimes (and even more, shouldn't be capital crimes, rather than slap-on-the-wrist crimes), such as leaving the Islamic religion, saying bad things about it, having sex outside of marriage, and many other petty things that here in the West simply aren't crimes at all for the most part (except for some silly European countries where for some dumb reason, they do prosecute people for "insulting a religion", but the penalty is usually a small fine like $100, i.e. slap-on-the-wrist).
Re:Malaysia is Muslim (Score:5, Insightful)
How can you judge yours to be better,
Really? You can't summon the perspective to see that a moral system that stones women to death for teaching their daughters to read is fundamentally, objectively inferior to a system that doesn't do so?
Who cares if moral systems are based on different things? When they're based on death worship, for example, they are inherently, irrationally self destructive. When a moral code is based on lies (say, about the nature of the world around you) it is a code that embraces untruth as its foundation. Do you really find no means, in your own reckoning, to separate such a value system from one that seeks and acknowledges reality?
Re:Stop buying oil from these dipshits (Score:1, Insightful)
Green Energy (Score:4, Insightful)
Just tell me where to buy the Mr. Fusion upgrade.
What is trying to be done is to develop alternative or "green" energy. Unfortunately with the rancorous political dialog here in the US, it's being dragged down.
I firmly believe that the only way for us in the US to fully develop other energy sources is for government involvement. I agree, it's not the best solution but US business is too short sighted to pursue that avenue on its own - and part of their short shortsightedness is from Wall Street pressure - got to have immediate returns, after all.
In the meantime, all of the cutting edge alternative energy developments are being done in Europe and in China.
I find that quite damning of our political and business environment.
So, those Saudi assholes are going to keep doing their shit for a very long time - no thanks to us, the US.
Re:Remember kids (Score:4, Insightful)
That's the way they teach it in elementary school, but the Puritans were not exactly the most religiously tolerant folks. They did face laws in England restricting the ways religion could be practiced, but they didn't want to overturn the legal principles of state controlling religion, they just wanted to change the specifics of the law so that everyone would be forced to practice their way. When they set up in the Americas they promptly got to work enforcing religion as law. You may remember such examinations of their society as _The Scarlet Letter_ and historical events such as the Salem witch trials.
Re:A second just Justice.... Please (Score:5, Insightful)
Like Al Alwaki, an American citizen Obama executed by drone strike because of youtube videos? At least that is all we have to go on because he was never indicted, never charged, never given a trial before being "deprived of life" as REQUIRED in the constitution. Are you saying posting videos on youtube which the Feds don't like should be a death penalty offense? Because that's where we're at right now -- state sponsored murder due to content of speech. Seems like we're more on an equal footing with SA rather than morally superior.
Re:Remember kids (Score:5, Insightful)
Do you only count court-ordered execution? If not, a doctor was shot in the US in 2009 by anti-abortionists.
Re:A second just Justice.... Please (Score:5, Insightful)
Add to that the recent execution in Texas of a man virtually everyone with a IQ outside of single digits is certain was innocent, and its pretty clear that looking good, looking hard on crime, and being a righteous Christian hard-ass (sweet Jeebus my brain hurts just putting those words together into a single fscked-up gestalt!) trumps integrity, dignity, humanity or compassion. The U.S. isn't as screwed up as the Middle-East, but there are religious idiots working hard to get us there!
I have to agree that Interpol's complicity in this is shocking and bodes poorly for the global state of Human Rights.
Re:Remember kids (Score:5, Insightful)
Do you only count court-ordered execution? If not, a doctor was shot in the US in 2009 by anti-abortionists.
You mean are acts of violence by fundamentalist individuals, subsequently prosecuted and punished severely for the crime, count the same as religious persecution institutionalized by government fiat?
Hmmm... yea, sure. Exactly the same. DAMN you, Theocratic religious tyrannical US government!!!
Re:Green Energy (Score:5, Insightful)
Let's bankrupt ourselves like Spain on the green energy=jobs wild goose chase.
Yeah its not like the western world has already bankrupted itself with the "if we make a few people billionaires for wearing a suit and talking a lot, the rest will trickle down"
oh wait..
Re:Malaysia is Muslim (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:But Malaysia is moderate muslim.... (Score:5, Insightful)
But why should we?
This isn't a person's development we're talking about, where we can dismiss it by going "oh, poor Islam, his brain just isn't fully developed yet. Give him some time."
This is an organization who has had a dozen lifetimes just in your 600 year timeframe to watch and to see how things work without being insecure, murderous pricks, and that's not to mention the however many more lifetimes they have had to "mature" to begin with. At this point there is little to say but that they are actively rejecting the concept.
This is not a defense of Christianity, nor is it some ridiculous finger pointing as to who started it; I think all religions are a pox upon the world. But the idea that Islam somehow should get an extra 600 years to find itself before being criticized as extremist or intolerant is ludicrous. It's not the middle ages anymore.
Re:Green Energy (Score:5, Insightful)
Well-regulated nuclear power is green energy, in my book.
Re:Stop buying oil from these dipshits (Score:5, Insightful)
And stop selling weapons to these dipshits. [nytimes.com]
Re:Stop buying oil from these dipshits (Score:3, Insightful)
Wow. Just Wow. In 2012 you want to defend these camel molesting savages with political relativism.
It's probably a little too deep for you to grasp, but there are some ideas among the civilized world that are so fundamental we call them "human rights". Everyone who is human enjoys them no matter what they worship or which piece of earth they occupy.
Among those "human rights" is the right not to be beheaded when speaking your mind. Even you benefit from these rights - that's why you get to say stupid shit on the internet without fear of having your head ripped off. To execute, or even to prosecute, anyone for tweeting about anything at all is an abomination and unacceptable to civilized human being.
Re:A second just Justice.... Please (Score:5, Insightful)
Holy shit. This is a flagrant abuse of Interpol. It should result in both Saudi Arabia and Malaysia being completely kicked out immediately, and ideally blocked from issuing any extradition requests or international warrants whatsoever.
Re:Green Energy (Score:5, Insightful)
Yeah, it can't be by fracking or nuclear power. No, we have to rely on green energy.
Fracking pollutes the ground water, and stirs up and softens clay... certain types of clay, such as leda clay, are particularly vulnerable to these seismic disturbances, and can lead to landslides and sinkholes. I have yet to hear a story about how Fracking is good for the environment.
Nuclear energy, while it can be done safely if you're in the right part of the world, still leaves the chance for disaster. And I'm not just talking about Chernobyl, 3 Mile Island, or Fukushima-type disaster, I'm also talking about the dozens of other partial meltdowns that have happened. While on the whole, nuclear power does have a very good safety record, it also produces waste matter that has to be stored for decades before it can be recycled safely, and while I don't like pulling terrorism into a discussion like this, can you imagine the kind of fallout (literally) that could happen if somebody hijacked a shipment of untreated nuclear waste?
Nobody who's sane is saying that we should be stopping all fossil fuel use and go 100% solar/wind as of tomorrow, and damn the consequences. But I don't think it's unreasonable to try to shift our use to energy production methods that don't cause damage to the environment, and that will still be around for our grandchildren. It'll be a gradual shift, of course, but it's naive to think we can continue with our current patterns for another hundred years. Switching to renewable sources can be done, though: Iceland is already running 80% of their grid from renewable sources (mainly hydro and geothermal). And if you'd like a larger area/population to compare with, Quebec is mostly Hydro, too, with renewable energy sources outnumbering non-renewable generators by 60:1. Mostly, it's just a question of deciding which types of renewable energy are most appropriate for the area, and building that type of generator, but industry doesn't have the will for it yet.
Except, of course, countries like Spain and Denmark, where the government has taken an active role in the development of these technologies. There is no reason that the US demand for electricity can't be served by 100% renewable sources, if you're smart about where you put them, and what kinds you use.
Re:A religion of peace? (Score:4, Insightful)
What are you babbling about? As a Muslim, I know that Muhammad, peace be upon him, died 1400 years ago, while God never dies. You still say Islam puts him above God; the Being who created all of the galaxy and existence?
Look, if Muhammad were alive today, he would not stand for such an injustice being done in his name. He was known to have people spit in his face and physically assault him, and he forgave them and spared them from punishment. What the Saudi dictatorship is doing is quite the opposite of Islam and islamic history.
Re:Remember kids (Score:5, Insightful)
No, you don't. You might think you do, but you don't. Everyone thinks THEIR religion is the exception. You aren't unique, just wrong. Even those that take atheism so serious to the point of it being "a religion" (ie: Leninism or militant anti-christianism) are just as bad.
The problem lies in having a belief system, not the content of the belief systems. Beliefs system don't require facts, so facts can't persuade them, no matter how obvious or proven the fact.
It is possible to believe in a higher power without following a belief system. It is possible to think that science can prove that some kind of "god" started the universe. You might be right or wrong, I don't claim to know, but this isn't the same as "religion". Religion, where you are TOLD what to think and discouraged from thinking freely, IS inherently bad, whether you or the mods understand it or not.
Re:Stop buying oil from these dipshits (Score:4, Insightful)
While I agree with you morally, we can't have a "civilized" society as we know it without the things we have from other countries at Walmart prices.
The GP is spot on. We have too many problems to sort out before we can even think about pushing our influence to "better the world." Right now, we have our own religious nut-bags trying to run the government here. As soon as we can get over our own God addiction, we can start preaching to the rest of the world to grow the hell up.
The world would be a better place if we could get over the multitudes of self-interested parties trying to protect their wealth while destroying the world. But if you want to preach, you had better start convincing the foot soldiers who make it all possible to stop serving "the bad guys." Problem with that is if you were to convince the US foot soldiers to stop supporting the bad guys, there will be some OTHER really bad guys who have some guys you can't reach to convince will come over here and start pushing their will all over us.
The fact is, we have some really bad people on all sides playing the same games. They ALL need to stop at once bcause the moment one ceases aggression, someone else will come along to take over.
It's one thing to boycott products which are not necessary. It's another to boycott the world's life blood. There's more riding on this than you can possibly imagine or want to consider. Anyway, I'm glad you aren't making decisions.