Senator Rand Paul Detained By the TSA 941
cervesaebraciator writes "Senator Rand Paul (R-KY) has been detained by the TSA in Tennessee for refusing a pat-down. Apparently an anomaly appeared when he received the full body scan. While he offered to undergo the body scan once more, he was informed that only a pat-down would be sufficient to clear him. He has since been detained and the story is developing."
Re:Well, there goes *that* heroin shipment (Score:5, Insightful)
This is a good thing, the more awareness about the TSA from lawmakers will bring about a much needed reigning in.
-nB
Standard Procedure (Score:5, Insightful)
I know we all hate the TSA, but under the existing rule structure, his detention should not be surprising or treated with contempt. The alternative is that the TSA screener decides on his/her own who gets to walk through without a pat down if the scan shows up something suspicious. I'm not commenting on the overall efficacy or "correctness" of the procedure; if we're going to have rules, they should be enforced fairly and consistently. That said, I am in favor of some types of profiling, but I don't think being an elected official gives you any sort of waiver. They've already proved that they can't be trusted.
Re:Oh dear. (Score:4, Insightful)
So, will some TSA "agent" lose their job or is Rand Paul not big enough fish to throw that kind of weight around?
Even if he isn't, his dad probably is.
Proud to have voted for him (Score:2, Insightful)
I'm proud to have voted for him. I will continue to vote for him in the future. We need more senators like him who care about civil liberties, who listen to their constituents, and who understand that he is there working for me, and not for corporations.
More power to him.
Re:Well, there goes *that* heroin shipment (Score:4, Insightful)
Unfortunately I bet most other congresscritters whip out the 'shall not be obstructed on their way to and from congress' (paraphrased) clause of the Constitution and just bypass TSA's checkpoints altogether.
We are too politically correct... (Score:1, Insightful)
When the TSA or police use lots of racial or religious profiling everyone is up in arms about them being bigoted or prejudicial. "Oh they are picking on people who look Middle Eastern" "they are picking on the blacks" and whatnot. So then the TSA checks everyone without discriminating at all to show that anyone, even a senator, has to be groped and scanned before boarding because that senator might be a terrorist. Now the TSA has to be an equal opportunity offender and overly check people that are clearly not terrorists for the sake of equality.
Let the TSA and police do their jobs without having to equally check everyone so we can pretend like terrorists don't all come from the same background. Racial profiling might not be politically correct but it works. If we are wasting time harassing senators who are obviously not going to hijack the plane then something is obviously wrong.
Is a senator a terrorist? Probably not. This isn't Homeland. Are the five guys with brown skin with box cutters and mace terrorists? Yes probably but let's let them get on the plane. Is the family with grandparents smuggling cocaine in their luggage? Probably not. Are the two nervous looking Columbian men clinging to their luggage hiding something? Probably. But the TSA for political correctness has to check randomly and not profile which wastes time and resources and allows guys like Richard Reid the shoebomber into planes while Rand Paul is denied a flight.
Re:knee metal from previous injury (Score:5, Insightful)
In this case, being 'confrontational' when standing up for your rights is certainly not a bad thing.
Civil Disobedience (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Oh dear. (Score:5, Insightful)
Guess which branch funds the TSA and ask that question again.
Re:knee metal from previous injury (Score:4, Insightful)
Hanlon's razor : Never attribute to malice (Paul) that which is adequately explained by stupidity (TSA).
I like this (Score:5, Insightful)
I think both Rand and his father are nut jobs. No, let me rephrase that - I think they have a very simplistic, but consistent, core values from which they derive a series of logical positions which vary from downright practical to socially unworkable. It's that latter part that makes them nutty. I like their logical approach; I am disappointed in their finesse and (in)ability to understand practical application of social policy.
Still, this is how things get changed, and if anyone is going to give the middle finger to our new establishment - and get away with it - it's likely to be someone like the Pauls. I'm surprised he was even required to go through the screening process; I was under the impression that members of congress - those that don't skip it entirely by flying private - would essentially be waved through or would have been provided an alternate entry point.
I presume he was flying business or first class, and was not subjected to the long queue.
Re:Well, there goes *that* heroin shipment (Score:5, Insightful)
Except that your paraphrasing fails to uphold the word or the meaning of the clause you refer to. If they could invoke that clause so easily, they could justify ignoring traffic lights too. In fact, that clause only provides limited protection from arrest. Being denied access to a secured area is very different from being arrested.
Re:Not enough bias? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:So what they've done is... (Score:5, Insightful)
Problem is, now they've given him an anecdote. And anecdotal evidence is quite convincing in politics, even if it's logically invalid.
Obligatory (Score:2, Insightful)
The last remnants of the Old Republic have been swept away...
-Grand Moff Tarkin
Re:Well, there goes *that* heroin shipment (Score:5, Insightful)
That is exactly what happened in this case. Paul was turned away, not held. SOP: anyone that refuses a pat-down is free to leave. Our rights haven't been eroded quite that far yet.
Re:We are too politically correct... (Score:2, Insightful)
Better idea: How about we all stop acting like cowards, stop with the pointless over the top airport security, and accept that yes, there is an absurdly small chance that of dying of cancer or a heart attack you earned by stuffing your diabetic American maw with too much food, you stand the absurdly rare chance of dying to a terrorist. Americans seem brave enough to commit mass suicide by eating McDonalds food every day... maybe they can muster up the courage to get on an airplane knowing that they stand a 1 in a few million chance of dying to a terrorist.
We don't need extra freedom fondles and pr0n scanners. We just need Americans to stop acting like a bunch of cowards.
Re:Well, there goes *that* heroin shipment (Score:3, Insightful)
Um, except that isn't what happened. He was on his way to speak for the March of Life, not to participate in any sort of congressional proceedings. I don't like the TSA's procedures, but this situation was handled exactly the way it should have been handled, and there is absolutely no reason that the law should have given Paul the ability to bypass the safety requirements enforced for everyone else.
Re:Well, there goes *that* heroin shipment (Score:5, Insightful)
No.
No, No, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO!!!!!.
Standing up for your Rights is NOT "weird".
It's people like you who are contributing to the downfall of America.
Re:Well, there goes *that* heroin shipment (Score:5, Insightful)
This smacks of "if you're not a terrorist you shouldn't mind not having privacy."
Sorry, but no.
Re:Well, there goes *that* heroin shipment (Score:3, Insightful)
OK, I looked it up. The exact phrase is 'privileged from arrest'. 'Arrest' has several meanings. One is what the police do when hauling one off to jail. It can also just be a more generic meaning of stopping someone, and I'm pretty sure that's the more important definition. The purpose of this clause is to keep political opponents from preventing representatives getting to official meetings, not to keep them out of jail for legit crimes.
Re:Both Pauls Have Been Trying to Do Just That (Score:2, Insightful)
Who mod'ed that up? (Score:2, Insightful)
Kaczynski.
McVeigh
By your "logic", the TSA was doing it correctly. They were checking white males because white males had previously engaged in terrorism.
No it does not.
And two people mod'ed up that post. Why?
Re:Well, there goes *that* heroin shipment (Score:2, Insightful)
OK, I looked it up. The exact phrase is 'privileged from arrest'. 'Arrest' has several meanings. One is what the police do when hauling one off to jail. It can also just be a more generic meaning of stopping someone, and I'm pretty sure that's the more important definition. The purpose of this clause is to keep political opponents from preventing representatives getting to official meetings, not to keep them out of jail for legit crimes.
Arrest has one meaning - stoppage.
You can be arrested in many ways. Being detained is a form of being arrested. They just call it being detained so people don't see the word "arrested" and start to think they have rights.
Just like taxes, fees, and fines.
Re:Unconstitutional to Arrest a Congressman (Score:4, Insightful)
There is no difference. If you are not free to go, you are under arrest. That's the definition of arrest:
Authoritarians like to play this game where they call things by different words and pretend that they're not the same. Don't fall for it.
Re:This is a Huge Violation of the Constitution (Score:5, Insightful)
Yeah, except for the part where he was. He wouldn't have missed the flight if he wasn't detained. A detention is merely a euphemism for arrest that allows the cops to circumvent your constitutional rights. Therefore, he was arrested. QED.
Re:Both Pauls Have Been Trying to Do Just That (Score:5, Insightful)
The Senators and Representatives . . . shall in all Cases, except Treason, Felony and Breach of the Peace, be privileged from Arrest during their Attendance at the Session of their respective Houses, and in going to and returning from the same.
Now, I suppose you could make an argument that this wasn't technically an "arrest" but the point of that clause is to make sure that elected officials aren't prevented from doing their duty. The TSA quite clearly violated that part of the constitution by unlawfully detaining senator Paul.
Re:Both Pauls Have Been Trying to Do Just That (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:According to TSA, Paul was not detained (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Well, there goes *that* heroin shipment (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Well, there goes *that* heroin shipment (Score:5, Insightful)
Should have been counting those things. Treat them like they are what they are: explosives with the detonator built in. I've never misplaced a cartridge.
Re:Well, there goes *that* heroin shipment (Score:5, Insightful)
The fact that he would rather leave and rebook his flight than take a pat down is a bit weird.
Are you serious?!?! It's no wonder our country is in such sad shape, if this mindset is any reflection of the attitudes of the American people. I don't even know where to start dissecting this comment, but I'll give it a shot, anyway.
First, when faced with a choice of believing that a senator is doing something illegal or that the TSA is attempting to harass one of the few critics who actually has any kind of power over the agency, you side with TSA? Second, when someone actually shows some backbone and tells the TSA where it can shove it's (illegal) pat-downs, you think it's weird that he takes a moral high ground? Third, are you truly so focused on your goals that you are willing to give up the rights guaranteed by the Constitution to achieve them -- even if that goal is simply arriving at your intended destination at your intended arrival time, rather than taking a longer route rather than be a good sheep as you pass through a TSA check point?
I acknowledge the possibility that you consider the pat-downs less onerous and less of a violation of civil rights than I do. And if that's the case, then it may truly seem like a simple choice between a pat-down and rebooking your flight for a later time. However, not all of us feel that way. Apparently Sen. Paul believes more like me than like you (possibly) do. That does not, however, suggest that Sen. Paul actually had anything to hide, nor does it suggest that he was up to anything weirder (i.e., "more suspicious") than taking a stand for something he obviously believes in.
I also acknowledge that trying to decide whether a senator or the TSA is less corrupt is rather like arguing whether a pirhana or a tiger shark is more voracious. However, despite the fact that I think that most politicians are at least somewhat corrupt, I rather doubt that any of them are likely to smuggle weapons through an airport checkpoint so that they can hijack or blow up an airplane.
Re:Well, there goes *that* heroin shipment (Score:4, Insightful)
And the government doesn't have the right to do "searches" that contribute nothing to security. One of the scanner makers admitted that their equipment wouldn't have caught Captain Underpants. Top Israeli aviation security expert Rafi Sela called the scanners "expensive and useless".
Re:Well, there goes *that* heroin shipment (Score:5, Insightful)
I can't remember who came up with this thought experiment:
- How many lives are being saved by the current system?
- How many lives would be saved if there were no security measures at all, but instead free blood pressure screenings at the airport?
Re:Well, there goes *that* heroin shipment (Score:4, Insightful)
Well, at least the TSA 'may' have done this to the wrong person finally...
The "wrong person" would probably be one of the ardent supporters of giving the TSA all the power they desire, not a borderline-libertarian who probably already has a list of profanity-laden things that "TSA" stands for.
Re:Well, there goes *that* heroin shipment (Score:5, Insightful)
We don't have a right to fly in commercial aircraft without getting our freak on with TSA only because we have allowed the government to get away with it. The 4th Amendment says the government may not perform an "unreasonable" search without a court approving it, and even in that case the search is for specific things on specific persons in specific locations -- it does NOT apply to "everything every traveler brings to any airport anywhere in the nation -- or even overseas, if the airliner is traveling to the U.S.". Every court in the country would throw out a request for a warrant that was that broad. You can perhaps make the point that a metal detector is not "unreasonable"...but if you seriously think that the crap that's been happening in airports for the last 14 months is "reasonable", well, I hope you've enjoyed the Kool-Aid.
Re:We are too politically correct... (Score:4, Insightful)
Let the TSA and police do their jobs without having to equally check everyone so we can pretend like terrorists don't all come from the same background.
How about we let the TSA fuck right off and we leave the issue to previous security measures augmented with secured pilot cabins and increased air marshal activity?
Strong defender of civil liberties (Score:2, Insightful)
What was he catching a plane for? A "pro-life" rally. So much for civil liberties. I guess they're only important if you're a white man.
Re:Well, there goes *that* heroin shipment (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes, walking past the sign that says "anyone passing this point is subject to search" is waiving his fourth amendment rights.
If I put a sign on my lawn that says "anyone passing this sign can be detained indefinitely" does that make it so?
Re:Well, there goes *that* heroin shipment (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Well, there goes *that* heroin shipment (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes we do....
And let me explain to you why we are wrong. If an airline made such decision, it could do so. And it would suffer the consequences of capitalism; go out of business due to a lack of passengers as another airline would offer "ball groping free flights" (probably Southwest).
However, the unconstitutional mandate requiring such of all airlines is just that. This is not the private airlines making an uncoerced decision. Rather it is a mandated and coerced affect by the government in violation of the government's Constitution.
So yes, I have the right to choose to fly on an airline that does not grope my balls, and the government's interference in preventing airlines from offering such a service is illegal.
Were it not illegal, someone would have already started a new airline to offer just that, ball groping free travel and would be selling more tickets than all the other airlines combined.
Re:Both Pauls Have Been Trying to Do Just That (Score:5, Insightful)
"Flip flopping" just means changing your mind, right? Changing your mind should only be viewed negatively when it is done with dishonest intent - to deceive and manipulate others, or to act against one's own core beliefs. We live in a complicated world, and there are genuine, complex issues that educated adults can disagree on. The ability to comprehend and reason from multiple points of view, and modify your own position accordingly, ought to be seen as a strength rather than a weakness.
"When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, sir?"
Re:Well, there goes *that* heroin shipment (Score:5, Insightful)
"Arrest" is legally defined to mean restraint under color of authority. He was restrained under color of authority from utilizing a common carrier. That is, the TSA represented claimed legal authority and physically prevented him from proceeding to the Senate for a session.
The fact that they later allowed him passage and he was able to book a different flight has no bearing on their original action.
The purpose of the clause was originally to prevent the interference by the Executive branch with the Legislative branch doing their job. Arresting MPs and legislative members before going to disputed votes was -- and still remains, in some parts of the world -- a common tactic that this clause was explicitly meant to address.
As for the threat to people on the aircraft. The TSA is there to prevent physical threats of violence, not address ideological disputes.
Exactly what do you propose replacing Congress with and when will you have a draft of your Constitutional Amendment available for review?
Vacation in US? No, thanks! (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Well, there goes *that* heroin shipment (Score:5, Insightful)
Yeah, but even if accidental, shouldn't someone who might accidentally take explosive compounds on an airplane possibly be screened more closely to avoid a repeat performance? Just because it was a stupid mistake doesn't mean that it doesn't show a lack of responsibility or a gross amount of stupidity that might deserve further scrutiny in the future?
Re:Well, there goes *that* heroin shipment (Score:5, Insightful)
There are certainly far better ways to protect the nation and its freedoms.
Don't you mean "There are certainly far better ways to protect the nation than taking away its freedoms?"
Re:Well, there goes *that* heroin shipment (Score:5, Insightful)
Karma? Yes, I do have some to burn...
As do I, but I don't waste it trolling. You not only have no right to safety, there is no such thing as safety. When my safety interferes with your rights, your rights trump. What makes your comment even worse is that there have been 3,000 deaths from terrorism in the US in the 21st century, while 45,000 people die on the highways each and every year. It's been over two years since anybody has died on an airliner over US soil.
They should spend that Transportation Safety Administration money on safer highways.
Re:Well, there goes *that* heroin shipment (Score:5, Insightful)
The beauty of it is that by flying airliners into buildings the 9/11 terrorists effectively ended hijacking. Now when someone tries to take over an aircraft the passengers leap over seats to attack them. It used to be they flew you somewhere, might kill one or two people during negotiations, then eventually it all settled out maybe with a gun battle and the majority of people on board made it home a few days late. Now, knowing the fuckwads are gonna fly you into a building, it's in your best interest to rip the fuckers head off or die trying.
Re:Well, there goes *that* heroin shipment (Score:5, Insightful)
That's always been my view as well. The best post-9/11 security measure has been psychological. Every passenger is psychologically trained to refuse to believe they will land safely if they 'cooperate' with hijackers. That was the only real weapon a hijacker had, not boxcutters, not a gun, but the illusory promise that all will be fine if everyone just cooperates. That weapon, the psychological stranglehold, has been screened out, and that "solves" the problem of 9/11 ever repeating again. Case in point, flight 93. It never flew into a building. All it took was some passengers to have learned that the hijackers will not release them safely.
Re:Civil Disobedience (Score:3, Insightful)
As a pro-lifer, I simply believe in the civil liberties of every unborn child.
Please don't assume that the "pro-choice" side is the only side for upholding civil liberties. "Your rights end where my rights begin." It comes down to a difference in opinion about whose rights are more important; I believe the unborn child's right to life is a liberty far more important than the mother's right to a convenient life.
(Not trying to start a flame war. I understand and accept that sometimes, it's about more than just convenience.)