Indonesian Man Faces Five Years For Atheist Facebook Post 907
An anonymous reader writes "31-year-old Alexander Aan faces a maximum prison sentence of five years for posting 'God does not exist' on Facebook. The civil servant was attacked and beaten by an angry mob of dozens who entered his government office at the Dharmasraya Development Planning Board on Wednesday. The Indonesian man was taken into protective police custody Friday since he was afraid of further physical assault."
This is terrible (Score:5, Insightful)
It's one thing persecuting people for their religion but persecuting atheists is going too far.
Nothing like a beating to make a believer. (Score:5, Insightful)
31-year-old Alexander Aan faces a maximum prison sentence of five years for posting âoeGod does not existâ on Facebook. The civil servant was attacked and beaten by an angry mob of dozens who entered his government office at the Dharmasraya Development Planning Board on Wednesday. The Indonesian man was taken into protective police custody Friday since he was afraid of further physical assault.
The posting was made on a Facebook Page titled Ateis Minang (Minang Atheist), which Aan created. At the time of writing, it had over 1,700 Likes. Aanâ(TM)s posting has been removed, but supporters on the Page are urging police to release him.
I wonder if they were trying to make a believer out of him or just needed to re-assure themselves that they are right and he is wrong. Theirs must be a merciful god, a god of great compassion.
Atheism is a violation of Indonesian law under the founding principles of the country. Indonesia, the worldâ(TM)s most populous Muslim nation, recognises the right to practice six religions in total: Islam, Protestant, Catholic, Hindu, Buddhism and Confucianism. Atheism is, however, illegal. According to Indonesian criminal law, anyone who tries to stop others believing in a faith could face up to five years in jail for blasphemy.
- further proving that governments are inherently evil. [slashdot.org]
Re:He deserves it (Score:5, Insightful)
This is what you get with religious rule.
Todays witchhunts... (Score:3, Insightful)
...are on the "non-believers".
Religion is the most dangerous thing facing our population, not overpopulation. They all claim to be peaceful, but criticize them - and you'll see their true nature.
Re:The future is already here (Score:5, Insightful)
"If God existed, he would teach you compassion." Seriously, play to win.
Re:He deserves it (Score:5, Insightful)
Only goes to prove that god isn't real (Score:4, Insightful)
when the religious people kill you because you say it.
The real problem here (Score:0, Insightful)
I'm posting AC because people feel some need to justify Islam for some reason and blame the poster for calling a spade a spade. I have no use for any religion at all.
This for Telling the Truth (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Nothing like a beating to make a believer. (Score:3, Insightful)
When was the last time that religious followers needed a self-consistent, non-contradictory, logical message?
Besides, Buddhism does teach bizarre things about rebirth and such, and as an atheist I don't understand how that makes any sense at all.
Re:Yet another 3rd world reaction (Score:5, Insightful)
Yet another 3rd world reaction to the eternal pornographic issue - my deity is larger than yours.
Reminds me of one of my favorite Carl Sagan quotes:
How is it that hardly any major religion has looked at science and concluded, 'This is better than we thought! The Universe is much bigger than our prophets said, grander, more subtle, more elegant'? Instead they say, 'No, no, no! My god is a little god, and I want him to stay that way.' A religion, old or new, that stressed the magnificence of the Universe as revealed by modern science might be able to draw forth reserves of reverence and awe hardly tapped by the conventional faiths.
Even the religions with science in the name ("Christian Science" and "Scientology") are profoundly against freedom of inquiry, except where it is used to glorify their mythology. This story kind of backs up the whole "our god is a little god, we must coddle it" approach.
Ryan Fenton
... are reversed into tomorrows witch hunts (Score:4, Insightful)
...are on the "non-believers".
Religion is the most dangerous thing facing our population, not overpopulation. They all claim to be peaceful, but criticize them - and you'll see their true nature.
Do you realize that you're the first step on a dangerous road? Your generalizations will lead to believers being the next group hunted. I'm an atheist myself, but stating that religion is the most dangerous problem faced by society is both ridiculously naive and dangerous. There are believers who are a problem, but that does not mean that all religious types are nut cases.
Re:He deserves it (Score:3, Insightful)
+1 just my thought.
There's only a quantitative difference between the US and Indonesia. In many areas of the US you can not be elected to public office if you won't swear on the Bible.
Re:He deserves it (Score:3, Insightful)
You probably haven't lived in Indonesia, have you?
Re:... Not really...but... (Score:4, Insightful)
Reverse psychology - you're right, it's equally dangerous to be pointing fingers at a minority, but religion is far from minority, in fact - it's directly responsible for wars all over the planet.
I'm all okay with religion as long as people don't take it to extremes, but history has proven over and over again that if you chose belief over facts - aka religion vs science, then you're bound to lose, no matter what the outcome would be as long as the outcome is anything but peaceful.
And history shows - people DO take things to an extreme. You don't see a bunch of scientist raging out on the streets over some cartoon-drawings, burning down embassies, cars and peoples homes?
Re:The real problem here (Score:5, Insightful)
The problem is that Islamic civilization was not always as you describe, nor is it even now. At one time, many Islamic societies were far more advanced and open than their Western European counterparts. What you're saying makes about as much sense as condemning Christianity based on what you find wrong in Catholicism.
Re:This is terrible (Score:5, Insightful)
It's one thing persecuting people for their religion but persecuting atheists is going too far.
A small minority of 'different' people in your community often makes people uncomfortable when part of the culture is professing just how right and good it is to agree and identify with the majority. When that minority attempts to become vocal they are by definition wrong and therefore it is justifiable to punish them. If all you have to prove that you're living your life correctly is the assertion by yourself and those around you that it is so any argument against what you believe is dangerous. Certainly authority figures (from politicians to parents) won't allow dissenting opinions to spread, like some horrible disease.
People aren't persecuted for their religion. They are persecuted because their religion (or ethnicity or social status or etc.) is different from the majority of those around them. Group-think and ignorance will attack what it doesn't understand or can't control in whatever form it takes.
One could argue that, historically, atheism is the most persecuted belief system still in practice. It would explain the relatively small proportion of the population that atheism makes up, as well as why that small proportion is spread throughout the world with no great central region to call home.
Re:Nothing like a beating to make a believer. (Score:5, Insightful)
What do you mean? Like the messages in the bibles are somehow self-consistent? The old and the new testaments? What are abominations? The entire creation mythology? Noah's arc? Miracles? Bizarre ideas on what is salvation and why it's needed? Is salvation really about Jesus or is it about moral codes? Is it about doing something or just believing in something?
How about the entire idea of confessions and getting forgiveness from church workers for pretty much any transgression, including murder? Mass murder?
Virgin birth. Resurrection. Incarnation. ONE god or three? Believing in things that don't have any actual proof of any kind, believing in things that are shown false by science, justifying continuation of believing even when proven false.
Faith does not require logic and it does not require consistency, it certainly does not require understanding falsifiability or requiring it.
Faith in fact requires complete abandonment of principles by which we make discoveries and by which we change our circumstance, and that's what faith is SUPPOSED to be, because if it was possible to PROVE a god, it wouldn't require faith.
And if god requires faith without any proof, and if somehow proof can be obtained, then isn't the purpose of having faith defeated then? And doesn't it mean in religion that in fact proof can never exist (and in science we know it cannot exist, because goalposts can never be reached, and proving a negative is not exactly what we can do).
Anyway, I am not trying to convince anybody in anything in terms of believing or not believing here, that's not the purpose of the story though it's easy to degenerate this story into that kind of a discussion.
I suggest you don't do that, stay on topic, and the topic is: government is evil and government mixing up with religion is even more evil and individual will be crashed by government that takes away power of choices from individual.
Of-course in all societies there are orthodox believers, and some of them in this story came to beat up this poor shmuck, who actually worked for the government apparently, but didn't understand the law there.
If God existed, he could fight his own battles. (Score:5, Insightful)
I will never comprehend the "if you don't believe, I'll beat the shit out of you" mentality.
Re:He deserves it (Score:5, Insightful)
Sure, with the minor difference that your imaginary atheist lynch mob does not in fact exist.
Re:Atheism isn't a belief system (Score:2, Insightful)
Atheism isn't a belief system, but the rejection or lack of one.
Exactly, just as an empty set is not actually a set...oh, wait...
The difference between us and them (Score:5, Insightful)
In America, you can voice your dissent, you can call people garbage, and you can do so for any reason -- even if you are calling them garbage for putting an end to a blatant constitutional infraction. The constitution protects the rights of atheists and religious people of all varieties equally, and that includes the right to be rude, insulting, and to hate the very constitution that provides you with those protections.
Re:Nothing like a beating to make a believer. (Score:5, Insightful)
It's a big part of why American churches are so dedicated to fighting homosexuality. In their view, if two men have sex together then the whole of American society is tainted by the presence of such sinners. This cannot be tolerated. In Indonesia, the same reasoning results in an angry mob believing it is their duty to ensure their society is not tainted in the eyes of their own God by the presence of blasphemers.
Re:abortion is legitimate question (Score:3, Insightful)
Absolutely. I am pro life. I am alive, and I consider life to be one of the most amazing things in the universe, and, as a thing that is alive, I tend to strongly support life, out of pure self interest. On the other hand, I think woman should have the right to abort their pregnancies. The reason this assholes call themselves pro-life is because nobody will rationally say they are "anti life".
Re:He deserves it (Score:5, Insightful)
You can be critical of others without getting violent. Dawkins is critical of religion, sure, but publishing a book is not even close to beating someone up over a comment on Facebook.
Re:He deserves it (Score:3, Insightful)
"You never hear in the news, "200 killed today when Atheist rebels took heavy shelling from the Agnostic stronghold in the north"." - Doug Stanhope
One side is indeed, worse.
Re:Nothing like a beating to make a believer. (Score:2, Insightful)
I think it is perfectly true for the variable being equal to 0
Bert
Re:Atheism isn't a belief system (Score:5, Insightful)
How does a belief that there is no God not count as a belief system?
Well, first of all, atheism is not "a belief that there is no God," it is a lack of belief in any gods at all (for some reason, Christians insist that there is only one deity anyone could believe in). Someone who had never heard of any deities in their entire life would be an atheist: people must be taught to follow religions or believe in gods.
That being said, atheism is not a system at all. I am an atheist, but I still practice my religion -- I simply do not believe that deities exist, because there is no evidence to support that notion. Yet I still keep traditions, moral beliefs, and philosophies that emerged from my religion -- that is the "system." I am not alone in this -- it is more common in my religion than people would like to admit, and I suspect that it happens in other religions as well.
Re:abortion is legitimate question (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Atheism isn't a belief system (Score:1, Insightful)
Oh, how I wish my mod points hadn't just expired. Mod^^^^^. Listen up slashdot nerds, we're doing symbolic logic. Let's call "god does not exist" proposition P.
* Atheism: the value of P is "true"
* Agnosticism: the value of P is "unknown"
Thus "atheism" is by definition a metaphysical belief system (or at least a component of one), because it affirms at least one particular propositional statement about metaphysics. Defining atheism as a lack of a belief system is merely a convenient way of using weasel-words to avoid having to defend the propositional statements contained in one's position.
"The misuse of language induces evil in the soul" -Socrates
Re:abortion is legitimate question (Score:5, Insightful)
Remember that "pro-choice" means pro-choice for the woman, whereas pro-life means pro-choice for the human which will develop if the embryo not destroyed. There's nothing inherently correct about believing that a woman must or must not look after a fertilised embyro inside her, just as there's nothing inherently correct or incorrect about believing parents must look after their 8 year old kid.
The problem with the above logic is this.. even in this day and age, life from conception to birth is still has a really high morbidity rate. That is, women miscarry all the time for reasons that have nothing to do with abortion, and often times aren't even recorded. Sometimes the body determines that the embryo is not viable. Sometimes the embryo has a flaw which kills it early in the process. Sometimes it's late in the process. Sometimes random chance puts a perfectly viable embryo into a situation where it just grabbed onto the wrong spot (ectopic pregnancies), putting itself and the mother at risk. Post-birth, the morbidity rate drops significantly as the child's physiology isn't so dependent on a delicate balance between mother and child.
This is a problem that has no good solution. That there is a ton of controversy around it only reflects that fact. I'm pretty sure that even most pro-choice folks would carry the opinion that abortions should not be a replacement for responsible behavior, and that we'd all like to see them performed as little as possible. Mandating that they cannot be done for any reason whatsoever places those prospective mothers into servitude at the whim of a potential child which may not even make it to term, which may kill the mother, or which may inflict years of torment on an unfortunate victim of rape. The idea of banning abortions completely, or the current tactic of defining a fertilized egg as a legal person, is a problem for women because this natural process is about as high risk a venture as is ever carried out. Flexibility is a must when there is this much risk involved, if you value human life at all.
For my mind, though, I just can't stand the hypocrisy of (generally) the same folks crying for less government interference in their lives, while going on how you should live by their morals (injecting government into someone else's life). Can't have it both ways.
Re:Yet another 3rd world reaction (Score:4, Insightful)
Being a catholic doesn't preclude you from writing a good science textbook. It doesn't help, though.
And the people who wrote these textbooks have my admiration, as much as anyone who spreads knowledge and popularizes science.
Re:abortion is legitimate question (Score:5, Insightful)
In a similar fashion, science shows precisely when abortion is no longer ethical, and it is when the baby develops a substantial part of its central nervous system.
Science may show the mental capacity of the fetus and it's ability to feel etc however by no means does this show when it is no longer ethical.
Ethics deal with morals, morals are generally based off values/goals, both of those can be arbitrary. Sure certain morals can convey a survival benefit etc, but survival itself could be considered a goal. Morals are a human construct, not an inherent aspect of the universe like things such as gravity etc.
And so the instant rebuttle to 'x is ethical' is generally, to whose ethics?
Re:abortion is legitimate question (Score:4, Insightful)
"A substantial part" is not precise. And if that "substantial part" is equivalent to, for instance, a full-grown dog, do dogs then also gain human rights? Scientifically speaking, of course.
Re:abortion is legitimate question (Score:3, Insightful)
Ok, so I'm anti-life. Actually I am, this planet is overpopulated as it is, no need to increase the human biomass.
Let's face it, people. Whether I live, or you, doesn't really matter in the general sense, does it? Sure, you're happy to be alive, as am I, and there are probably a few people who won't be all that happy when we cease to exist, and not only because they have to borrow a suit for the funeral. But else? Nobody gives half a fuck whether you live. Or whether I do.
So why the heck should I care if someone I don't know has an abortion? Does it affect me? No. Could it affect me if it was cast into a law? Since I'm not a fetus anymore, and neither have the appropriate parts to have one inside me, no. Neither actively nor passively.
So why the heck should I have any say in whether someone has the right to choose to have an abortion?
Re:He deserves it (Score:2, Insightful)
it was called the Cultural Revolution.
Re:He deserves it (Score:4, Insightful)
Do you have any actual evidence of that? Lynch mobs in the US peaked in the '20s or there abouts, they were almost completely "Christian" and they would lynch people for being black or Jewish.
Now the rates of such lynchings have gone down significantly since then and rates of atheism have gone up since then. We can't conclude anything at all from that, but it's kind of an interesting to keep in mind. Christians in the US do not have a monopoly on morality.
How to take down a religion (Score:4, Insightful)
The conventional wisdom is that it's not possible to take down a major religion. The US, though, did it once - after WWII, the US Army took down State Shinto [wikipedia.org] in Japan.
It's worth understanding how that was done. It took not only a military victory, but a determined large-scale occupation, with far more occupying troops than the US used in Iraq. It didn't prohibit worship. It pulled the plug on public funding of Shinto. It eliminated any political power wielded by religious figures. Separation of church and state was forcibly imposed on Japan. It worked.
Re:Atheism isn't a belief system (Score:4, Insightful)
Exactly, just how Atheists and Catholics share the same belief system.
Atheists and Catholics both believe unicorns don't exist.
Agnostics don't know if unicorns exist.
Therefore everyone is crazy, because obviously unicorns exist.
Re:Atheism isn't a belief system (Score:3, Insightful)
please take into account that set theory is not selfconsistent.
furthermore, atheism is not a belief system in the same way as when the amish say "I don't have a TV set in my house". whoever modded you insightful is kind of stupid.
Religion is not compatible with logic or evidence (Score:4, Insightful)
Religious types don't do reason. Something is true because somebody says it is.
Re:He deserves it (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:Atheism isn't a belief system (Score:5, Insightful)
How does a belief that there is no God not count as a belief system?
Well, first of all, atheism is not "a belief that there is no God," it is a lack of belief in any gods at all (for some reason, Christians insist that there is only one deity anyone could believe in).
Quote: Atheism is a religion the same way not collecting stamps is a hobby. Unquote.
He should have said "God" Exists! (Score:4, Insightful)
"God" exists,
"God" is a concept oh so useful to the hierarchs.
"God" is a pernicious lie told to the sheeple under the steeple, to keep the path to power steep, to make the disloyal (called the unfaithful) weep.
"God" makes beautiful music. No arguing with that.
"God" the great pacifier in the sky - "peace be upon him/her/it"
"God", What a concept! - so much much bigger and badder than "Unicorns".
Reality: defn 1: That which is still there after you stop believing in it. Why does "God" need belief so much? Because it's just an abstract frickin' IDEA. Without belief, or at least being thought about, or written down, or sung about, it doesn't exist. It is only the IDEA of "God" that has an effect on the world.
Re:Atheism isn't a belief system (Score:3, Insightful)
Let's test that reasoning. Let's call "the Flying Spaghetti Monster does not exist" proposition M.
* Pretty much everyone: the value of M is "true"
* Pasta agnostics: the value of M is "unknown"
It's easier to understand if you remove the negative from the proposition, so let's try again. Call "there is a Flying Spaghetti Monster" proposition M'.
* Pretty much everyone: the value of M' is "false"
* Pasta agnostics: the value of M' is "unknown"
Thing is, propositions without evidence are typically false by default. Also, thinking something's overwhelmingly likely is not the same as logical proof and not the same as faith.
Re:He deserves it (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes, and some values are better than others. Notably, those values which result in the murder of people who are guilty only of speaking their mind, are the kind of values that should be treated with deserved contempt.
Re:Atheism isn't a belief system (Score:3, Insightful)
But evolution is not a religious conviction (in the way that atheism is)
How is atheism a religious conviction, when the overwhelming majority of atheists are quite simply saying 'I will not believe in unfalsifiable mumbo jumbo, there is no reason nor could there ever be to prefer "god exists" as a conjecture, so I will treat it like other unfalsifiable claims such as the tooth fairy'?
The only difference between atheism and agnosticism is how agressively they push 'unfalsifiable items are bullshit', in reality the two points are the same but one is more politically accepted even though both positions refuse to accept something without evidence (which can never be supplied, because for there to be evidence something has to be falsifiable)
Re:Article 6 (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:note to self (Score:4, Insightful)
Yeah, and you'd miss out on a stunning country and amazing people.
I don't know about GP, but as an atheist, it would seem to me that said stunning country and its amazing people have actually made it illegal for me to enter. Or, at least, to truthfully answer any question about my religion if I do.
Re:He deserves it (Score:4, Insightful)
Hitler was most emphatically not an atheist. He was a member of the Catholic church until his death, and was firm enough about it to order his peers to remain members. Mein Kampf, which he penned in his own hands, is replete with religious references. I encourage you to question what you've been told, because it's clear that you are accepting input from others who are plainly not rich in their historical education. Regardless:
When someone cites for me the list of "atheist" tyrants and the bad things they did, what I conclude is that when governments of any enforce religious creeds on the many, the result is always an epic fucking disaster. I hope this is your view as well.
C//
Re:He deserves it (Score:5, Insightful)
Atheism is not a religion, not even when you use "quotes". Atheism is relying empirical evidence rather than superstition. Atheism asks "why?" and doesn't accept "because god says" as an answer. It's hard to accept "we don't fully know yet", but it's a much better answer than "god". Once you write down "god" as an answer for something, you stop looking at the problem, or worse, it becomes taboo to look at the problem. That's a very bad place to be, because, god or not, I don't see anyone solving any human problems except for other humans.
Beaten in the name of God (Score:4, Insightful)
clerical terrorism (Score:4, Insightful)
There are presently 69 comments that show as +5 under my preferences. (Long ago I think I disabled the funny bonus since some moderators have a tau on fart jokes suitable for dating planetary origins.)
Not one of these premium insights mentions Christopher Hitchens, far and away the most outspoken critic of clerical terrorism, much of which originated in the Salmon Rushdie context, and since expanded.
Slowly I've been recruited by ugly world events to Hitch's analysis of fatwa fascism.
Hitch makes a point about Iran that their nuclear ambitions and their intransigence on democracy are inseparable: the nuclear card is a gambit to retain domestic political power.
In the same way, if top leadership endorses fatwa decrees, the general population is going to feel far greater inclination to break down doors and lay on a can of whup-ass over dissenting opinion.