Illegal To Take a Photo In a Shopping Center? 544
New submitter Kyrall writes "A man was questioned by security guards and then police after taking a photo of his own child in a UK shopping center. The center apparently has a 'no photography' policy 'to protect the privacy of staff and shoppers and to have a legitimate opportunity to challenge suspicious behavior.' He was told by a security guard that taking a photo was illegal. He also said that a police officer claimed, 'he was within in his rights to confiscate the mobile phone on which the photos were taken.'"
When photography is outlawed.... (Score:2)
only outlaws will have still cameras.
And the state will have video cameras.
Everywhere.
Long live privacy!
Re:When photography is outlawed.... (Score:5, Informative)
Ironically, Britain is said to have more state-operated cameras than anywhere else on Earth (but it still cannot solve 80% of its crimes). It seems that the more cameras the state uses, the fewer it allows ordinary citizens to use. This may be a manifestation of a psychiatric illness on the part of the some administrators, who have placed cameras into a god-like position that only they are allowed to officiate.
Re:When photography is outlawed.... (Score:5, Informative)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJH9F7Hcluo [youtube.com]
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You think that's bad? Just go into your local Walmart with a pen and paper and start writing prices down and time how long it takes them to stick security [google.com] on you. I have just discovered that Tesco has the same policy [guardian.co.uk].
Oh you know Britain (Score:5, Funny)
Everything is OK (Score:4, Funny)
Won't Somebody Please Think of the Shoppers? (Score:5, Insightful)
A spokesperson for Braehead said it wanted to "maintain a safe and enjoyable environment" for shoppers.
There is literally nothing I enjoy more than to have a security guard and the police question me in front of my small child when all I was doing was minding my own business.
Re:Won't Somebody Please Think of the Shoppers? (Score:5, Funny)
Minding your own business?
All the art work on commercial packaging in the shopping center are copyrighted designs! You really think you can get away with copyright violations?
You sir, are worse than Hitler!
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Love that sig
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It seems pretty simple to me. It's their store and if they don't want me taking pictures there I can either just not do it or I can tell them to kiss my ass and leave and never go back. I think it would depend on how they presented it to me. I don't know about the UK but around here there are bunches of stores. I've written a couple off my list and apparently I wasn't the only one. Both stores went tits up after a few years of treating their customers like crap, if you piss off your customers you can't
Is drawing also illegal? (Score:4, Interesting)
How about making a phone call? After all, someone could hear what is going on in the background.
How about closed circuit T.V.? The U.K is famous for having cameras everywhere. Isn't that a privacy issue?
How much of our ability to record the events in our lives is illegal under this logic, and subject to confiscation?
What if we just remember what we had for lunch? That could be terrible. Can we tweet about what we see? Is it okay to post a description of who you see at the mall?
Re:Is drawing also illegal? (Score:4, Informative)
I agree with you, and suggest that you head on over to the (ugh, Facebook) protest campaign [facebook.com] and if you have a FB account, add your vote/click/support etc.
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I had a regulator once tell me (in the role of VP of R&D) that I might have to fire my software team and hire an new one to develop the product under proper regulations, since the current team couldn't be trusted to not copy their "unregulated" work. He was about 22, straight out of regulator training school, he was also talking to the whole software development team (me.) We managed to get past that little bump, but the implication was that mere exposure to the "illegally developed code" was enough t
Erosion of the Commons (Score:4, Interesting)
It's not endemic to the UK or Europe. I was told the same thing trying to take a picture in a Target parking lot outside of Baltimore, MD. I didn't think much of it at the time, but what if my car had been damaged and I needed to document it for insurance purposes?
Furthermore, (and this might be a UK/US discrepancy) IANAL but I was pretty sure all a strip mall security guard could do was ask you to leave the premises. Confiscating private property seems like a torts lawyers dream, IMHO. All you would have to do is refuse to surrender your camera/phone and taunt the minimum wage rent-a-cop until he slugs you, and never have to work again.
Actually, I think I might spend more time photographing strip malls... working sucks...
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The UK laws imply that you have the right to apply lubric
Re:Erosion of the Commons (Score:5, Informative)
I don't know that it's theft as such in the UK, but it's certainly not allowed.
There was supposed to be an education campaign within the UK police force to stop them from pulling this crap, as they've been shown repeatedly to be confiscating equipment without any powers to do so. And a mall cop certainly has no right to do that.
Taking a picture is most certainly not illegal either. It may be against company policy and may result in you being removed from and banned from the mall, but this is in no way illegal. (If you come back or refuse to leave, that's trespassing, sure.)
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The campaign was fronted by ACPO (the private organisation who advise the police how to enforce and interpret laws) after the Met (Greater London ) and City of London police spent a small fortune paying compensation to photographers arrested and detained under the terrorism act(s).
I'd not heard of it being such a big problem outside the major metropolitan centres, but apparently it still is.
Also, in Scotland, trespassing is a lot harder to arrest for in this case. But they could still do him for creating a
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Not in the US. There are limits as to what you can do on private property which is open to the public. A restaurant is also "private property", but you can't refuse to serve someone because they are Black, or Mormon, or Australian.
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"the owners of that property can set any rules they like."
Yeah, not so much. They can't set discriminatory rules like "men only" or "no blacks", and neither can they confiscate your property if they don't like you taking pictures. They can ask you to leave, and take you to civil court over the photos. That's pretty much it.
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Of course they can. Nevertheless, property owners have limited ability to do anything. Generally, all they can do is ask the photographer to stop, then ask them to leave. At that point all they can do is call the police who can remove the person for trespassing. If the property owner has posted signs that photography is not allowed, then they can more or less skip right to calling the police. Still, there is nothing more severe here than trespassing.
Simply put, shopping malls and stores do not have the
Re:Erosion of the Commons (Score:5, Informative)
IANAL, but I have fun with a DSLR, and educate myself on what I legally can or can't do with it.
IAAL and you have fundamentally misunderstood what has happened here. Since you like to educate yourself, I'll share some of my precious time ;)
This is not happening pursuant to any general laws relating to photography, which are probably quite similar in the UK and the US, but under under contract law.
As I understand this situation... When the occupant (that is the resident owner, or leaseholder) of private property (eg. a shopping centre) sets conditions of entry, and displays these conditions of entry in a place visible to the entrant, the entrant is taken to have agreed to those conditions by virtue of entering the premises. The quid pro quo here is that you agree to be bound by the conditions of entry, in return for an undertaking by the occupant not to sue you in trespass.
This is, for example, what gives supermarkets the "right" (it isn't a right, you've just given permission) to search your bags where this is stipulated in the conditions of entry.
The shopping centre in question apparently made it a condition of entry that no photographs be taken by entrants. And this gentleman was apparently in breach. I have not read the conditions of entry, but they may have included an agreement to surrender all " ... equipment; film; and other media to Capital Shopping Centres Group PLC or its authorised agents" on breaching said condition.
I doubt that this works very differently in the US, the UK or indeed any other common law country, (although there may be some variance as to what limits the various legislatures have set as to what contractual conditions might be enforceable).
Confiscation of cameras in the US is theft.
"Confiscation" without a statutory right of confiscation (as some LEOs may have) or the consent of the owner, has been a common-law crime in Britain since at least the 12th century and a statutory one since the 19th, known variously as 'larceny' and 'theft.' Without reading the actual conditions, however, we don't know whether or not the gentleman in question had agreed (albeit unwittingly) to hand over his camera.
The story, I'm led to believe, has a happy ending, the corporation in question having agreed to remove this onerous condition.
The larger problem --the privatisation of the High Street and the concomitant abrogation of individual rights this involves --is, in the face of the relentless invasion of the mall, unlikely to be so happily resolved.
Re:Erosion of the Commons (Score:4, Informative)
the UK or indeed any other common law country
Just a point of information, this happened in Scotland, which, technically, isn't a Common Law country - it's one of the few mixed jurisdictions, like Louisiana and South Africa.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Are you sure that they can 'include an agreement to surrender all " ... equipment; film; and other media to Capital Shopping Centres Group PLC or its authorised agents" on breaching said condition.' ?
If so - can I set up a store in the U.K. and put a sign up at the entrance saying "by entering, you agree to pay me a thousand pounds" and then confiscate the money in the wallets of all those who are stupid enough pass through a door without reading the fine print?
I know that in Sweden, you can simply claim th
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I have not read the conditions of entry, but they may have included an agreement to surrender all " ... equipment; film; and other media to Capital Shopping Centres Group PLC or its authorised agents" on breaching said condition.
The precedent here in England is that such terms are unenforceable unless specific attention is drawn to them. See for instance the rather famous comment from Denning LJ in J Spurling Ltd v Bradshaw [wikipedia.org]. A term granting a right to confiscate personal property merely because it has been used in a particular place seems to me to be very much the kind of term Denning was talking about in that judgment.
AIUI, Scottish law has a tendency to follow English in such matters, so I would presume the case is similar ther
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And when I rescind permission, as for example I always do when some "greeter" demands to see the receipt for merchandise I just paid for not 15' away? The signs I always see say "$PLACE reserves the right to search blah blah", which I interpret to be nonsense. You simply can't reserve a right you don't have. Now if it said somet
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IAAL and you have fundamentally misunderstood what has happened here. Since you like to educate yourself, I'll share some of my precious time ;)
IANAL, but I'll point out that you forgot to add "this is not a legal advice". You forgot the fact that courts routinely strike clauses in contracts that are considered unconscionable, or over burdening. IANAL, but I'm pretty sure that any court in a commonwealth country or the US would strike down any condition of entry that allowed a mall security guard to confiscate private possessions. As far as I know, the best they can do is ask you to leave (or charge you with trespassing). You also forgot to mention
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"...and displays these conditions of entry in a place visible to the entrant, the entrant is taken to have agreed to those conditions"
Now if I conducted a statistically valid survey of entrants to the mall and found that only 0.2 % of them recalled having seen the
posted "conditions of entry", and that none could accurately recall any particular condition, could I make a case that
the contract was not valid because it relied on a false model of human perception, attention, comprehension etc. and as
such the no
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Unlikely, I used to work security in a highrise with a sizable food court area, it's unlikely that we could have gotten away with that for the simple reason that there was always a camera on us when we were doing those sorts of confrontations.
Any mall large enough for people to be in a crowd is going to be similarly set up. If you're going to places with insufficient camera coverage of the bouncer, you should really think again about going in, those cameras aren't just for the protection of the owner and th
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What if I agree to photoshop out everything surrounding my kid who I was taking the picture of.
If that photo can still be banned, does it mean they own the air and light in between me and my little one?
Or do they only own the floor, walls, ceilings etc of the mall and images/objects on those?
WHUMMFF! Sound of security guard fist hitting non-compliant jaw.
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This is a case of having multiple possible antecedents for a pronoun.
From TFA:
In this case, the pronoun "he" is referring to it's antecedent "one officer".
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the police told him they were entitled to confiscate his phone (under anti-terrorism legislation)
Which, for the record, he had no power to do, under anti-terrorism legislation, or any other provision.
It would be so great... (Score:2)
if the people who responded to this actually had some knowledge about the United Kingdom's legal structure.
Probably not going to happen.
In Canada, the Security Guard's case would be dubious. While a shopping mall is private property it's not "private" private property. They could legitimately ask you to leave, but not confiscate your property.
This, of course, has nothing whatsoever to do with the case in the United Kingdom.
Re:It would be so great... (Score:5, Interesting)
This, of course, has nothing whatsoever to do with the case in the United Kingdom.
Well, it does have one thing in common - I doubt a Canadian (or American) security guard has been given any better (read: significant) training in what is or isn't legal behavior, or what they legally can or cannot do when dealing with a "suspect".
In America we had Homeland Security people telling photographers, post 9/11 (obviously), they couldn't take photos of bridges because they might be used for terrorism. The statement didn't have any basis in law... it seems they were just winging it. Fortunately some photographers pushed back, and now people know a bit more about their rights when it comes to photography in public spaces.
If this UK dad pushes back hard enough, maybe UK security guards (or, more likely, their bosses) will end up a touch better informed regarding what sorts of restrictions can and cannot be placed upon behavior in shopping malls.
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It depends a great deal on the state that you're in. I know that the SEIU wants more training for security, largely because it promotes workplace safety as well as giving them more leverage when bargaining for a new collective bargaining agreement.
Unfortunately, the conditions still largely suck and the licensing isn't anywhere near enough. And I say that from experience, they cover the basics of the law, but there's so much more that one really needs to know. Around here one doesn't require a license at al
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if the people who responded to this actually had some knowledge about the United Kingdom's legal structure.
...
This, of course, has nothing whatsoever to do with the case in the United Kingdom.
So, summary is you responded but had no actual knowledge of the United Kingdom's legal structure?
Not dubious at all (Score:2)
A security guard has the right to detain you and call police to have you arrested. They have the right to ask you to leave.
That is ALL they have the right to do.
They are NOT police officers, though an obscene number of them are power-crazed wannabe-jackboots who THINK they have authority.
The security guard STOLE the camera. Period.
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Same in Norway. Any private property is considered 'public' if you, the owner, treat it as such. Which means malls, parking lots etc.
You cannot demand or expect privacy by visiting such places (you might get filmed or photographed by someone without consent - and you can photograph someone without their consent).
I assume this particular case is a misguided case of protecting the children from pedos and women from upskirt shooters, coupled with a security guard with a God complex.
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so alice and bob needn't know so long as eve does?
but it would be illegal if not even eve knew she was eavesdropping?
Photographer Rights (Score:3)
Re:Photographer Rights (Score:5, Funny)
Well, that's complicated. If they have it posted that "No Photographs are allowed" then technically the pictures are THEIR property, not yours, and the same laws would apply which cover them being able to search, let's just say, a backpack which you've placed stolen items into.
This is so painfully wrong, legally and logically, that I'm just going to respond by listing some animals.
Dog, cat, rabbit, zebra.
silly "personality rights" (Score:2)
The issue here has to do with various European treaties and the so-called "personality rights." the mall doesn't want to be sued, so they have this policy. Since it is private property, they can make threats like that.
I don't know about confiscating the phone though.
You'd think... (Score:3)
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Policy Change and Apology (Score:2)
Abuses (Score:2)
I can't speak for UK law, but here in the US (Score:4, Informative)
Just like I tell them "no" when stores want to see my receipt as I exit the store. Businesses often purport to have rights they don't really have, i.e., "we reserve the right to inspect packages." There is no such right, absent a lawful shoplifting detention.
Don't be a sheep. Know your rights and stand up to unreasonable and intrusive behavior.
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The mall cop could ask you to leave, and have you arrested for trespassing if you don't, but he sure as hell couldn't confiscate your camera without a serious lawsuit. If a mall security guard tried tho take my camera, I'd tell him to fuck himself. I am a lawyer (but not your lawyer), so just let them try to place their damned dirty ape hands on me!
Indeed. I am a lawyer too (but not your lawyer!), though in Canada. And up here, while this sort of thing varies from province to province, shopping malls are generally regarded as public spaces, which means that you can't be removed without a good reason. So if you're just standing around, doing something within the confines of the law (e.g. taking a picture), and a mall cop wants to throw you out, you can (attempt to) nail the mall owner for a Charter violation.
But it was a UK police officer (Score:2)
Not exactly (Score:2)
Yes, but the contract doesn't say, "and if I don't show my receipt, you may detain me by force." And I'm about 99% certain Costco wouldn't be dumb enough to try. Yes, you'd be in breach of the agreement, but how would the person at the door even know who you are without seeing your membership card, which you wouldn't show on the way out eith
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On the other hand, compassion is free, and compassionate people realize that some sales drones might be there due to hard times, and might be treating you in the sales-drone-fashion that they do because they fear their managers more than they fear your opinion of them.
So now, apparently, policy becomes law... (Score:2)
I can't wait for this to take hold in the USA... stores, businesses, theme parks... they could all just write up a policy and the police could enforce it for them.
What irony... police officers enforcing a "no cameras" policy in a public place in the UK.
Just do it (Score:3)
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And of course the post I replied to in the first place! WTF do you think the "fight back with barred (sic) teeth" bullshit was supposed to mean? Didn't you notice my post was about fighting?
If you are going to throw insults such as "coward" and "really not a human being" around you really should try to actually read the thing you are referring to first. Couple that with your self ego pumping of "I'll be with the cowboys" and
TFA: Never states Security Guard could take Camera (Score:2)
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The actual law says that to confiscate his camera they'd have to arrest him for taking pictures likely to be used in a terrorist attack. I imagine the court case that followed, and then the lawsuit, would be an interesting gong show.
Not new. (Score:3)
http://www.google.com/search?q=take+pictures+security+public [google.com] , and it will get worse. :(
It has been reversed. (Score:5, Informative)
Seems the mall came to their senses.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-15251848
Waitrose Fruit Photo (Score:4, Informative)
Recent experiences in the U.S. and Canada (Score:5, Interesting)
About a month later, my girlfriend was harrassed in a Canadian sandwich shop for taking pictures of wall art she thought was cute. An employee had the audacity to harrass her (a paying customer, no less), block the exit, and intimidate her into deleting the photos from her phone in front of him. He spouted some nonsense about "corporate espionage". After some very loud complaints by me, the owner of the sandwich chain apologized profusely, disciplined the employee (I think he's actually gone now), and mailed us a gift certificate.
So, needless to say I've done some reading up on this...from what I can tell, the law does actually seem to be on the side of the fascists because civil liberties have eroded so badly. It's difficult to tell if the situation is worse in the U.S. or Canada, but in both countries there are a number of ways in which you can be legally harrassed for taking photos inside a place of business. However, I don't believe anyone but an actual policeman, federal agent, etc. (not a rent-a-cop or employee) can legally confiscate your property (your phone) or look through it.
This "OMG no photos" mindset is not only the product of police-state paranoia, it's fed by the ideologues of intellectual property. The irony is that businesses should be embracing the free advertising...many of these photos will end up on the Web in some form, likely mentioning the location, maybe even tagged with that info and the name of the store, products, and other data-mining fodder. Not to mention the fact that cellphone cameras are an everyday reality now, and bothering anyone who uses them in a store makes for horrible PR and customer service in a very precarious sales economy.
Re:Recent experiences in the U.S. and Canada (Score:5, Insightful)
Texas Improper Photography Law (Score:4, Informative)
Texas has what is known as an "Improper Photography" law. Relax, those of you who couldn't take a good picture to save your life. This law is aimed squarely at people whose photography offends other people, generally the people who shoot photos of complete strangers. The message seems to be that we don't tolerate street photographers in Texas. Now, that isn't how the law is sold to the public. This is supposed to be an anti-unwitting porn star law. It was born of the need to stop people from photographing strangers in locker rooms, dressing rooms and other places where they would have a reasonable expectation of privacy. However, the law goes beyond that. If you stand at a children's football game and shoot photos of the children, you stand a good chance of an angry confrontation, followed by police investigation. One professional photographer was arrested because people thought he was shooting too many photos of women at a street festival (his case was dismissed). IOW, the people who are being arrested under this law aren't in private places; they are out in public. Most of those arrested people who are now reported in the press do seem seriously sketchy, but nothing in the law would discourage someone from pressing charges against any photographer who shoots photos of several strangers in public.
In theory, the Supreme Court says that I have the Constitutional right to shoot videos of anyone who is in a public place. In practice, several Texans have informed me that if they see me shooting photos of anyone's children, they will inflict on me significant bodily harm. This law is part of their justification that they are in their legal rights to do so.
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I also thought it is "required" for photographers to ask for a "model release" if they take recognizable pictures of people.
Not for news reporting, typically only for illustration or advertising, so it'd be fully legal to run a news article with "Here's happy people at the $foo festival in $bar, see our picture slideshow". And a hobby photographer doesn't need a model release unless he intends to publish the image in a recognizable form, for example a painter may wish to photograph a scene and paint it later with altered faces. Absolutely no signatures are required to take the photo.
Dutch government promotes takeing pictures (Score:4, Interesting)
Who owns the mall? (Score:3)
Now, standing across the street on the sidewalk, taking a picture of the mall, would likely be a permissible activity from public property. But the law doesn't usually force property owners to allow people on their property to do any specific activity.
There was an interesting story recently about someone who ran into similar problems at the Mall of America [npr.org], as well.
Re:No. (Score:4, Insightful)
Partial credit. The correct answer is "Hell no." I would also have accepted "Fuck you."
Re:No. (Score:5, Informative)
Re:No. (Score:5, Insightful)
He also doesn't have the right to say that breaking his mall's rules is illegal. If you break policy, they can ask you to leave. If you refuse, you are then trespassing. That is illegal. Despite what cops (or pompous property owners) say, photography is not a crime. They can neither confiscate your camera nor make you delete the photos.
Of course, that only applies to the US; YMMV but I expect most countries are very similar.
Re:No. (Score:4, Informative)
"Causing a public disturbance" isn't actually a criminal offence, at least not in Scotland. The closest I'm aware of is "behaviour likely to cause harassment, alarm or distress", but I suspect it would be quite hard to prove in this case. Particularly as the police have recently received guidance that people being offensive to them isn't in actual fact likely to cause them distress, because accepting offense is part of their job...
A common-law "breach of the peace" may also qualify, but in order for that to be proved, the offender must be shown to have threatened damage to person or property (or behaved such that a reasonable person believed they were under threat) whereas it was actually the centre owner who was threatening damage to property by trying to delete the pictures.
Like England and Wales, trespass (by itself) is not a criminal offence in Scotland, so you cannot be arrested for trespass. You can be required to leave, and you can be required to rectify any damage caused by your trespassing, but you cannot be arrested for it. There are exceptions: trespass on crown land, "encamping", and so on, but none would apply here.
Causing a public disturbance *is* grounds to issue an ASBO, so the photographer needs to watch out he doesn't get one of those. If he does, repeating the behaviour *would* be a criminal offence. But without actually issuing the order before the behaviour occurs, this is irrelevant from the point of view of arresting/prosecuting him.
So, no, I don't think they had a legal leg to stand on.
Above is not legal advice. I'm not a lawyer, nor Scottish, but do take an interest in these things.
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Re:No. (Score:4, Insightful)
The "thing is" that all property is held in fee simple and ultimately belongs to the government, and most of what you can and cannot do anywhere is defined or enforced or allowed to be enforced thanks to the government. This will never change as long as the world is ruled by humans. So the question becomes whether you want a government which can be bought by the many or bought by the few. The answer will depend on whether the dominant philosophy in the country is to invent rights for the powerful or rights for the weak. America just might possibly be slowly changing its mind, but it's still firmly in the former camp.
"But won't somebody please think of the mall owner!" OK, I'm thinking of him, and I've decided that where lots of public eyes may go, he must permit private photographs as an extension of the natural faculty of memory (which may be photographic).
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Not in Scotland, where the Breahead Shopping Centre is located. In Scotland, you own the land outright, not that it makes any practical difference.
Re:No. (Score:4, Informative)
Even before that, if you were the feuholder of the land, you owned it outright, whereas the closest equivalent in England, the freeholder, merely has a licence to occupy the land in perpetuity from the Queen. I'm thinking more of the Norman invasion in 1066 which didn't happen in Scotland.
However, you do still need to get planning permission to do things with the land, and you can still be subjected to a compulsory purchase order.
Re:No. (Score:4, Informative)
Ooh, get this. (Score:5, Insightful)
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Well, malls are pretty much the temples of modern day capitalism. I mean, look at how Vegas is about to take its place up there with the Great Pyramid at Gaza and the Taj Mahal and the Hagia Sophia as one of the wonders of the world... and Vegas is pretty much the biggest mall of them all.
You're walking on hallowed ground! Kowtow low! And respect the powers that have provided you with all that is good upon this mortal earth!
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There's a pyramid in Gaza? Better not let the Israeli's know about it. They'll just declare the area around the pyramid a "restricted military zone", kick out the people who have been living there since before there was an Israel, then two years later allow Israelis to start building in the zone.
Next Movie: The Mall (Score:2)
They had movie titles like "The Firm", "The Executioner" and before you know it, they will have "The Mall, The Movie", coming to a theatre near you.
Soon.
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If photography is now illegal in malls, how are they gonna film this movie?
Yeah, you didn't think of that, did you?
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Not illegal, but perfectly okay to be banned –on private property, in the UK, which this is, the owner is entirely at their liberty to say whether or not you can take a photo.
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I very much doubt they can do much else other than kick you out if you do take a photo, however. Definitely not confiscate your camera.
Re:No. (Score:5, Informative)
while you are correct in saying that they might be able to stop you taking a pic there's no chance that a security muppet from a private firm has any rights to confiscate your property.. in Scotland that would theft along with "wilful deprivation of property"
Also doing so i Glasgow would be a bold move..lol the Weedgies would have yer eye out for less! i asked a mate of mine who is a Lothian and Borders(Edinburgh area) police officer and he said and i quote "that's a load of balls bud, they can't really stop you and definitely cannot take your kit, the force of law is not on their side" he then told me what the security dude could be charged with for taking your kit. Also under certain circumstances if the security "man-handle" you they can be done for assault as well!
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Not quite. Small difference. They have no right to force you to do or not do something, but they can demand that you leave if you refuse their requests. And they certainly can't demand your property. (such as take your camera) or demand your actions (such as delete photos taken) Short summary: you don't lose any of your rights simply because you're on someone else's property. BUT being ON their
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Also, there is a huge difference between "illegal" and "against policy".
As commercial private property, shopping centres can ask you to leave for whatever (reasonable) reason they see fit, and if you dont comply, can be forced by police under trespassing laws. Breaking their policies in the first place however is not illegal.
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The real question here is: why do people need so badly to take pictures and upload them to Facebook all the time?
Yes, I for one am completely perplexed by this new found fascination with photographing your own kids. It's so strange.
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If you read the article, by the time the police was involved the picture was already on Facebook. This goes beyond taking pictures of your own kid.
Re: (Score:2)
Other peoples kids however, hubba hubba.
I kid ;)
Re:Get a life (Score:5, Insightful)
Cherish it, it clearly isn't going to last.
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Open to the public isn't the same as public property, but it DOES impose a number of limitations that would not apply to private property that is not open to the public. For example, in my home, I can be as racist as I like. I need not ever invite anyone of a race I don't like into my home. A place that is open to the public does NOT have that option.
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You might be surprised to learn that one of the first applications of practical personal photography has been proud parents taking informal photos of their kids. It seems to be quite popular. That was a few years before the internet, back when dinosaurs roamed the earth.
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Photographing your kids is nothing new and it seems to bring people a lot of joy, so why have a problem with it.
Re:In Soviet Russia (Score:4, Interesting)
Funny, but the real irony is, how many pictures do you supposed the British government got of this man when he walked into this establishment?
Re:In Soviet Russia (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Private property. (Score:4, Insightful)
Sure, I understand what you're saying. And if enough people did it, it *might* make a difference. Except that most people, especially the kind who shop at "the mall" simply don't care.
I mean, how do you think we in the so-called freedom loving first world countries got to where we are, essentially a collection of Fascist police states?
People are selfish children who care mostly about flashy toys, and as long as we get our flashy toys at prices only sweat-shop workers can produce, we're a happy lot!
In other words, most of us simply don't give a rip.
Sad, but true.
Re:Private property. (Score:5, Informative)
Interesting that you say that! It seems there was a fair sized protest on Facebook [facebook.com] (and presumably email). From that page:
Further to the previous statement Capital Shopping Centres Group PLC have confirmed that they will be changing the photography policy at the 11 directly owned centres and that at the other 3 centres, which owned in partnership with other companies, they will be discussing with their partners the policy change and recommending that it be adopted.
As you will have seen Capital Shopping Centres Group PLC have issued a formal apology and said that they have changed their policy on photographs and will allow family and friends to take photographs. I do intend to keep the dialogue going with Capital Shopping Centres Group PLC and clarify that this aplies across all of 14 of their shopping centres including The Trafford Centre and Lakeside.
I don't know how many people participated, but it seems to have been enough.
Re: (Score:3)
If you don't like it, tell all the vendors inside the mall why the infringement on your personal liberties is keeping you from patronizing their businesses.
It looks like people have [braehead.co.uk]. Never let anyone say we are powerless. Now the question is, how can we arrange a boycott of the police force???
Re: (Score:2)
fpfail