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Terror Arrest Used As Fodder To Fund Real ID Act 212

Posted by samzenpus
from the excuses-excuses-excuses dept.
BeatTheChip writes "There's been a lot of buzz in recent days concerning the deadline to deliver on the federal Real ID Act. Congress is looking for corners to cut. One tactic is to attach emergency policy to the Real ID in order to sustain funding for its development by authoring members in Congress. In an effort to link the two, Rep. Lamar Smith and others asked DHS to increase enforcement of the Real ID Act over a terror suspect apprehended by lawful means."
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Terror Arrest Used As Fodder To Fund Real ID Act

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  • I wonder what kind of judicial punishment I would get for refusing this if it went into law.
    • Re: (Score:2, Interesting)

      by Anonymous Coward

      It almost seems more convenient to just use a national ID.

      I mean, if I could replace my driver's license and passport with this card, and it could act as an oAuth for any other service ( meaning complaint companies wouldn't need to issue their own magic cards anymore ), and especially if this card erased the need for multiple proofs of ID I'd be fine with having it. I'm not normally a convenience over security guy, but I really don't get why people flip shit over this when you already have a local nation id

      • Re:As a US citizen (Score:5, Insightful)

        by Kell Bengal (711123) on Wednesday March 02, 2011 @06:48PM (#35362906)
        I can decline to get a driver's license, and I can decline to get a passport. I don't have to have any id at all if I don't want. The implication is that I don't need identification or special permission to move freely about the country of which I am a citizen.

        With a national ID card scheme, I don't have a choice to opt out. Such a card exists solely for "papers please" moments. The implication is that I am not free to move about the country of which I am a citizen.
        • by cayenne8 (626475)
          Also, it is NOT a national ID. It is issued by my state...other states and the federal govt, for the most part..do not have the information from my DL immediately upon query. There isn't a national drivers license database.

          And most important...where the fuck is it in the constitution for the Federal Govt. to issues national id??

          • by perpenso (1613749) on Wednesday March 02, 2011 @07:33PM (#35363372)

            Also, it is NOT a national ID. It is issued by my state...other states and the federal govt, for the most part..do not have the information from my DL immediately upon query.

            From 2008: "The National Institute of Justice (NIJ) has teamed up with law enforcement agencies in four states in a pilot project to transmit driver’s license photographs across state lines and deliver the photos to an officer’s computer within seconds of a request." http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/nij/topics/law-enforcement/strategies/information-led-policing/photo-sharing.htm [usdoj.gov]

            There isn't a national drivers license database.

            "The computerized system uses the Global Justice XML Data Model (Global JXDM), an information-exchange standard designed specifically for criminal justice agencies that has been widely, but not universally, adopted."

            And most important...where the fuck is it in the constitution for the Federal Govt. to issues national id??

            It is where it always is, the commerce clause.

            • "The computerized system uses the Global Justice XML Data Model (Global JXDM), an information-exchange standard designed specifically for criminal justice agencies that has been widely, but not universally, adopted."

              Kim Possible and Dr. Director have a lot to answer for

          • by icebike (68054)

            and the federal govt, for the most part..do not have the information from my DL immediately upon query.

            You, sir, are delusional.

            There is not one federal police agency that can not get your DL info from any state in under 12 seconds flat.

          • by Hylandr (813770)

            Here you are wrong. We have had a national ID for several years now. In the form of your drivers license. Think about that next time you get on an airplane, and they shine that special light on your Drivers License or ID card when you're getting in line for your complimentary molestation.

            They made all Drivers license status reciprocal in all states, where a suspension in Arizona will result in a suspension everywhere else, so they are linked. This means law enforcement in Florida has access to Law enforceme

          • by c0lo (1497653)

            And most important...where the fuck is it in the constitution for the Federal Govt. to issues national id??

            Devil's advocate: where in the constitution is something to forbid Feds imposing a national ID?

            • by cayenne8 (626475)
              Basically...because the Constitution grants limited, specifically enumerated powers to the Federal govt....anything not listed there...is reserved for the states.

              So basically, if it ain't in the constitution, the Feds aren't supposed to be able to do it....

            • Nowhere - it isn't explicitly mentioned so therefore the federal government does not have the power to do so. The Constitution grants the federal government rights and any not listed are up to the states or "the people" as per the 10th Amendment.
        • Re:As a US citizen (Score:4, Informative)

          by Draek (916851) on Wednesday March 02, 2011 @07:09PM (#35363176)

          I'm not an US citizen, but can you also decline to get a Social Security number? and, if you can, are you able to conduct a normal life (ie, keep a job, buy a home, etc) without one?

          It seems to me your SS number serves the same role as other countries' national IDs, except with none of the safety checks they usually have.

          • by Zan Lynx (87672)

            Yes you can. You need a lawyer to front for you and you need to play some games with the corporation laws so that you pay your taxes through your corporation's tax ID. If you work at it you can manage to be legal and make money without a SSN. You cannot be an employee of anyone though. Best you can do is be a contractor.

          • by tirefire (724526)

            but can you also decline to get a Social Security number?

            No.

            are you able to conduct a normal life (ie, keep a job, buy a home, etc) without one?

            No.

            It seems to me your SS number serves the same role as other countries' national IDs, except with none of the safety checks they usually have.

            This is 100% correct right now, however, it is a recent development. People these days use SSNs excessively; they were only designed 80 years ago to be used for income/social security tax collection and for receiving social security benefits. Nowadays you're asked for your SSN if you try to order cable TV. *facepalm*

            • Re:As a US citizen (Score:5, Insightful)

              by Jane Q. Public (1010737) on Wednesday March 02, 2011 @08:00PM (#35363660)

              "... they were only designed 80 years ago to be used for income/social security tax collection and for receiving social security benefits."

              Not even that, really. When this was proposed, people were concerned that it would be used as a national ID. So the people were guaranteed, in so many words, that the SSN would never be used as an ID card. Up until just a few years ago, the cards said right on them that they were not to be used as ID.

              But then the government started making exceptions, and allowed banks and credit reporting agencies to use it as ID. Now, it's a big mess.

              But it demonstrates one thing clearly: don't trust government guarantees, when they try something like that. It might last for a few years, then "bye, bye."

              • by causality (777677)

                But it demonstrates one thing clearly: don't trust government guarantees, when they try something like that. It might last for a few years, then "bye, bye."

                There is such a mountain of evidence for this that it's really very simple: anyone who doesn't understand that simply doesn't want to. It definitely isn't because the facts leave any room for interpretation.

                The income tax was "a temporary (WWII) war-time measure".

              • by dargaud (518470)

                Up until just a few years ago, the cards said right on them that they were not to be used as ID. [...] But it demonstrates one thing clearly: don't trust government guarantees

                No, it demonstrates simply the need for an official identification method. SSN simply filled the need.

            • Not to mention that, IIRC, when Social Security was first rolled out, it was to be an optional program. How did that work out for us Yanks?
        • Do you have a driver's license? Have you ever declined to show it when asked? If so, you know it causes more trouble than it's worth. Not having one is even more of a hassle. It's great to have principles, but at the end of the day you have to pick your fights; it's easier to just comply and move on with your life. We no longer live in a society where people can be anonymous; Accept it and move on.
          • "More trouble than it's worth" is a matter of perspective. It might cause you inconvenience to refuse, but if you do, your children might just grow up in a society that still can't require IDs just to walk down the street. If you consistently cave, they might not.

            You choose which you think is more "worth it".
          • I didn't see your last sentence at first, but I have now, so I will go further: your attitude is precisely what caused us to be in a situation where anonymity is in danger.

            The ability to speak and transact business anonymously is essential to a free society. If you do not understand why, maybe you should read a few history books.
        • Just out of curiosity. If you don't have an ID, how does anyone know that you're a citizen of this country? If you are never required to produce it, how would anyone distinguish you from an illegal alien? ESP?

          • by causality (777677)

            Just out of curiosity. If you don't have an ID, how does anyone know that you're a citizen of this country? If you are never required to produce it, how would anyone distinguish you from an illegal alien? ESP?

            Simple. If you claim someone is an illegal alien, you are accusing them of breaking a law.

            The burden of proof is on the accuser.

            You either prove that they have in fact broken immigration law ... or else they are presumed innocent and assume to be a legal citizen.

            Really, it's easy as pie.

            • Give it a try in Arizona, and let me know how well that works for you...
            • The problem is that breaking of the law is defined by the paper. Being an illegal immigrant is defined by not having papers. Otherwise, do you know how easy it would be to accuse someone of being an illegal alien? "Sorry, we couldn't find your identification papers back at HQ, please come with us."

              You have two choices: you open yourself up to arbitrarily being labeled an illegal immigrant by government officials, or you open yourself up having to ID yourself at specific points.

              An ID card is there to protect

        • by rtb61 (674572)

          However once you are arrested and are unable to prove your identity that does leave you in a bit of a pickle. As the police should not let you go until they can establish who you are under existing immigration laws. The logic being if it can not be proved that you are a citizen then be default you become an illegal immigrant.subject to deportation once they can prove which country you belong to and they must accept you.

          A voluntary ID card is reasonable as long as there are server penalties in place for p

        • Why, you can't use 10th amendment rights. States rights are only for racists, the democrats told me so!

        • by dargaud (518470)

          The implication is that I don't need identification or special permission to move freely about the country of which I am a citizen.

          Sooo... how do they know you are a citizen if you don't have identification ?!? The logic fails me. Note: I'm from a country with customary identification papers, and I've never been asked to show them EVER on the street. But when conducting business with the state (voting, going through customs, getting a speeding ticket, etc) sure, that's what they are for. I don't see what the big deal is.

          The implication is that I am not free to move about the country of which I am a citizen.

          I fail to see the connection. You can be harassed by police whether you have a piece of paper in your pocket or not.

      • Re:As a US citizen (Score:5, Insightful)

        by interkin3tic (1469267) on Wednesday March 02, 2011 @06:54PM (#35362970)

        I really don't get why people flip shit over this when you already have a local nation id in the form of a driver's license / state issued photo id and your passport

        Slippery slope for one. If this passes, the issue could become "Basically everyone already has these ID cards, why not make them mandatory" then "You already all have ID cards issued, there's no reason you shouldn't have them on you at all times. To prevent terrorism." Then "We had to shut down that protest: there were people breaking the law by not having national ID cards" or "Suspect was obeying the law, and had an ID card, but we suspected it was fake and incarcerated him until we could determine it was legitimate, at which time he had missed his speech 'when did we submit to totalitarian rule."

        And while each of those steps are a long shot and maybe unrealistic, but it's a pointless risk to take: we get no increased security in return. None. This won't prevent terrorism.

        • by NoSig (1919688)
          It's not about terrorism, it's about not having 10 different IDs in your wallet. Combine them into one, make it harder to fake now that you only need to make 1/10 as many and use it for everything. If you don't like your grocer talking to your shoe shop about what you are buying, have the card present a different id to everyone who asks, and have it so it takes a court order/similar process to access the information necessary to track that information back to you. So you wouldn't have a single card number,
    • Re:As a US citizen (Score:4, Insightful)

      by C_amiga_fan (1960858) on Wednesday March 02, 2011 @06:24PM (#35362632)

      Cling to your 9th and 10th amendment rights (right to privacy is one of those non-enumerated rights). It appears that's what the Member States of the Union are doing: "Half the states in the country have affirmatively barred themselves from implementing REAL ID or they have passed resolutions objecting to the national ID law." (Congress shall exercise no power reserved to the States.)

      BTW does the European Union have a single ID that all europeans must carry? If the EU tried to force the adoption of such an ID, how would the citizens or states react?

      • As a EU citizen (Score:2, Interesting)

        by Anonymous Coward

        Some states have national ID cards, some require you to always carry one on pain of arrest and a fine. The UK is a notable exception in that it actually implemented such a thing and then repealed it. Still has biometric passports though, and they'll take your fingerprints AND DNA swab if you're arrested --regardless of reason-- and will keep the profile indefinitely, "just in case". Getting out if proven innocent is unreasonably hard to the point of being almost impossible.

        My government insists on fingerpri

        • How do some states (Germany, France, etc) have national (EU) ID cards while others don't? If the EU has a national ID card wouldn't that apply to every state in the EU?
      • BTW does the European Union have a single ID that all europeans must carry? If the EU tried to force the adoption of such an ID, how would the citizens or states react?

        Not every country of the EU has that. But most have. As we have this since nearly hundreds of years, depending on country, no one complains.
        Afaik only the UK has no requirement for an ID card.

        (We have no EU wide unique id, though, they are country specific)

        angel'o'sphere

    • Excommunication.
    • by PPH (736903)
      You'll be cited for mopery with intent to gawk.
  • by Seumas (6865) on Wednesday March 02, 2011 @06:20PM (#35362584)

    Are you telling me that the government manufactures or manipulates events to frighten people into providing funding and release their liberties? Why, I've never heard of such a thing!

    • Are you implying that somehow makes it less important to pay attention to?

      Interesting outlook.

      "Jimmy murdered someone? So what? OLD NEWS! He murders people all the time?"
  • Wow. (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 02, 2011 @06:25PM (#35362642)

    I... am not sure I understand what the summary means. There is something wrong with those sentences. They give me a headache.

  • by Plugh (27537) on Wednesday March 02, 2011 @06:27PM (#35362660) Homepage
    Not in New Hampshire. We rejected Real-ID, and any de facto national identification card system [freestateproject.org].
  • California (Score:4, Insightful)

    by BJ_Covert_Action (1499847) on Wednesday March 02, 2011 @06:32PM (#35362712) Homepage Journal
    It's funny, for all our talk about being a forward looking state, and about being one of the strongest states in The Union, California sure likes to bend over and take it from the Federal Government regarding issues like this. Maybe we should start a rumor that the Real ID will allow the Federal Government to put homosexuals in concentration camps. That might get folks in this state thinking about privacy some....
    • Your papers, please. I must see your papers.

      Ahh, I see you have recently been to New York. Please step this way, this gentleman will escort you.

  • I don't understand why there's a want or a need for a national ID system. If you're a citizen, you already have Social Security documentation, and probably a passport/driver's license. If you're a legal resident, you have a visa of some sort. If you're not a legal resident, you're not going to get an ID anyway.

    I don't understand why people panic over a national ID system. They already have Social Security documentation, driver's licenses, and passports. It's not like nobody knows you exist, or you can't be

    • by 0123456 (636235)

      I don't understand why people panic over a national ID system.

      Because they've studied some history?

      As you say, there's no legitimate need for a 'national ID' system and there are a bazillion ways to abuse it to harm people. So everyone should panic when their government is trying to force it through.

      • by c6gunner (950153) on Wednesday March 02, 2011 @09:33PM (#35364478)

        Because they've studied some history?

        Doubtful. The average person I see beaking off on the topic tends to be they type who thinks that Caesar was a famous Italian cook.

        As you say, there's no legitimate need for a 'national ID' system and there are a bazillion ways to abuse it to harm people.

        Yeah. Paper-cuts really suck. A bazillion of them would really REALLY suck.

        If your government plans to oppress you, they're going to do it with guns, not with cards.

    • by idontgno (624372) on Wednesday March 02, 2011 @06:51PM (#35362938) Journal

      Two words:

      "internal passport" [wikipedia.org]

    • I'm really, truly apathetic on this, and I don't understand why anyone cares at all.

      It's a huge waste of money. We pay that money with our taxes or with fees associated with the IDs.

      • by Rivalz (1431453)

        I think they need real id's soon because they are going to bankrupt the social security system and have to have something in place when it collapses.

    • Perhaps you should take your time to look for the videos on youtube.com of www.thezeitgeistmovement.com

      And take the time to watch one of them, yes takes 2h ... so scroll back and forth if you want.

      But it will give you an idea what your government and the men behind it are doing since 60 - 80 years ;D

      Regards

      angel'o'sphere

      • by c6gunner (950153)

        If you take those movies seriously, you're either credulous, delusional, or an idiot. Most of the fans fall into the first category - they're naive and ignorant, and tend to believe anyone with an authoritative voice and a movie camera. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, and assume you fall into the same category. Please let me know if I'm mistaken.

    • I don't understand why there's a want or a need for a national ID system.

      Probably slightly less paperwork for law enforcement, so they like it. And some government contracts would probably be awarded for the manufacture and tracking of the ID, so there's that economic interest to hire lobbyists. Plus, homeland security's primary job is to fool the public into thinking they're safe, big intrusive programs are some of the most effective placebos in that aspect. So there's plenty of want and need for it.

      Oh, did you mean legitimate reasons why this is good for the nation? We

    • by cdrguru (88047)

      Maybe you missed the part about some states deciding that it was better for illegal immigrants (or undocumented workers, if you prefer) to have driver's licenses than not. As part of this decision the rules controlling how you got a driver's license were relaxed. No longer is there a need for a certified copy of a birth certificate or any other government document that offers a proof of identity. All that is needed is a note from somewhere (most often cited is the local Mexican consulate) that says this

    • by bugi (8479)

      Along with the various ways it can be abused against citizens directly, there's the slow lobster-cook method of stripping away rights. Recall the old "First they came" statement. In addition to the direct effects on citizens, it is an excuse to further consolidate power into a national government. Thus the actions by those states that are paying attention, to hopefully prevent their rights from being further eroded.

  • If they think having real id's will protect infrastructure they are wrong.
    If they think having real id's would save more lives or fight crime/terrorism more than just dumping the money into police / safety / intelligence measures wrong again.

    What we need to do is think further ahead after the real id comes out. We will need a really real id.
    Then we can lay the ground work for a Real DNA id.
    Then maybe we can have Really real secure dna id by 2020.
    It'll only set us back 10 trillion and another 2 trillion each

    • by sconeu (64226)

      Then we can lay the ground work for a Real DNA id.

      Oh crap. My DNA is synthetic!

    • by bugi (8479)

      DNA-based IDs -- the better with which to discriminate against the growing population of non-biological sentients.

  • by PPH (736903) on Wednesday March 02, 2011 @07:11PM (#35363200)

    ... set fire to the Reichstag building [wikipedia.org].

    On second thought, that's been done already. Never mind.

  • Can't we get the fundies stirred up on this? They usually equate this sort of thing with "the mark of the beast." Perhaps it's a good time for a reminder...
  • No less than 25 states have passed resolutions or laws saying that they will not comply with Real ID. Period. It is dead in the water, it will never fly.

    Faced with this state refusal, every year since Congress has voted to "delay" the program for another year. They haven't killed it, simply because they don't want to lose face over having voted to pass a law that is universally despised throughout the U.S. They simply don't want it to come to people's attention.

    If they tried to enforce it tomorrow, my
  • The whole Real ID mess came about because a number of states (Illinois for one) decided to abandon any real standard for issuing state-backed identification. I was recently in Germany and they accepted my Arizona driver's license as a valid ID - no passport required after the guy at the airport. I'm sure they would accept an Illinois driver's license equally well - in fact, they did the time before I went to Germany and was living in Illinois.

    The problem is, in Illinois you an get a driver's license that

    • There are a lot more reasons the Feds have for wanting Real ID than just that. They just don't talk about them. The situation you describe probably isn't even a major motivation; it's just an excuse.
  • Quote from TFA:

    With another faux implementation deadline looming in May, the DHS is almost certain to issue a blanket extension of the compliance deadline again soon.

    Smith, King, and Sensenbrenner don't want that to happen. They cite the arrest of Khalid Aldawsari in Texas as a reason for "immediate implementation of REAL ID."

    So I predict a scheduled event in in May, about 15 days before the deadline. That should give enough time for sensational stories to be published, State Legislatures to be stampeded, and federal mandates to be imposed. Its time for the curtain to go up on another Act in the Security Theater.

When in doubt, mumble; when in trouble, delegate; when in charge, ponder. -- James H. Boren

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