Out of Egypt Censorship, US Tech Export Under Fire 217
AndyAndyAndyAndy writes "After it was exposed that American firm Narus had sold Egypt the Deep Packet Inspection equipment used to spy on and censor its citizens, the US House Committee on Foreign Relations held a hearing where Reps. Chris Smith and Bill Keating 'grilled Deputy Secretary of State James Steinberg on the sale of this Internet spying technology to an Egyptian Internet provider controlled by the Mubarak regime.' It seems there is now a push for stronger controls and monitoring for technology exports 'that would provide a national strategy to prevent the use of American technology from being used by human rights abusers.'"
Several readers have noted that Hosni Mubarak has now stepped down as president of Egypt. Control of the country's affairs has been passed to the high council of its armed forces, which has some journalists and bloggers worried.
No Time to Worry! (Score:2)
No time to worry, as this is the first time that the controls already in place failed.
CC.
Re:No Time to Worry! (Score:5, Informative)
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Yeah, we've got it so god damn bad here. Why just the other day a bunch of goons in facemasks busted down my door because I said Obama sucks in a phone conversation.
Fucking perspective - get some you drama queen.
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Well, that's maybe where we differ. I think we need to be adults and think of everybody, especially if Al Qaeda is successful in getting nuclear weapons [msn.com], which they already have permission to use [foreignpolicy.com].
But, if it will make you more comfortable, for the moment lets forget about the children, and see where we stand. We can recap, and maybe you could point out what is actually wrong instead of in essence saying "I don't like it".
I pointed out that the courts have ruled against
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Gees, silly me and I thought it all started here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irgun [wikipedia.org], with a bunch of terrorist attacks upon the British by Jewish Palestinians and those terrorists seeking to establish a Jewish apartheid state in the middle east. Apparently the US got drawn into this by the cold war on the side of the terrorists (go figure), which really pissed off the Saudis, who have ever since worked to gain revenge for a diplomatic betrayal (they have oddly enough been protected in doing this by America
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Re:No Time to Worry! (Score:4, Insightful)
Wait a minute: "prevent the use... from being used"? So they can use it, but they can't use using it?
Re:No Time to Worry! (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:No Time to Worry! (Score:5, Insightful)
There's a historical reason why SSL is not more common: because the hierarchy of certificate trust was not propagated through the hierarchy of DNS. That's the logical thing to do: If you control the domain name servers for your own domain, you can publish your own public keys. It would have been free and open, reducing the barrier of entry to practically zero. Instead, administrators have been forced to establish the relationship between certificates and DNS names using a commercial third party. Instead of extending the DNS protocol, we pay people to perform a workaround.
This was a huge mistake that basically led to companies like Verisign extorting billions of dollars in exchange for permitting web administrators to encrypt traffic to their sites. What's brilliant is that Verisign owns a significant chunk of the root DNS name servers! It's a conflict of interest for them to enable a free and open hierarchy of trust based on DNS, because it would eliminate most of their business overnight.
That, right there, is corporate corruption on a billion dollar scale that is directly detrimental to human rights, privacy, and information safety.
I wonder how many people have been executed or imprisoned due to Verisign's stifling of internet cryptography enabling corrupt governments to spy on their citizens?
The USG Wants Two Things From You, Narus (Score:5, Funny)
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1. Now that the beta testing is complete, we would like you to stop selling this technology to other countries so they can use it to oppress their citizens.
2. Put whatever you like on the price list, because it's not our money, it's our taxpayers' money.
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We said we didn't want them to have a kill switch too...what hypocrisy.
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All the actions of our government over the last few y
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http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries/news/2006/05/70914 [wired.com]
that was Narus equipment then, as well. The Egyptians saw how good AT&T had gotten at it, and ordered themselves up some of that spy pie.
Stronger controls (Score:4, Insightful)
It seems there is now a push for stronger controls and monitoring for technology exports 'that would provide a national strategy to prevent the use of American technology from being used by human rights abusers.'"
I can't see that getting through unless the small print includes a special exception for Israel.
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Considering that this is Israeli technology*, this should be modded funny. We don't have the balls to tell Israel what to do.
Or is it? If the NSA/CIA wants something built and made available to their allies without the interference by Congress, just slip development money and specifications (or blueprints) to Israel.
In regards to Mubarak stepping down (Score:2)
Re:In regards to Mubarak stepping down (Score:4, Insightful)
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LOL!
Because the story isn't over yet. Mubarak may have stepped down, but that doesn't mean Egypt is free. If they aren't careful, they will end up like Iran. Lots of signs are pointing to exactly that happening.
Gaza had free and open elections. Hamas was elected. That doesn't mean they're free.
The entire Middle East is on fire right now. They all want Sharia law. You're about to see what it looks like to have a Caliphate in a large part of the world.
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If you had a clue about middle east politics you'd know that a large part of the people there support a form of sharia law(80% or more). Which in turn means that the MB has strong peripheral support from the public to push for such a thing. Now with this being a defacto coup, there is the possibility that the military would step in before such a thing happened as well, just as it did here. But that remains to be seen.
Welcome to reality, she's a cold mistress. Mubark was a bottom feeder, but he isn't as
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In an obvious point to myself, I should have posted this but I guess it doesn't matter. I'll expect the usual partisan hacks to start trolling now. But you can read some reality right here: http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAnalysis/Article/562840/201102101920/What-Egyptians-Really-Do-Want.htm [investors.com]
Not so scared of Army control (Score:5, Interesting)
Based on how well the Egyptian army has handled itself these past few weeks and how they tried to stay as independent as possible I think it may actually be a GOOD thing that they are taking over for now. Better the army than the Muslim Brotherhood.
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Well the only problem in a country where there has been the same leader for decades is who exactly wasn't put in their position by him?
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The military leadership are all war veterans from before Mubarak and are all career professional soldiers.
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2011/02/201121185311711502.html [aljazeera.net]
Egypt's military isn't one where the military leadership are there by grace of Mubarak like Iraq's was. Egypt has a professional officer corps along the British system, reinforced by the Soviets and augmented by 30 years of sending folks to War Colleges in the United States.
Field Marshal Mohamed Hussein Tantawi is a Nubian too,
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The funny thing that people are forgetting is that there is another country that elected a General as its first President after revolution. I think I have a few of his pictures in my wallet.
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Benjamin Franklin was elected President? :-)
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Wrong wallet :p And with ATMs who has Ben in their wallet? I think ATMs were invented by Andrew Jackson* historians so that people don't forget who he was.
*By the way - he was also a Major General.
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Washington wasn't the first President.
http://www.jud.ct.gov/lawlib/history/samhuntington.htm [ct.gov]
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Thanks for the clarification. It truly was just a question as I don't know anything about the politcal landscape in Egypt at all.
However, from the reports I've been reading, it doesn't appear that the protesters are satisfied with the military control and are demanding democracy, though I don't see how they can expect that to happen instantaniously. Surely someone must be in charge during the interim.
Re:Not so scared of Army control (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Not so scared of Army control (Score:5, Insightful)
I'll be honest with you - if they were called the Christian Brotherhood, Jewish Brotherhood or even Buddhist Brotherhood I'd be equally against them taking power. Egypt needs a secular government with a firm separation of church and state. God should have no place in government.
But I do agree that their threat is overrated by the news companies.
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"I'll be honest with you -..., Jewish Brotherhood ... I'd be equally against them taking power."
Does it have to be called "Jewish Brotherhood"? Could it be called "American Israel Public Affairs Committee" instead?
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I never said that the US is very good at separating church and state. Actually if you knew me in person you'd see I comment very often on where we are lacking in that area. I actually saw a picture of someone swearing in on a bible this morning and thought to myself - if I ever have to be sworn in it will be with my hand on "On the Origin of Species" or something like that.
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Origin is good, but I'd pick the Principia.
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Funny. I almost picked Newton. I went with Darwin, though, because of all the constant controversy between evolution and creationism. Sorry I mean Intelligent Design/Creation Science.
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Hm. I am pretty sure I am letting them decide their own future. Last I checked I don't get a vote. I also am confused by how your posts contradicts itself. So I should have been involved when Mubarak was leader but I shouldn't be involved now? How about I am not involved either way.
And my "answers" go for all countries - including my own which is under siege by religious fanatics who wanted to undue the 200+ year old foundation of our government.
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To some extent. The biggest thing was that they weren't allowed to have their own political party and honestly I wish the US wouldn't let religious organizations form political parties either.
Re:Not so scared of Army control (Score:5, Informative)
Ignorance is not an excuse [investors.com] to the realities of the world.
49% of Egyptians say Islam plays only a "small role" in public affairs under President Hosni Mubarak, while 95% prefer the religion play a "large role in politics."
84% favor the death penalty for people who leave the Muslim faith.
82% support stoning adulterers.
77% think thieves should have their hands cut off.
54% support a law segregating women from men in the workplace.
54% believe suicide bombings that kill civilians can be justified.
Nearly half support the terrorist group Hamas.
30% have a favorable opinion of Hezbollah.
20% maintain positive views of al-Qaida and Osama bin Laden.
82% of Egyptians dislike the U.S. â" the highest unfavorable rating among the 18 Muslim nations Pew surveyed.
And every place where 'islam is on the rise' including moderate indonesia, you'll see: repression, repression, repression. It's not the new communism, it's a push towards the dark ages.
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Maybe because that is their stated goal.
Does anyone know who they really are? (Score:5, Informative)
The Muslim Brotherhood are not fanatics. They are the real equivalent of our Southern Baptists, stuffy old conservative men who want a society centered on religion. They have always condemned violence, and continually speak out against all terrorism. I wouldn't want to see them elected any more than I want our country ruled by Southern Baptists, but they are not radical terrorist Muslims. Oh, you will find some people claiming they are, but those are the same people who would believe a Muslim stamp collecting club was a terrorist organization. You won't find Al Qaeda praising the Muslim Brotherhood, indeed, all radical Muslims condemn it as too moderate.
As I said, i wouldn't want to see them elected, not because they would attack Israel, or turn against us, but they might require women to wear Burkhas and a lot of them seem quite keen on stoning adulterers. Not good, but not suicide bombers, either.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_Brotherhood [wikipedia.org]
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If you look at some of my other posts I basically say the same thing. I never said they were terrorists. I just don't want to see Egypt become a religion run country - no matter what religion. It needs to stay secular.
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I agree it should stay secular. However, that is not for us to decide. It won't be the end of the world if the Egyptians democratically elect a government run by the Muslim Brotherhood. The one thing Egyptians won't stand for at this point is anything that takes their hard-won democracy from them. They might accept or even desire a religious country, but not one that forbids democratic elections. Therefore, while we may comment on what we would like to see in the region, we have no excuse to step in and tak
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I agree 100% (and said something similar in another post). We can wish and hope they do the "right" thing in our opinion but it's their country and this revolution is about them making the choices.
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I really believe that most Americans think as you and I do, it is only our leaders who believe in the primacy of realpolitik. They think we are idealistic and stupid for believing that people in other countries should get to pick their own government even if that government is not pro-US-business-interests. Well, I think they are pompous, egotistical ass-clowns who shouldn't be allowed to drive a car, let alone run a country.
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I actually say that in several of my other posts. I think this country is a mess with the way religion is seeping into our politics and education system.
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"Hey Vito Umar, you'se 'sposed ta git uz a suicide bomber today, wha' happon?"
"Yo, Vinnie Usaed, I called up Fat Faheyed, but da moron had is own phone hooked to da bomb man! It blowed 'im all da way to Allah!"
"Oh Vito, I tol' you Fat Faheyed was a idjit! Why you use 'im mon?"
"I'm so sorry Vinnie, but 'e let me feel up 'is goilfren UNDER her Burka! I had to use him!"
"Dats ok Vito, we'll jus' stone da chick an' yo honor will be restored"
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If they're the same as the Southern Baptists, it's no wonder the US is scared witless. <sarcasm>
Seriously, it doesn't matter who ends up with control, what matters is that there will now be a highly unstable period in which the prior owners of the hardware could potentially walk off with it and/or sell it to someone it shouldn't. It's absolutely certain, in any dictatorship, that there'll be people in the old regime who will absolutely not want the new regime having any such device.
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Really? Because the army sure appears to be on the side of stability, and I imagine they are the ones with control over any dangerous hardware. When was the last time someone toppled a strongman, and other bad guys got his weaponry?
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Whatever, I meant "mandatory full-coverage female clothing." I'd rather not see a people try to limit what anyone can wear, it just seems a bit old fashioned.
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Right exactly. As much as I don't think anybody outside of the middle east wants to see them win the elections there is nothing we or should do if they do win. From what I understand they really aren't that popular. They'll win some seats but not likely a majority.
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From what I understand they really aren't that popular. They'll win some seats but not likely a majority.
That's not what I'm reading. They would probably win a majority and certainly would achieve a plurality.
Largely better educated that most of the region, you would expect Egypt to be able to look around and see the situation in other Muslim Theocracies. However if the brotherhood comes up with a slate of candidates promising jobs, medical clinics, lower prices, etc all bets are off. These tactics have worked in Lebanon, Syria, Gaza, etc.
Within two years, Egypt will become another Muslim Theocracy, and the
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I don't think the military is that radicalized and I doubt that they will sit something like you describe out (I think it is rather obvious that the non-action of the military has played a big role the last few weeks).
The Iranian military sat out their revolution didn't they? They were even less radicalized. They were swiftly neutralized.
They now are totally cowed by the Army of the Guardians of the Islamic Revolution [wikipedia.org]. The Shaw was deposed in January of 1979. The Iranian Revolutionary Guards were created in May of the same year. Their initial purpose was to control the Army. They now control the Country, and report not to the Government, but to the Theocracy.
Watch and see if something similar forms in the next 4 m
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That's what everyone said about Hamas and look what happened there.
Do not put it past them to use other groups to get a majority win. The ends justify the means and there are many socialist groups teaming up with them because they think it'll help the people. As soon as they're in power, it's game over.
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Well, you gotta admit....islam's current track record isn't exactly the best in the world. The rules, their rulers and interactions with the free world leave a great deal to be desired so far.
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How can they win the election when they said they won't present a candidate?
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There is more to a government than a president. I think when either of us say "winning" an election we are referring not just to the presidency but whatever legislative branch they decide on.
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How can they win the election when they said they won't present a candidate?
And you believed that?
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You might want to look up who the Muslim Brotherhood is. Nobody said no Muslims in government. It's the name of an opposition group that many, including myself, would be a step backwards for Egypt when it comes to freedom and equality.
A little research goes a long way from making yourself look foolish (even as an AC).
Stock down (Score:2)
Narus stock then dipped as expectations of domestic sales tanked.
But what about profits? (Score:2)
If we don't provide technology to be used by human rights abusers, then someone else will! I thought preserving profits was an implicit part of the golden rule. (He who has the gold makes the rules).
That "Worried" Blogger is FUD (Score:5, Informative)
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This is hardly unique to Egypt and is more likely to be a near universal issue. How to establis
Government hypocrisy strikes again (Score:2)
Any guesses as to whether these congress liars support the USA's foreign aid given backing the same dictator over the past 30 years?
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Something neither the anti-obama ranters nor the liberals "get" is that in the long run, America is only there for the Suez Canal, and would support whoever it takes to keep oil flowing through it. When the public gets around to electing someone else, we'll support them too, unless they stop keeping the Canal open again, in which case we take back all their toys.
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It is kind of strange that they would get mad a US corporation for helping out someone they've been helping out for decades. I'm sure they would have approved of the sale at the time. I guess they just look at it as a nice excuse to drive more companies out of the states.
Sad but not unexpected (Score:4, Insightful)
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It seems there is now a push for stronger controls and monitoring for technology exports 'that would provide a national strategy to prevent the use of American technology from being used by human rights abusers.'"
Fuck monitoring and controlling exports! I want want a push for stronger controls on and monitoring of human rights abusers here in America. Ever heard of the NSA you hypocritical fuckwit Congress-critters? Or is it okay because they import their equipment from China? So as long as American technology isn't being used to spy on American citizens, it's all fine and dandy? Fucking assholes.
Truth and reconciliation will come in time... (Score:2)
Human rights abusers.. (Score:2)
Like the US?
The deeper you dig, the stronger the stench!
Egypt's Military, Inc. (Score:5, Informative)
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So, now they are governed by real free market entusiasts?
Now, seriously, the military took the government the day they stood between the people and the government goons, and stopped the violence. Now we'll see if they are really on the people's side.
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This is not only because the military supports the people
Egypt has universal conscription for its military. So, the military are the people. Some kid doing his stint is very reluctant to shoot at his parents, aunts, uncles, nieces, nephews, etc.
Actually the reports that I saw on CNN said that the military was distributing, not selling, water and food. And that they built places for the protesters to wash. People who really lost out are the ones in the tourist industry. Planes were flying from where I live empty, and returning with tourists anxious to get ou
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A bit hypocritical to hold hearings about this (Score:5, Insightful)
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...given the billions of dollars in military aid and training the USA has offered to Mubarak's regime - the teargas branded "made in USA" was just the obvious part.
You mean the military aid and training that went to the Egyptian military who have remained pretty neutral throughout the ordeal? Perhaps Egypt should have purchased weapons from the Russians instead?
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Don't take this personally.
But for everyone who is trying to give credit to the United States for giving tens of billions in military equipment to a regime that's been murdering it's own citizens for thirty years, fuck you. It's like giving kudos to the NRA for putting guns in the hands of idiots, and then congratulating them the one time someone uses it for good and simultaneously ignoring the tens of thousands of times it ended in tragedy.
And yes, in fact, there have been a few bloodless revolutions [wikipedia.org] bac
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Actually, I think his point was a response to the initial assertion that because we sold weapons to the Egyptian military, we were supporting or even helping to cause oppression.
The fact is that the oppression started before the US or even the Soviets started selling arms to Egypt. Nasser started off having some western equipment, then he became a Soviet client. Sadat continued that and then after the Peace Accords he brought Egypt closer to the US. Mubarak brought Egypt all the way to the US sphere.
In a
What about cracking down on Siemens? (Score:2)
http://www.spiegel.de/international/business/0,1518,710810,00.html [spiegel.de]
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Siemens is a German company.
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In case you didn't know, they are a global company with US offices and are subject to US laws and restrictions. http://www.usa.siemens.com/ [siemens.com]
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Yes but it is a lot harder for the US Congress to "crack down" on what a German company sells in other countries. I suppose they could kick their US subsidiary out but that would be incredibly unusual.
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If China can fine Walmart http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/g/a/2011/01/26/bloomberg1376-LFM8EF6JTSEA01-198KCAIC8BBDM0DUFP7VNMOL1J.DTL [sfgate.com] what's to prevent us from doing the same with a company that conducts work that supports foreign programs in violation of programs such as the NPT and the Comprehensive Iran Sanctions, Accountability, and Divestment Act of 2010?
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If China jumped off a bridge should the US do it, too? I didn't say we couldn't impose fines and other restrictions but we can't outright ban what they sell to other countries.
The final question (Score:2)
The final question in the grilling by Reps. Chris Smith and Bill Keating to Deputy Secretary of State James Steinberg...
"So, how much does this cost and why don't we have it in place here already?"
Military control (Score:3)
Yes, it is a little scary to think that the military might use this opportunity to take control, but I think there are a few reasons we don't need to worry about that.
1. The military is nearly all conscripts. When Mubarak asked the military to push back the protesters, the soldiers instead participated. I'm willing to trust that they are on the side of the people in this case.
2. The US will never stand for the military taking power, and at $1.3 billion per year, I think the military will listen.
For right now, I think we are just going to have to trust that the military is going to help foster Egypt's transition to democracy because there isn't anyone else that has the capability.
Closing the barn door ... Hacktivismo warned us (Score:2)
Oh puuuuhleaze! (Score:2)
Oh please.
This has been done on a massive scale by CISCO to China ever since the DOT com crash in 2001. It is probably the only reason why the company hasn't declared bankruptcy or wasn't bought out since then.
At least I do not know any of my friends who buy CISCO closed proprietary crap for their networks, so I am not sure how this company continues to stay in business.
Although, I seen a CISCO camera at Office Max (it was crap), so maybe they have other ways of ripping off people while they are not sellin
With out a *hint* of irony (Score:3, Interesting)
"now a push for stronger controls and monitoring for technology exports 'that would provide a national strategy to prevent the use of American technology from being used by human rights abusers.'"
Where is the grilling of our own country's use of this technology to spy on our citizens? Yeah, I thought so, not a single word. That'd be looking in the past and we never do that. Nope never...
Honestly, this is consistent with what the US has been saying for the past 10 years on any human rights abuse. We've continued to rack up our own abuses and as long as the targets are "terrorists" or "Muslims" or whatever the current boogeyman, it's OK if the US does these things. Meanwhile, out of the other side of our mouth, while we continue these abusive and repressive tactics, we have the gall to point the finger at other countries, ones who we even have supported and ASKED to do our repression because it gives the US some value, we point our finger and tsk tsk tsk, spying, invasion of privacy, these are the things of tyrants and dictators... let the sound of freedom ring...
Nope, not even a hint of irony there...
Google (Score:3)
In other news: Google has, as of yesterday, started to actively report Chinese users or proxies/VPN's to the Chinese government. Can we be upset about this please? As someone living in China the last thing I need is Google as a government agent..
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Does this include the annoyingly named, "Great Firewall of China" that U.S. tech companies built?
No, because we have no evidence* of human rights abuses in China.
*Because we refuse to look.
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Yes we should be upset when it's used on us, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't care when it's used elsewhere.
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Exactly.
And the same congress grilling the State Department will have an Internet "Kill Switch" [switched.com] bill on the agenda soon. Don't expect any consistency in these congressmen's positions when it does.
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Domestic use of DPI still perfectly acceptable.
DPI is a tool. It can be used for good things or bad things, just like any other tool.
Waterboarding requires water, a cloth mask, and a board. Let's ban exports of lumber, cloth, and water, ok?
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Remember, when you are at work, the Constitution does not apply. If your company has a policy wherein employee phone calls, e-mail, or other communications may be monitored, game on.
I do find it strange that Narus is owned by Boeing. That place always was (and still is) a major information leak.