Facebook Postings Lead To Arrest for Heresy In the West Bank 496
forand writes "Using screen shots of a customer's Facebook profile, owners of a West Bank internet cafe helped Palestinian intelligence forces capture a man accused of heresy." According to sources quoted in the story, residents of both Gaza and the West Bank face ongoing scrutiny of their online activities; in Gaza, "Internet cafe owners are forced to monitor customers' online activity and alert intelligence officials if they see anything critical of the militant group or that violates Hamas' stern interpretation of Islam."
Barbarians... (Score:5, Insightful)
...is what they are! This shows how dangerously crazy these people are. They are the enemies of freedom like all religious fanatics! Anybody who thinks people should be locked up for life or even murdered because of antireligious religious statements are people that are enemies of western values. The problem is that we have no good way of dealing with these lunatics when large parts of entire societies are thinking like this. It's like the West in the Middle Ages.
Isn't freedom great? (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm glad to know that this is the kind of freedom the brave Palestinian fighters are fighting Israel for. To have a Taliban lifestyle imposed on themselves.
hooray! (Score:0, Insightful)
Once again Islam has proven itself to be a religion of peace that teaches tolerance and acceptance.
And they have the audacity to question the ridicule at their expense in the civilized west.
Re:No religious freedom is hard over there... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Not like cowardly Westerners (Score:5, Insightful)
I agree.. if western cultures defended freedom with the same vigilance (not the same methods) as hamas, hamas wouldn't exist..
Re:No religious freedom is hard over there... (Score:4, Insightful)
how so? shouldn't you have the right not to be forced to believe whatever religion is the fad? the freedom to worship also means the freedom not to be forced to do so.
Re:It's not just in the Palestinian territories (Score:5, Insightful)
The problem is with theocratic governments, it doesn't matter in the least what the actual religion is.
Re:Barbarians... (Score:4, Insightful)
The problem is that we have no good way of dealing with these lunatics when large parts of entire societies are thinking like this.
Sure there is: separation. If you happen to live in a western democracy, don't let your freedoms slip away. Make sure your democracy stays one (as in eternal vigilance). Don't vote for people who want to remove personal freedoms or democratic rights. If you vote for someone & they do, don't vote for them again. Ever. Period.
If people in other countries want to subject themselves to religious law, let them. If that makes them 'lose contact' with the rest of the world, and economic consequences puts them back in the middle ages, that's mostly their problem. If they do want to join the rest of us: shape up in the personal freedoms / democratic department first. In the mean while, they can take the freedoms that my ancestors fought for, from my cold, dead hands.
Re:Barbarians... (Score:5, Insightful)
"... antireligious religious statements are people that are enemies of western values. ..."
Are you so sure that "western values" are that much better? There are far too many people in "western culture" promoting "western values" who sincerely believe that "western values" dictate an implicit Judeo-Christian underpinning to government and law, and that everyone else deserves to die, or at least be subjugated.
I think we need to coin the phrase "MODERN values" as something which goes beyond "western", "eastern", "southern" or "northern" values (notice how some of those don't really evoke any specific meaning?). This new phrase would embody the implicit expectation of freedom FROM religion -- more than the current standard freedom OF religion. It's a fallacy that everyone has to choose sides amongst the various bronze-age sky-god belief systems.
Re:It's not just in the Palestinian territories (Score:5, Insightful)
It's not the particular religion that's the issue, it's the development level of the countries. I'm too lazy to elucidate the whole argument right now, but in a nutshell: look at the extreme forms of Christianity practised by some in Africa.
And yet the development level of Saudi Arabia - one of the strictest practitioners of Sharia in its most extreme, literalist forms - is way above many Latin American countries, for example; and yet the latter do not stone people to death for homosexuality, or amputate hands and feet for theft. Ditto for Iran.
Re:Isn't freedom great? (Score:5, Insightful)
A SERMON ON ETHICS AND LOVE
One day Mal-2 asked the messenger spirit Saint Gulik to approach the Goddess and request Her presence for some desperate advice. Shortly afterwards the radio came on by itself, and an ethereal female Voice said YES?
"O! Eris! Blessed Mother of Man! Queen of Chaos! Daughter of Discord! Concubine of Confusion! O! Exquisite Lady, I beseech You to lift a heavy burden from my heart!"
WHAT BOTHERS YOU, MAL? YOU DON'T SOUND WELL.
"I am filled with fear and tormented with terrible visions of pain. Everywhere people are hurting one another, the planet is rampant with injustices, whole societies plunder groups of their own people, mothers imprison sons, children perish while brothers war. O, woe."
WHAT IS THE MATTER WITH THAT, IF IT IS WHAT YOU WANT TO DO?
"But nobody Wants it! Everybody hates it."
OH. WELL, THEN STOP.
At which moment She turned herself into an aspirin commercial and left The Polyfather stranded alone with his species.
Re:Isn't freedom great? (Score:3, Insightful)
You actually arguing with someone from Israel over Israeli laws? Does the pit of arrogant ignorance of Slashdotters even *have* a bottom?
#declare "metrix007" = "complete shithead"
Re:It's not just in the Palestinian territories (Score:5, Insightful)
Sadly, the problem is with islamism (and maybe with islam).
No, the problem is with god botherers in general.
You forgot to include Ireland up there in your list. You can be fined 25,000 euros if you renounce the Sacraments, etc.
Here in the States, there are people clamoring to bring our country into some sort of religious theocratic throwback to the 12'th century. Some of them even sponsor "prayer breakfasts" for our esteemed legislators.
Google "Dominionism" and "The Family" (The so-called "Christian" group that incited Uganda to kill gays), Focus on the Family, Christian Coalition, etc.
Talibanistic fundamentalism is only just below the surface just about everywhere. It only takes a little bit of tipping the table to have it spring full force to the surface.
--
BMO
Another example of US myopia (Score:4, Insightful)
Meanwhile a family was evacuated from his house in Jerusalem where he lived for 30 years to make way for a settler family last week. A peaceful protest was broken up in Bil’in by tear gas and riot police.
Extremist settlers burned a Jerusalem church
Settlers spray graffiti on mosque in Nablus,
run over a man in Qalqiliya,
attack a teenager in Hebron
and the IDF assasinates two people in Gaza last week
but what do we read about that in the US? No, of course not. That would be too much reality for Americans. Instead we get a story about how those Hamas fiends are cracking down on the internet cafes. We get stories about bad the Iranians are to their women. Its as if they only perspective we get is one that shows us that these 'people' have a archaic, violent culture....ignore the 60 year occupation, ignore the two wars that US just launched over there, lets pick apart and find fault in THEIR culture. They're the violent people! Yeah right...
Theres a great film on You Tube called 'Planet of the Arab', check it out sometime.
http://mondoweiss.net/
Re:Barbarians... (Score:5, Insightful)
We, ourselves, are not free from this. Look at the amount of "kill brown people" posts that topics like this brings up every time on slashdot. The true root of barbarism is an unreflected "We are different, therefore you are inferior". This mechanism exists entirely independent of religion, though I agree that religion mostly does not help.
Re:Barbarians... (Score:4, Insightful)
One thing that Levinas defines as universally bad is "causing suffering and humiliation" (unwanted of course, BDSM folks are obvious exceptions). But in this case, this is not enough. One might claim that the offending facebook post caused him undue mental torment. Levinas also has a positive definition of ethics. As I said, "Totality and Infinity" is one of the most difficult books I ever read, so this short summary doesn't do justice for its complexitiy and richness. However, I'll try.
Basically, he says that we have to have an infinite desire for the Other - which includes the desire for the Other's otherness as well. Sounds redundant, I know, but bear with me for a moment. This desire has two components, one is the desire to know (that is, basic human curiousity) and the other is the desire to preserve the otherness of the Other. An opposing movement is what he calls a totalizing movement. He defines it by the presumption that we can have total knowledge of the Other, that is, we can strip the Other of all it's secrets, achieving a total knowledge of the other (therefore robbing it from it's very otherness: once we believe that our knowledge of the other is Total, the image we have and It becomes the same). At this point he introduces the metaphor of the Face of the Other, and the movement towards the other as communication (we question the other to know more). In fact, he says that this otherness is the very basis of communication - once the Other has no secrets, there isn't much to talk about. Therefore we question the Other to know more (curiousity) but also question the totality of our knowledge at every point, simultaneously possessing the desire to preserve some measure of otherness.
I know all this seems far fetched, but the point, I believe, is that curiousity is one leg on which ethical behaviour stands on, the other being not only a respect for the otherness of the Other, but even love for this otherness, that feeds back to our own curiosity, keeping the discourse on going. The first step of every authoritarian entity is to deny the possiblity of discourse, to forbid language so to speak, the very means by which otherness can be expressed, approached, and cherished.
Levinas himself was religious (jew) - but interestingly, according to his own tenets, one can deduce that religions in general are totalizing - they do not allow for an infinite universe. Well, of course I don't know all religions, but let's just say that all religions that pose an entity that possesses a totality of knowledge, an All Knowing God are by nature totalizing. In an infinite universe, such totality is impossible. In fact, the very definition of infinity is something beyond (+1), something that is not part of the totality of any system. The Other's secret that must be preserved as well as approached via discourse.
Anyway, I'm not sure this all makes sense to anybody, but if you want to read an intellectually challenging book, I highly recommend Totality and Infinity. As far as I know, it's one of the very few attempts to define ethics in absolute terms... most of what we consider "western values" are relativistic, their truth(s) easily traced back to a very specific context, to an ontology.
Re:Barbarians... (Score:4, Insightful)
Western values?
haha.
Like the West in the Middle Ages? Not now?
I love how apparently the West now has a peaceful culture. The past 500 years of genoicde and slavery apparently dont count ..those 2 countries we're occupying now, you know us peaceful Westerns with the nuclear weapons, who have 700 miltary bases and who spend a trillion dollars on weapons were peaceful...its those muslims...they're the ones trying to take over the world!
really? Do you actually believe what you're saying? Please a read a world history. Try RM Roberts...read it from cover to cover, get some perspective
Re:Not like cowardly Westerners (Score:5, Insightful)
From the article:
The media in the Palestinian Authority, as in the Arab world in general, are largely government-controlled, driving dissenting voices to the relative freedom of the Internet. The blogger's arrest showed a willingness on the part of the Palestinian government to clamp down on freedom of speech on the Web as well. He now faces a potential life prison sentence on heresy charges for "insulting the divine essence."
Many in this conservative Muslim town say that isn't enough, and suggested he should be killed for renouncing Islam. Even family members say he should remain behind bars for life.
"He should be burned to death," said Abdul-Latif Dahoud, a 35-year-old Qalqiliya resident. The execution should take place in public "to be an example to others," he added.
Few have come forward to defend him. One was Zainab Rashid, a liberal Palestinian commentator, who wrote in an online opinion piece that Husayin had made the important point that "criticizing religious texts for their (intellectual) weakness can only be combatted by ... oppression, prison and execution." ...
Gaza's Hamas rulers also stalk Facebook pages for suspected dissenters, said Palestinian rights activist Mustafa Ibrahim. He said Internet cafe owners are forced to monitor customers' online activity and alert intelligence officials if they see anything critical of the militant group or that violates Hamas' stern interpretation of Islam.
Freedom. I do not think this word means what you think it means.
Re:Isn't freedom great? (Score:5, Insightful)
Way to go shifting the base of the argument. The statement in question read: "Blasphemy is illegal in Israel as well." This is a blatant lie. Find me in the Israeli law code anything banning blasphemy. Everything else you quote--the loyalty oath recognizing Israel as a Jewish state--is wholly irrelevant to this matter. Stick with the subject without resorting to strawmen to try and bolster your argument.
Re:Another example of US myopia (Score:5, Insightful)
"ignore the two wars that US just launched over there"
The US is in Iraq & Afghanistan. This atheist blogger incident took place in the West Bank. I feel like you're trying to be misleading when you deliberately confuse these two pieces of information or try to turn into a "West vs Arab" attack comment.
This isn't some childish game where both parties can erase their crimes by making longer lists of the other side's faults. If person A steals 5 cars, person B doesn't get a free pass to steal 4 cars and yell like a crazy person when they get caught and always trying to deflect attention to person A's crime. Both are guilty of what they have done wrong.
You seem to have forgotten this. And I feel like you're trying to deceive me.
Re:Isn't freedom great? (Score:5, Insightful)
Please re-read what you wrote:
Mordechai Vanunu "revealed details of Israel's nuclear weapons program". Now, I don't care /what/ his motive was; the fact is, he was convicted of treason and endangering national security after he revealed confidential, strategic information. There's not much to argue about that.
Regarding the Ariel boycotters, where in the article does it mention that under Israeli law, what they are doing is illegal (or 'ILLEGAL')? That's a lone Israeli politician Avigdor Lieberman expressing his opinion that the boycotters should be denied Government funding. No mention of 'illegal' there.
Regarding Emily Henochowicz, that is tragic.
Anyway, I see your posts here and notice you consistently temper blatant falsehoods with sob stories (however true). I encourage you to please remove emotion from your argument if you want to be taken seriously.
Re:Not like cowardly Westerners (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Isn't freedom great? (Score:1, Insightful)
Everything else you quote--the loyalty oath recognizing Israel as a Jewish state--is wholly irrelevant to this matter.
Forcing people to pledge in support of a religion is essentially no different than banning people from speaking against a religion.
Re:Not like cowardly Westerners (Score:3, Insightful)
War is won by the most violent -- Clausewitz
Re:Another example of US myopia (Score:4, Insightful)
I am not trying decieve you.
re-read the comments...90% of them didn't comment on the West Bank..they went off about 'how Islam is dangerous and bad' and 'its not compatible with the West' blah, blah....
there is memme thats been building in the US, especially in the past year about how threatening Islam is to us! That doesnt stand up to scrunity of History..be in the far past or recent events.
It only serves to demonize the people we have gone or will go to war with...
Whether this is how America is going to collectively deal with the hangover from Iraq or whether its purposeful seeds being planted for a war with Iran....I dont know.
You should consider this whenever you read the news. Before it was the muslims it was Commies, then it was Yellow Peril, then it was remember the Maine and on and on....
Right now there is a poster in Times Square about Iran and how we shouldnt let them get a nuclear
weapon. Somebody paid a lot of money for that ad, yet they seemingly arent selling anything. Why? Whats in it for them?
Not to ramble, but when I see a story about how Hamas is abusing Palestenians, and I see the knee jerk reactions from people. I wonder what would be the reaction if 100X other stories I know happened there, that I read about on mondoweiss.net were more distributed? And how come I never see those stories outside of niche blogs? Why are the only stories the ones that make it to wider public ones that make the muslims seem barbaric?
Re:Not like cowardly Westerners (Score:4, Insightful)
That "country" is oppressed because that "country" is at war with Israel and these sort of people given more freedoms would be wiping the Israelis out with even greater enthusiasm than wiping out their own heretics.
If you think they're just going change and be so nice to Jews, Christians and pagans you should take a really close look at the history of Islam.
If they don't change their popular core beliefs you will always have problems with them:
http://www.tawfikhamid.com/abcs-test-for-radical-islam/ [tawfikhamid.com]
Re:Not like cowardly Westerners (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Not like cowardly Westerners (Score:3, Insightful)
If Palestinians want to govern themselves, they have to prove to Israel that they can guarantee Israel's security, and they have to prove to the rest of the world that they can be considered a legitimate government. That's just the facts. They are failing on both accounts.
And you're right that this being an Islamic government is responsible for people in the West not supporting them, because nearly all Muslim governments are highly intolerant of other religions and intrinsically undemocratic. Why should I want to support governments that want to imprison or kill me for my religious beliefs? I will not put my support behind an Islamic government of any form because such governments have never worked. If they want my political support, these people need to start separating church and state. Frankly, I prefer an occupied Palestine to a Palestine governed by Islamic fundamentalists.
Re:Isn't freedom great? (Score:2, Insightful)
What about holocaust denial?
Re:Barbarians... (Score:4, Insightful)
Anybody who thinks people should be locked up for life or even murdered because of antireligious religious statements are people that are enemies of western values.
What western values wold those be then? The values that allow us to invade other countries, killing 10's of thousands, just so rich old men can be richer, and then pass it off a few years later as an unfortunate mistake (haha! oops!) and let's never mentioned that again? Have we advanced beyond barbarism ourselves? What's the difference? And what's the difference between their fanatics and our own secular fanatics - you know, the ones who will not permit anything to be done about climate change because it might cost us money Do you imagine our crimes to be less barbarous, our fanaticism less damaging then theirs?
Re:Barbarians... (Score:3, Insightful)
When's the last time someone was jailed in the US for saying bad things about Jeebus?
Certainly you wouldn't have quite so many calling for indefinite imprisonment (or death) for such a little thing.
Re:Barbarians... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Isn't freedom great? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:It's not just in the Palestinian territories (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Not like cowardly Westerners (Score:5, Insightful)
And if the queen had balls, she'd be king.
If "western cultures" "defended" "freedom" with the same "vigilance" as Hamas, then they wouldn't be cultures worth defending.
It bugs me when people write shit because it sound noble, but don't think about what it means.
How do you "defend freedom" anyway? Is "by making sure a mosque can be built on private property in Lower Manhattan" anywhere on the list of "defending freedom"?
Re:Not like cowardly Westerners (Score:3, Insightful)
Think about what you're saying.
Re:Not like cowardly Westerners (Score:4, Insightful)
If Palestinians want to govern themselves, they have to prove to Israel that they can guarantee Israel's security, and they have to prove to the rest of the world that they can be considered a legitimate government
That's exactly what we said about another country, a bit over 200 years ago.
-- The British Government
Re:I am shocked. (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Barbarians... (Score:2, Insightful)
The problem with waiting for them to go to war and lose is that even in losing they cause a lot of damage, and in losing they are not all wiped out. Long term, Islam and civilization are mutually exclusive. Currently, civilization is losing.
Really? So you think that "Islam" has contributed nothing to civilization. Interesting...
History, of course, would indicate otherwise, but when one's view of "Islam" is shaped by Fox News, its tough to pick up on those subtle details. One won't learn from Bill O'Reilly that while the "western world" was wallowing in the mud of the middle ages, largely ignorant and illiterate, the academic center of the world was in a region populated largely by... (OMG!) Muslims. To be sure, the Middle East has fallen on hard times, culturally. The advances which that region brought to the world began to decline about the same time that the influence of the clerics, upon government and law, began it's ascent. One can see the very same phenomenon, albeit only in it's nascent stages, in the U.S. Anti-intellectualism and religious fundamentalism are on the rise. I'd say that the people who think The Creationist Museum are a pretty neat idea are the real enemies of civilization.
Re:Not like cowardly Westerners (Score:3, Insightful)
"fighting for liberty"
I don't know how old you are, but seriously at some point you have to understand the difference between the image and the reality.
"fighting for liberty"
thats the image you're taught...the reality is slavery, no sufferage for women, genoicde of native americans.
Its important to reconize that as its all over history and current events...Image = Operation Iraqi freedom! Reality = see wikileaks
Image= Our great democratic ally and bastion of freedom in the Middle East..Reality=Israel who has the most UN resolutions against it in the world...and who is ethnically cleansing the native people of the area.
Seriously, turn off the TV for a few weeks and thing about the world using your own mind instead of just repeating slogans like 'Americans were fighting for liberty ..."
Re:Not like cowardly Westerners (Score:2, Insightful)
Gaza is oppressed because Israel has been trying unsuccessfully for over 40 years to annex as much of it as possible with as few non-Jews as possible. Since the people of Gaza have steadfastly refused and made it impossible for Israel to achieve her goals, Israel is now deliberately starving the population.
Hamas was only created after about 20 years of such oppression.
Re:Not like cowardly Westerners (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Barbarians... (Score:5, Insightful)
The accomplishments you speak of aren't attributable to Islam any more than the Renaissance is attributable to Christianity.
Re:Not like cowardly Westerners (Score:4, Insightful)
I'm afraid I can't take you seriously if you think that Hamas is thing restricting freedom from the Palestenians.
I'm afraid I can't take you seriously if you think that it's a binary issue. Because the Israelis are doing bad things, Hamas must be pure and good?
Re:Not like cowardly Westerners (Score:3, Insightful)
You can criticize Israel for its blockade, for its demolition of houses, for its wall, and for a whole host of other abuses it has indeed committed, and should be ashamed of. But when it comes to Hamas oppressing people for trying to speak out freely and practice (or not practice) Islam in the way they wish, Israel has absolutely no say in this, and their occupation is entirely tangential to the issue at hand in this article.
Smiths, you are the one who needs to step back and realize that you have become entrenched by an ideology.
Re:Not like cowardly Westerners (Score:5, Insightful)
You've fallen into the same classic trap as a lot of conservative thinkers. Tyranny and freedom are opposites. Tyranny of the majority is tyranny. Therefore, they are not free in any meaningful sense of the word.
More importantly, such tyranny is unsustainable. In a few hundred years, when the Catholic, Jewish, or Buddhist minority population explodes (and this is a likely scenario---minorities tend to have lower income, and people with lower income often produce more offspring), at some magic point, the Muslims will be in the minority. You can safely assume that at this point, the oppressed will turn on their oppressors and pass laws that oppress them in turn. Eventually, equilibrium will be achieved, but can the human race really be expected to have the patience to wait that long while people commit heinous acts of murder in the name of God?
See, here's the thing. As far as I'm concerned, if you're killing someone for God, you're not reading your scripture correctly. Those rules were not written by God. They were written by man in a time that rightfully should be left in the past. Ask yourself this: if Muslims believe that Jesus was a prophet, how can they ignore his teachings so willingly? The good Samaritan, for example, preaches religious tolerance; the man Jesus chose to uphold as an example of how to live was of a people that his apostles would despise, in part due to religious differences, and who would have despised the man he helped because of similar differences.
There are many, many more examples of this---so much so that anyone who requires death over differing religious beliefs has blinders on, focusing on a tiny section of their religious text to the exclusion of the majority of it. In short, those who would kill in God's name, by doing so, blaspheme it, and should, by their same standards, be put to death. There's some irony for you.
Re:BURN EVERYONE!!!! (Score:3, Insightful)
My point was that muslims first have to deal with the "ABC"s as per the link. If they continue to hold those beliefs, they will continue cause problems.
And as long as most Palestinians hold on to these "ABC"s they contribute to the Palestinian problem.
I'm not a huge supporter of Israel at all, but I sure understand why they do what they do. It's like you fighting with someone, if he:
1) Doesn't promise to not kill you.
2) Keeps hitting you and trying to kill you whenever you let him go.
It's pretty understandable if you put a choke-hold on him and not let go. Not pleasant to watch, but from what I see many of the Palestinians and their supporters share a HUGE part of the blame for their situation.
Israel seems to get on reasonably with Egypt and Jordan, after both agreed to make peace with Israel. But the rest of the Arab/muslim nations including the Palestinians refuse to recognize Israel and they want to eliminate Israel.
So why is anyone surprised when Israel does not want to loosen their chokehold on the Palestinians?
See this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_conflict#Camp_David_Summit_.282000.29 [wikipedia.org]
In July 2000, U.S. President Bill Clinton convened a peace summit between Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat and Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak. Barak reportedly offered the Palestinian leader approximately 95% of the West Bank and Gaza Strip, as well as Palestinian sovereignty over East Jerusalem,[13] and that 69 Jewish settlements (which comprise 85% of the West Bank's Jewish settlers) would be ceded to Israel. He also proposed "temporary Israeli control" indefinitely over another 10% of the West Bank territory--an area including many more Jewish settlements. According to Palestinian sources, the remaining area would be under Palestinian control, yet certain areas would be broken up by Israeli bypass roads and checkpoints. Depending on how the security roads would be configured, these Israeli roads might impede free travel by Palestinians throughout their proposed nation and reduce the ability to absorb Palestinian refugees.
Arafat rejected this offer. President Clinton reportedly requested that Arafat make a counter-offer, but he proposed none. Former Israeli Foreign Minister Shlomo Ben Ami who kept a diary of the negotiations said in an interview in 2001, when asked whether the Palestinians made a counterproposal: "No. And that is the heart of the matter. Never, in the negotiations between us and the Palestinians, was there a Palestinian counterproposal."
They rejected that offer. Why don't they make a counterproposal? The Palestinians don't really want to make peace with Israel. To them peace = Israel wiped out.
Hamas certainly don't want peace with Israel, as long as they follow their own charter, any peace they make with Israel can only be temporary: http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp [yale.edu]
Yes it's pretty nasty what Israel is doing to the Palestinians, slowly strangling someone is nasty. But what should they do? The Palestinians themselves don't really want to make peace with Israel (as long as killing Jews is considered part of your religion, go figure how long that peace will last).
As for the USA, sure they give aid to Israel (3 billion a year). But guess what, they also give Egypt about a billion a year too (they also give Jordan some money). You can say it's unfair that the USA gives Israel more money, but go visit both Israel and Egypt, compare how well each has been managing their resources, people and wealth.
From a secular perspective being a citizen of Israel would be better than being a citizen of "Greater Palestine" ruled by Hamas (assuming Israel is gone). Plenty of evidence - this "arrested for heresy" story is just one.
But it doesn't look like most Palestinians see it that way, they'd rather wipe out Israel and be ruled/oppressed by Hamas or similar. That is their dream.
Re:Not like cowardly Westerners (Score:2, Insightful)
FUCK YOU. Fuck you. Fuck you. Fuck you. Fuck you. Fuck you. Fuck you. Fuck you. Fuck you. Fuck you. Fuck you. Fuck you. Fuck you. Fuck you. Fuck you. Fuck you. Fuck you. Fuck you. Fuck you. Fuck you. Fuck you. Fuck you.
SERIOUSLY DUDE, FUCK YOU!
Hint 1: WHO THE FUCK IS ISRAEL?
Hint 2: Look up the dictionary for SOVEREIGNITY
Hint 3: FUCK YOU.
Re:Barbarians... (Score:3, Insightful)
Airdrop internet enabled cellphones. Lots of them. Access to all ideas and the ability to post undeletable photographic evidence of all shit going on. Think "Singularity Sky"...
Why? I mean what good would that do here? I thought the Internet itself was supposed to bring enlightenment across the world? It spreads information, not truth. People choose what to believe based on the worst possible logic. If we jacked everyone's brain directly into the thing would that finally do it? Look at the bullcrap in ONE Slashdot forum. Does the Internet really solve the problem you think it does?
Maybe you just don't understand what makes people tick.
Not exactly (Score:3, Insightful)
If it were that you were granted the right of "freedom of religion" then extra laws would not be required: all corporations and individuals would be also bound to respect it. The difference might be subtle but in the current climate of increasing corporate power it may turn out to be a very important one.
Re:Not like cowardly Westerners (Score:3, Insightful)
If they want my political support, these people need to start separating church and state.
The separation of Church and state in the United States was a wonderful idea of the Founding Fathers, but it is not something that is common throughout the Western world. England has the Church of England [wikipedia.org], Finland has the Church of Finland [wikipedia.org], etc, and when it comes to the separation of politics and religion, there are many Christian political parties [wikipedia.org] that wield power in government.
Given that we have not yet achieved a complete separation of Church and state in the West, I think it is somewhat unrealistic to think that Muslim countries are going to be so forward thinking.
Re:Not like cowardly Westerners (Score:2, Insightful)
No Hamas is not pure and good..but this story IMO is not the most important thing Americans should be aware of RE I/P.
In the US you will read endless stories about how bad hamas is, how crazy those muslims, but Americans will get very little of the reality of what I/P is about, a reality that the rest of world is well aware of.
I was in the WTC for both attacks. Afterwards I investigated why we were attacked. The terrorists said we were attacked because of support for Israel. The govt and media said we were attacked because they hate our freedom. That is a lie.
Our policy towards I/P hasent changed a lick since 9/11. Now after we kill all the "terrorists"...were up to what now? 150K? Eventually we will have to face reality and Americans will have to learn about I/P...this story frankly is, even if true, even if terrible a waste of peoples time considering what is going on over there.
We get upset over someone being arrested for blasphamy but the 60 year occupation, aparthied, that gets ignored by most Americans. Something is wrong here.
mondoweiss.net
Re:Not like cowardly Westerners (Score:5, Insightful)
I agree that this a violation of freedom, but this is a case of religion being subverted for political reasons, not a problem with the religion. Almost every religious group has had its fanatics at one time or another.
Religion is a political subversion.
The Quran, in isolation, is not a religion. Same goes for the Sunnah, or the Bible, or other "primary sources." Human language is not a programming language, where one word corresponds to one action. No text of sufficient complexity can be understood in a uniform, objective, everyone-sees-the-same-thing way. Same goes double if the text is ancient, translated, or literary.
Instead, there are many interpreters--scholars, imams, clerics--who stand in the way and impose their own views, knowingly or unknowingly, on the original texts. Their own views create a new version of the text in their minds and the minds of those who listen to or read them. Simply by citing a certain passage and omitting a less compelling passage, they are creating a new narrative with its own strengths and foibles. Each narrative is built upon previous narratives (it is difficult to read one of these holy books in isolation without somehow being exposed to other believers, teachers, footnotes/annotations, or the media). Despite the differences (minute or extreme) between narratives, each narrative shares a lot in common with one another.
As opposed to an individual's narrative, the religion can be found in the complex web of relationships between books, theories, and people. Just like no one computer comprises the Internet, the entire network of relationships makes up the religion (and the Internet). And that complex web--the religion--is also a web of political relationships. Those politics are replete with broken promises, exaggerated fears, and insipid bullying--human problems from human politics. It's impossible to exonerate one's own narrative from the sticky web of human politics. You can't stand on the sidelines, because you're in it, no matter how badly you distance yourself from the ugly politics of it all.
Those fanatics you mention can't be so easily dismissed when they live in your web. Humanist Christians and liberal Muslims, take note: you need to own up to and speak out against your most destructive members. Especially when those members rule countries, lead political parties, and fund extreme acts of violence.
Re:Not like cowardly Westerners (Score:3, Insightful)
How about this one:
Image= The downtrodden Palestinians being occupied by the genocidal Israelis. Reality: Hamas is a terrorist organization bent on the destruction of an internationally recognized state while hiding behind the suffereing of their people who's leadership lives free in Syria.
Hamas is a the child of a war declared by The Arab States to eliminate the State of Israel (The State being created by the UN). They lost the war but still will not recognize Israel's right to exist. Their main goal is still to eliminate Israel. Check the Hamas Covenant [yale.edu] articles 12 and 13. By article 13 they will not even negotiate a peace treaty.
I am not in complete agreement with everything Israel has done but what do you expect Israel to do when they are continually subjected to rocket attacks and suicide bombers? The Palestinians started it and the will not quit.
Btw, Fatah is at least trying to be reasonable.
Re:Religion (Score:3, Insightful)
Old Testament God was pretty interesting. He's a very human (albeit mentally deranged) character who likes to play games with the mortals and isn't afraid to personally come down and kick some arse. The basic message was "I'll do whatever the hell I want, and maybe that includes fucking you up". The sequel became a bit too preachy, and they clearly cast a new actor to play the part of God, but there are still parts in which the old "fuck you all and your donkeys" attitude of God shines through.
By the way. I'd give it 2000 years just to be on the safe side.
Re:Not like cowardly Westerners (Score:2, Insightful)
Man, I have to re-read this shat before I post it and check for grammatical errors....
oh well....I hear what you're saying, and I'm sure you're partly right. I may be a few degrees too idealistic. That happens when you know whats going on over there and you realize how little of that truth is being spoken about in America. But even if I go to far what I'm saying closer to the truth than the crap was first posted about this story.
Those comments were similar to what I see about Iraq. After we bomb their cities, destroy their goverment and society...then when theres anarchy and bombings...Americans read about it and say 'oh my they are so violent! It must be because of their religion!'
Same as with the reaction to Hamas in this story.
To ignore the political things and lay it all at the feat of their culture and religion is a delusion.