Internet Dismantling the State Church In Finland 547
An anonymous reader writes "A Finnish secular web site that facilitates electronic resignation from the Finnish state church gained wide attention in the media this week. A gay rights TV panel discussion was followed by thousands resigning from the church. On Wednesday, 2633 people resigned through the web site, which is more than all the resignations in July. The Internet is secularizing the Finnish with increasing speed; over 90% of resignations in Finland go through the site administered and marketed by hobbyists driving Finland towards a secular, non-religious state."
Down with the Finnish Taliban woo. (Score:5, Interesting)
Finland is a secular state, don't let the two state churches fool you. The Lutheran one is basically like the archetypical izzardesque Anglican Church or Unitarian Universalists (we drink more coffee though), and the Orthodox one is just kinda ethnic. Finns go to church for Christmas, weddings and funerals, and stay with the church mainly for those things (and godfathering or godmothering), not for some religious impulse.
I myself resigned from the church a couple years back using eroakirkosta.fi after I started getting the local parish paper... to no avail, they just switched the recipient to my room-mate, who also subsequently decided to resign as well. The process was easy and painless, but don't tell my family: I might have to give back all those Confirmation gifts.
Cool idea (Score:5, Interesting)
Someone should do the same for the Catholic Church. There are a great many "lapsed Catholics" who are nevertheless counted as full members in good standing when politicians decide what demographics are large enough to be worth pandering to.
You have to explicitly request excommunication [atheistfoundation.org.au] in order to be dropped from the church rolls, and that's really only the beginning of the process, as they may not let you go without a fight. It would be nice if there were a site that made it easier for those whose consciences no longer permit them to be counted among the Church's numbers to take this first step.
some statistics via google stats (Score:3, Interesting)
The latest statistics for those that have resigned via the eroakirkosta.fi service are available at http://mpolla.net/ek/ it's very clear to see a huge spike starting from 14.10.2010 just after the panel discussion mentioned. Myself being an atheist and a Secular Humanist I'm very pleased to see that when the state church made it's view of homosexuals clear, many people decided that they could no longer reconcile being a part of such a close-minded organization. My hope is that this is the "straw that broke the camels back" and will lead to the total separation of church and state in Finland like in Sweden (yes Finland still has a state church)
Base Vs. Stakeholders (Score:5, Interesting)
This is a classic base Vs. stakeholders issue - when the organization (church in this case) fails to represent a view compatible with its base, and so long as it doesn't hold some critical resource away from its base, it will lose that base.
The usual resolution of such disputes is not the organization changing though - it is either a major structural failure of the organization followed by minimal changes, or the organization deciding threaten its base into staying in more harsh terms. This happens particularly often in politics.
Why do organizations tend to act this way? Because they virtually always exist to serve the stakeholders first, and not to serve the base they were designed to represent, whatever their origin. This is based on the idea that one has to serve one's own interest before they can logically be able to serve others - and carries through to individual members decisions to either serve the organizations resource gathering, or suppress others altruistic actions, more often than deciding to actually act altruistically through the organization. In other words, organizations select for selfishness towards the organization, and against other factors like serving those not as much a part of the organization.
So, leave all you want - even if it threatens to destroy the church, as long as the stakeholders can be comfortable with the process, it's just those fickle folks straying from the true path. But the second a true insider nails something to the Church door, then suddenly its something meaningful.
See also most group disputes inside the Democratic/Republican parties - it takes core insiders to cause the party to blink. The base falling apart is just unfortunate noise. Reality ignored all over the place, when it doesn't serve the interests of the core shareholders.
Same thing with most businesses, unions, communes, mutual funds, and so on - they all organize, then tend to find themselves more unresponsive to their base over time.
Ryan Fenton
Fees (Score:2, Interesting)
A question for fellow Finns (please mod up!) (Score:3, Interesting)
First: Posting A/C since I don't want to beg for karma but would really appreciate it if many people see this since I've asked on plenty of Finnish forums but not gotten any good answer.
When I used the site to leave the church, two elderly women rang my doorbell a few days later telling me that "Jesus has something to say to you, young man" to which I replied "tell him to send me e-mail" and shut the door. Half an hour or so later I noticed that they were still standing outside my door and whilst I obviously don't get intimidated by old ladies, I found it quite rude that they did that. Now my question for my fellow Finns is whether any of you have had the same experience? I don't know precisely who they were but obviously presume that they were from the church and suspect that they update their records manually and make such visits every time someone leaves the church. I might add that this happened in the city of Espoo.
Past and future news (Score:2, Interesting)
And in that October_30th (531777) made a good point which I'll quote:
This marginalizes the influence of the more miltant lunatic (evangelical) fringe and enhances the stability of our society. I would go as far as atttributing the complete absence of a credible religious right in Finland to the existence state church.
Those who seek the destruction of the one, monolithic state church should think about what they're wishing for.
I think eventually after majority of the population has excluded themselves out of religious issues, we'll just get the increased number of islamic immigrants and right wing crazies fighting amongst themselves, collecting news headlines and escalating the issue.
Re: Ireland has had this for some time (Score:3, Interesting)
Here the Portuguese Atheist Association has posted the instructions on how to send the letter of apostasy. It's not hard.
a Hot Topic in Belgium too (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Somehow I dont think its a loss of religious fa (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Moral authority (Score:1, Interesting)
So wouldn't the correct procedure be to get MORE people to join the Church and lobby internally for change?
In what sense would that be more "correct" than for people to leave? And since the membership have no power over the church but arer required to financially support it (through taxation) that would seem to have exactly the opposite of the desired effect - it's like saying that if you hate a company's environmental policies then you should become a customer so that they get more profitable as a result of having policies you don't like (and presumably risk losing busienss if they ever adopt policies you do like). It's silly.
Now all that's left in there are the hardliners who blocked gay marriage in the first place.
Yes, and they'll have to financially support their policies themselves. Maybe even get jobs.
Re:Moral authority (Score:1, Interesting)
So all other things being equal it's better for a child to be raised in a heterosexual same-race rich family
Absolutely, unless you actually look at the studies [cbsnews.com] done. In that case, it doesn't matter a whit whether the family is inter-racial, straight, gay, or whatever.
Just because you have a bias doesn't mean that it's true.
A Christian talking about irony? Oh boy... (Score:3, Interesting)
Just one example:
A Christian cheats on their spouse and blames it on man's "fallen" nature and leaves crucifix-equipped Jesus to take the heat for it, making their share of his pain that much worse. And they keep doing it because of this "fallen" bullshit. That's mean.
A moral being just plain doesn't do immoral things because these things are immoral and spares crucifix-equipped Jesus (metaphorical or otherwise) that share of pain.
A moral human being would get Jesus the hell off that cross. I know I would, given the chance. *imagines sniping Romans* Christians are content to keep him there so he can keep bleeding and hurting for trivial garbage. Animals.
When it all comes out in the wash, it's going to be the people who didn't need Jesus who actually took his advice to heart. Every bible thumper who came to my door was nuts. Serving "Jayzus" by pestering me with Hell talk because of their own guilt over something of varying severity.
I'm not having it. There's no such thing as a free lunch. Satan is supposed to personify deception. The ultimate deception would be that of convincing idiots that they can do whatever they want and get away with it just by leaning on Jesus--only to spring the trap later on. That's a clever filter as I'm sure it would keep murderers who repent just before lethal injections, child molesters, RIAA attorneys and hypocrite televangelists like Swaggart out of Heaven, else, why would you want to be there?
It's going to be the unconquered, the ones who didn't use Jesus as a human shield, who truly save your ass--assuming you're worth saving.
Re:No, it means you don't understand irony. (Score:5, Interesting)
While it is true that homosexuality is wrong
Homosexuality may be condemned in the Bible, but is the Bible correct?
Re:Base Vs. Stakeholders (Score:2, Interesting)
..yet the pope pissed on Purgatory, stating that was not in line with the church's modern views.
[citation needed] Do you mean limbo? It was never part of the Church's teaching, though some people may have written about the idea in a speculative / hypothetical way.
Organized religion is about manipulation, not faith.
[citation needed] So you're saying priests, bishops, and the pope are moustache-twirling Machiavellian types who just want to manipulate people? That they don't care about the spiritual and emotional well-being of their fellow faithful? To what end are they running this manipulation? Is it a 2000 year old secret conspiracy to accomplish... what exactly?
Seriously, I never quite understood this aspect of people's dislike of organized religion.
Re: They Will Be Sorry (Score:5, Interesting)
Right. Because all countries in the world without state religions are moral cess pools.
Are you seriously saying the only thing making you act morally is a demonstrably corrupt organization with a history of brutality?
Re:A Christian talking about irony? Oh boy... (Score:2, Interesting)
http://www.theonion.com/articles/if-i-hadnt-found-jesus-id-feel-pretty-shitty-about,17883/ [theonion.com]
Re:No, it means you don't understand irony. (Score:3, Interesting)
I never said I was mad at Christians. A lot of people are, though, as you can easily see when it comes up around here.
I was raised going to church every Sunday, praying before every meal, etc. I believe the core teachings are great and I believe that there are some very genuinely good people involved in the religion (and every other religion). I also believe there are a lot of people who want to be good, but have imo misinterpreted much of the message and gotten too caught up in worrying about the wrong parts of the teachings.
The misinterpretation is why I have stopped going to church since leaving my parents' house many years ago. Far too many religious people seem far too concerned over whether I said fuck or wore a t-shirt with a skull on it rather than whether I peacefully worked out the situation with some asshole or helped someone in need or was just generally courteous and held a door open for someone whose hands were full. To many of these people, such as the person I replied to, going out and being a witness to God (as the Bible puts it) to people means occasionally leaving your safe, protected group of to cram Jesus down someone's throat whether they want to hear it or not by preaching on the street corner or including how it's a great day to be a Christian and every little thing done that day was blessed by God. To me, being a witness to God means going out into the world and just generally being a good person. Bring up your religion when it's relevant, keep it to yourself when it's not. No one in any modern country is not a Christian because they've never heard of the religion, they're not a Christian because they have seen a reason to be one.
Re:No, it means you don't understand irony. (Score:3, Interesting)