Craigslist Removes Its Controversial Adult Section 522
Cyrus writes "The online classified website Craigslist has removed its controversial Adult Services portion of its website. Technology blog TechCrunch was the first to report the section had been blacked out with the word 'Censored.'"
Re:oh darn (Score:4, Interesting)
And what's wrong with prostitution anyway? In the end all girls cost money, many times much more than if you just get to the point right away. I'm in Thailand currently and it's all very casual - you go to a bar or gogo bar (not clubs), girls come to talk with you and you order them a few drinks and maybe play a round of billiard and just have good time. If you want to, you can take them to the nearest hotel or take them to your hotel with you for a night. Girls don't mind and sometimes they might even end up dating with you (happens easily as western guys are considered a huge score for a girl here).
In the end its nothing else than again some religious or "I define what people should be allowed to do!" persons trying to limit the fun people can have. If the girl herself wants to do it, there's no "victims". Hell, there are girls who love having a lot of sex and it's even better for them because they get paid for what they love. Other people really have to start living their own lives and stop thinking "I don't do this, so no one else can do it either!".
Re:Consenting Adults (Score:2, Interesting)
Who are you to decide how people want to spend their lives?
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/3114238/Lap-dancers-not-just-pretty-faces.html [thesun.co.uk]
Re:Consenting Adults (Score:3, Interesting)
The person that had to pay for drinks, a dinner, and a movie and didn't even get more than a peck on the cheak and an offer to do it again in a couple nights, in hope that you might get a proper kiss. A few weeks, a dozen hours or more, and a few hundred dollars, and they "might" get lucky...
Oh, so the purpose of a date is to get sex, and you're a "victim" if the other person doesn't put out?
You need to review your understanding of human relationships. (Yes, I'm sure you'll point out you're talking about "people/women like that", and not yourself. Mhm.)
Re:And as we all know... (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Only seems to effect the USA (Score:2, Interesting)
So all U.S. users need is a proxy outside the U.S.
Re:oh darn (Score:5, Interesting)
But it's without foundation to bring up the "lots of women want to do it" argument. And "want to do it", whatever the tedious capitalist he-may-be-interned-in-a-factory-but-at-least-he's-not-dying-in-the-fields armchair philosophers will tell you, must not be confused with "is desperate for money and willing to do it because there is no viable alternative".
So instead of a situation of a desperate woman being a prostitute to pay the bills, you instead would rather that desperate woman be a prostitute to pay the bills AND be a criminal. :/
That's rather nice of you
Look, we both know the problem is desperation, and that is what needs to be solved.
Clearly neither of us have that solution, nor do the women doing this.
Why make them criminals just because they are already in a fucked up situation?
Because outlawing something does not stop it, especially when you are that desperate already.
If it was simply taxed and regulated like any other legal job, we wouldn't have any of the Other problems we get today with prostitution, and will be making the exact same dent in the desperation problem as now (read None)
Then a lot of those desperate women will not be criminals as well, and might have a better chance of improving their situation without a police record to follow them forever.
Right now it's very hard to help improve any of those peoples lives, as with a criminal record they can't easily do quite a lot of things we take for granted, such as getting a job.
Remove that one little barrier and it becomes that much easier to provide some real help.
Re:oh darn (Score:4, Interesting)
Fastfood work can be just as mentally straining & bad for your body, especially if you're eating where you work because it's cheaper due to your employee discount than fixing food for yourself. If you have anyone else to support or you have flaky hours, you might need another job. Combine the physical nature of the job, the unhealthy environment & food then the mental stress of incompetent or power tripping management, aggressive and selfish customers, anxiety over working so hard yet not having enough money to pay for basic needs & the stigma attached to being a fast-food worker, I could see how it's not a lot better than being a prostitute.
Ultimately it does take a certain mindset to be a prostitute & not all prostitution is equal. Turning tricks under a bridge for $20 so you can go feed your addiction is not the same as someone earning $200 or $300 per visit & does not have an addiction. Also on the outside people will have no clue you're a prostitute, unless you're outed somehow. People will know you work in fast-food and that some how makes you a loser so will be nasty to you while you man the register or they'll heckle you while you're standing at the bus stop after your shift.
In conclusion neither job is healthy.
Out of sight, out of mind (Score:3, Interesting)
CL safer than other methods? (Score:2, Interesting)
I know I read an article/blog by a CL prostitute who basically had a "how-to" on posting ads and meeting clients, but I can't seem to find it now. It was years ago. But basically she had a close call with an iffy client and vowed to play it safer from that point on. She made a guide that made it dead easy to spot clients who were obviously dangerous and how to find out more about them by only exchanging typed words.
Of course there was the potential that a client would work really *really* hard acting like a good guy and then doing something truly evil, but anyone could be a victim to someone like that - whether you're posting an ad online, meeting someone in a bar, or even dating a friend of a friend.
Re:oh darn (Score:3, Interesting)
If there are no other options, all the ugly girls and lowly educated men would die of starvation.
(1) Prostitutes aren't necessarily "pretty" - don't get your ideas on the sex industry from Western porn sites;
(2) Men have far more employment opportunities. Most societies still overtly discriminate against women, sometimes because they're physically weaker and sometimes just because.
. Yes they are exploited, but how did they get there?
Are they OK now? Just because some uneducated kid is fooled into thinking that prostitution is a lucrative way out of poverty it doesn't mean you get to judge them any differently when they're physically and emotionally broken a year later.
Re:oh darn (Score:3, Interesting)
Most people object to prostitution on two grounds: human trafficking, which should be wrong anyways, mistreatment by their pimps, or the dangers presented by clients. Most people who are against prostitution are not against the prostitutes themselves.
Nope. Sure, they like to argue that they are, but if you actually pay attention to what they're saying they think all prostitution should be destroyed to "stop trafficking and are pushing for laws that make their lives more dangerous.
For example, here in the UK the anti-trafficking groups pushed for a law criminalising sex with women who were "controlled for gain". Sounds good, right? Except it means no more agencies to screen out harassing calls, and no more working with a maid or other person who can call the police if the client gets violent because many clients will wonder if they could be a pimp and they might go to jail. (It was a strict-liability offence - didn't matter if there was no way you could know the women you were paying for sex with was "controlled for gain".) These groups went to a lot of effort to keep actual sex workers from pointing this out to the Government.
Or think about what exactly the Swedish law means. It means that most guys who have respect for the law won't visit prostitutes. It also means that anyone that does will be on the lookout for a police sting, so forget record-keeping or requiring real phone numbers or having someone else in the flat as a witness. It's the exact opposite of making prostitution a safe profession.
(Oh, and Sweden's only legalised prostition if you're in the country legally and have the right to work. Anyone who isn't gets a prison sentence and forcible repatriation, which in some cases means their country of origin will then confiscate their passport. Of course, this doesn't apply if they were illegally trafficked, and the police are sure to tell the women that they know they must be victims of sex trafficking and that if they just give a statement saying so they can leave prison. Net result? Traffickers are reluctant to traffic women into Sweden... unless they know they'll be kept as slaves and can never reach the sex industry.)
Guess what? (Score:3, Interesting)
When things are illegal, people are pushed in to them that don't want to be. The activity has to exist at the sidelines and those involved can't get help from the authorities if they need it. The problems, the abuses, happen because it is illegal and thus they have to turn to people like pimps for promotion and protection.
However when it is legal? Not such a problem. Have a look in to the brothels in Nevada some time (you can look at documentaries rather than going there). You find that when it is legal, the problems go away. The girls set their own terms, nobody can force them. Rather than criminals the brothels employ private security like any company, and the police are just a phone call away if anything serious happens. If they wish to quit, like any other job they simply leave. There is no force or threat to keep them there, it is a business as any other.
Please remember that when talking about legalized prostitution people aren't talking in hypothetical here, it is legal in many places. The really difference is known, documented.
Really, if you want to get up on legal jobs that people get in to when they have no other choice look at things like fast food, menial construction work, that kind of thing. Those are what people end up having to do when they have no particular talents or skills that are in demand. That is also why they pay so little, literally anyone can do them.
When a profession is legal, it can be kept safe (because the government regulates it) and it is a choice, since you are free to stop work at any time for any reason. When something is illegal, it is unsafe.
With crime, when you've fallen in to that life, it can be hard to escape. You can, literally, risk your life getting out as people may kill you to keep you from leaving. With a regular job, you've committed to nothing. You can just not show up to work some day and the only consequence is they won't pay you anymore. You are free to leave as it suits you.
Re:oh darn (Score:1, Interesting)
We've posted to casual encounters a dozen times over the past couple of years. The vast majority of replies are obvious fakes, and this is only going to make it worse. The remaining weren't good matches for one reason or another (we don't find them attractive, or they live way far away). Swinger sites are MUCH more reliable.
Related side story: we turned down one couple that responded on Craigslist after swapping g-rated pictures with them (my wife didn't find him particularly attractive). That night we went to a swingers party for New Years, and you don't get three guesses to figure out who showed up. Turns out they were a strange couple... she stayed parked on the couch all night long while her husband had some fun. She may have been broke (on her period). I don't recall for sure. But I do recall her sucking most of the energy out of that corner of the hotel room. It didn't seem like she wanted to be there.
Re:oh darn (Score:2, Interesting)
Yeah, I was basically nodding my head in agreement (I also agree with your post about occasional student prostitute work vs regular street workers). I am genuinely puzzled by the quantity of people who view sex as a sneaky goal rather than an incidental enjoyment of a relationship, and then use this pathological viewpoint to argue, "At least paying for a prostitute is honest!"
I can't get out of my head the image of a serial killer justifying himself with, "At least I only poisoned the suicidal!"
Comment removed (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:oh darn (Score:2, Interesting)
Craigslist had _nothing_ to do with legitimzing it or bringing it above board. Almost all of the prostitutes there were "illegal", because they work in states where it is outlawed. Craigslist made it easy for underfunded amateurs, without the experience or any elementary training or backup from a driver or a call-in number, to participate.
I've personally known "adult workers", from the phone sex divorced mom with beutiful feet who did foot pictures and paid the car bills and food bills for her child during and after the divorce because her ex-husband had all the assets and took them for his kids with his new wife, who herself worked becauseshe had the degree my friend sacrificed to pay for her husband's graduate school, to the drug-addled and pimp-drug-supplied acquaintances of my high school days. My adult friend made a few harmless bucks, but she was careful and refused to do in person work. The youngsters were pretty universally abused by clients and pimps alike.
So it varies, certainly, but I suggest you talk to the actual prostitutes. There's a large and incredibly seamy underside to the profession, rife not only with the illegality of prostitution itself but with police corruption, drug abuse, and physical risk to prostitute and their customers alike. Craigslist does not have the _staff_ and resources to police their subscriberes and assure anything like legitimacy: their costs are so low because of the self-advertising and lack of such staff, and corresponding lack of anything like a background check. The result was a morass of poor quality adult workers and real risk to both clients and advertisers, which played out in several murders.
Now, all that said, I'm cureious why Craigslist marked it "censored". Did some court order step on their services?
Re:oh darn (Score:1, Interesting)
In the immortal words of George Carlin... "Selling is legal... Sex is legal... Why isn't selling sex legal?"
Re:oh darn (Score:3, Interesting)
Intentionally spreading a fatal disease gets you jail time [current.com] in Canada.
Re:oh darn (Score:3, Interesting)
Do prostitutes in Amsterdam or Vegas have pimps? No. Can the business people who run brothels take all the prostitute's money and abuse them? No, the prostitutes are free to go to work for competitors who will treat them better. Are there crime problems or drug problems disproportionate with other low-end but legal lines of work? Nope. Just legalizing prostitution does a lot to improve the problem of prostitutes being trapped in desperate circumstances.
Blurring the line (Score:3, Interesting)
What this is doing is blurring the line between casual sex and prostitution. It will make it more difficult legally and personally. Not good.
What is the effect on the workers? (Score:3, Interesting)
It seems unlikely that closing off this route of advertising will do much to discourage prostitution. On the other hand, it will make it harder for women to offer sexual services as independent operators, and will tend to force more of them into exploitive arrangements in which much of their income is taken by "management." So it is a lose for the women, but a big win for the pimps.
Re:oh darn (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:oh darn (Score:2, Interesting)