Justice Department Seeks Ebonics Experts 487
In addition to helping decipher their Lil Wayne albums, the Justice Department is seeking Ebonics experts to help monitor, translate and transcribe wire tapped conversations. The DEA wants to fill nine full time positions. From the article: "A maximum of nine Ebonics experts will work with the Drug Enforcement Administration’s Atlanta field division, where the linguists, after obtaining a 'DEA Sensitive' security clearance, will help investigators decipher the results of 'telephonic monitoring of court ordered nonconsensual intercepts, consensual listening devices, and other media.'”
That's not the professional term (Score:3, Interesting)
Linguists say "African-American Vernacular English".
What does it say about our society if a group we need to integrate is so isolated it's developing an incompatible dialect?
Re:That's not the professional term (Score:5, Insightful)
It says said group does not want to be assimilated and would instead prefer retaining certain unique cultural and linguistic elements.
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> It says said group does not want to be assimilated and would instead prefer retaining certain unique cultural and linguistic elements.
Meanwhile, the Vietnamese are buying up their neighborhood.
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Yeah, and the Amish need to GTFO and start their own country somewhere where it's still 1600. And the Welsh and Scots need to GTFO of the UK, and the Quebecois need to GTFO of Canada. (Wait, they want that already, and Canada won't let them.) And white folks need to GTFO out of America since they won't assimilate the native cultures. Basically, everybody needs to GTFO out of everywhere.. And maybe live in orbiting space bubbles or some shit.
I have a song for you! Everybody, sing along!
o/~ YO
Re:That's not the professional term (Score:5, Informative)
Quebecois need to GTFO of Canada. (Wait, they want that already, and Canada won't let them.)
Actually, the Supreme Court of Canada ruled [wikipedia.org] that, while Quebec cannot secede unilaterally, it is not inseparable, and should the majority in it vote for independence in a referendum, the federal government cannot deny them the right to secede outright, and shall negotiate the precise terms of separation with the Quebec government.
So all they need now is a successful referendum - and in the two they had so far, the majority was not in favor of separation, albeit by a margin of less than 1% in the most recent one.
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The Québécois already voted 60% in favour of separation in 1995
60% of francophones did. But anglophone residents of Quebec are also entitled to voice their opinion on independence of the province which has been their home for many years now. Why do you disregard their votes?
Re:That's not the professional term (Score:4, Informative)
There's a big difference with Black "Culture" in America and your examples is that this group is entirely artificial, put itself apart from "whitey" simply to defy integration. All the groups you mentioned have distinctive cultures that arose from fully established functioning societies. This culture could simply not survive if it had to establish it's own laws and societal constructs instead of suckling at the teat of wellfare and distributors of crime and violence. Example: compare blacks born in America versus blacks born in Africa versus blacks born in the Caribbean.
There is a whole generation of black adults that are collectively spitting in the faces of those who have sufferred and endured so much to ensure their freedom. A whole generation of black adults that calls anyone successful with their genotype as "Uncle Tom". A whole generation of black adults that glamorizes raping bitches, drinking fourties, and shooting their rivals above science and philosophy and the greater good.
Willfully ignoring this makes YOU the idiot.
Orbiting Space Bubble FTW! (Score:3)
As long as there are supply runs...
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What is it with this attitude towards people of differing languages?
Did you not see the XKCD comic where the guy is bitching about how if people don't want to learn English, they should leave the country, and then the girl behind him starts speaking Cherokee?
It's incredibly hypocritical to claim that YOU have any more heritage or culture than African Americans, after all, some of them are 3rd of 4th Generation, some Great Grandparents brought over by slave trades and such. Does that make them less of a citi
Re:That's not the professional term (Score:4, Insightful)
It's incredibly hypocritical to claim that YOU have any more heritage or culture than African Americans
This has nothing to do with heritage or culture. Everyone should feel free to keep their cultural identity. In my opinion that's one of the things that makes America great. But when you move to another country to live you should make some attempt to learn to speak the language.
Re:That's not the professional term (Score:4, Insightful)
So I take it you speak Cherokee?
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The thing you're missing about the jive-speakers is that they don't have a historical claim on their "language" or "culture". These things were created in the last few decades only, not some type of historical holdover. It's not like the Scots wanting to preserve Scots Gaelic and wearing kilts, things that go back many centuries or more.
Basically, it's a certain economic class of people trying to differentiate themselves. It would be like a bunch of southern rednecks making up their own version of Englis
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Rap's been around for decades, too!
Not that I couldn't predict it, but the ignorance on display in this thread is mind-blowing. Especially from a group of people which likes to think it has exceptional intelligence and command of facts.
I HAS a Dream (Score:5, Interesting)
I saw this poster [blogger.com] in 1999 on a fellow's cubical wall at a place where the company I worked for was putting in a software system, in Rhode Island. The blog where the picture is hosted from provides the text [blogspot.com] below the picture. It was commissioned by The National Head Start Association [nhsa.org]. For those that it matters to, the person who put up the poster was black. It was no surprise when I saw it for the first time, as I found previously that he placed a lot of emphasis on being able to communicate effectively with those around him.
Your politically correct stance does not help people. In order to overcome prejudices it is best to focus on our similarities with others rather than on our differences. Once that is done, the differences don't matter as much. We cannot focus on anything if we cannot communicate. It doesn't help communication when one community works so hard on creating a wholly new dialect, if not language, just so that they can be more different.
In case the site is not available, or for those that don't care to click, here is the text:
Re:I HAS a Dream (Score:4, Insightful)
Exactly. If you're a minority living among a majority, and you create a new language to separate yourself, you're only going to succeed in separating yourself from them even more. Then, you won't get any jobs and will be dirt-poor.
Balkanism is not a path to success.
Re:That's not the professional term (Score:5, Funny)
Re:That's not the professional term (Score:4, Funny)
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The sadder thing is I thought it was rot13, and mentally translated it, and still understood it.
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Same here. I had more difficulties with his poor grammars than the leet.
Re:That's not the professional term (Score:4, Insightful)
10 years ago, I'd have agreed with you. However, leetspeak has invented new words - perversions of standard english words in the same vein as ebonics - acronyms, and entire phrases to its vocabulary list. N00b, pwnd (i always pronounce this with a hard P, don't you?), kekeke, pr0n, h4x0r, sUx0r...
Re:That's not the professional term (Score:4, Insightful)
True enough, but do you know anyone who insists on speaking leet for job interviews, court, and with their grandmother even after it has clearly caused a difficulty in communication?
Leet is merely a sort of slang.
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No! It's a good thing! Now all we need is a comfy government job translating teh interwebs!
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No! It's a good thing! Now all we need is a comfy government job translating teh interwebs!
*ahem* "intarwebs"... you get a D.
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intartubes, plz
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intartubes, plz
Both are accepted varieties, however it is plainly clear to all scholars of the topic that "intar-" is the proper first component of the word. "webz" and "tubez" are highly variable.
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I hope not because otherwise all of /. is officially a lost cause.
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"it's developing an incompatible dialect" -- this is not a recent development, I interpret "it's developing" as "now", while actually the A-A vernacular has been developing for centuries with most of its characteristic features probably established long time ago.
AAVE is a fairly recent development (Score:5, Informative)
Actually, it appears that AAVE is a product of the Great Northern Migration of African-Americans in the early 20th century. Prior to that time, there was little to no distinction between the dialects of southern whites and southern blacks.
The pieces of evidence for this claim include:
Something which linguists call "age grading". If you take speakers of AAVE today and compare younger speakers with older speakers, the younger speakers actually have a higher percentage occurrence of the distinctive features of AAVE. This suggests that AAVE is becoming increasingly distinct from standard American English over time.
There are other pieces of evidence as well, but those are some of the important ones.
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Informative response, thanks.
"This suggests that AAVE is becoming increasingly distinct from standard American English over time."
I wonder if this "age grading" doesn't just suggest that young people will eventually learn standard English better when they get to a certain age instead of the opposite conclusion, it's always hard to compare apples with oranges.
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"opposite conclusion" is not the right choice of words, I meant: instead of assuming that older people speech is a good indication of how they were speaking when they were young.
Also should have said "learn standard English better by the time they get to a certain age" -- English is not my first language, it plays tricks on me.
Re:AAVE is a fairly recent development (Score:4, Interesting)
To answer your question about age grading, you have to look at a population at more than one point in time. In cases where this has been done (e.g. speakers of central American Spanish), what we find is that young adults have the highest percentage of the incoming feature (higher than both children and older adults). As those same young adults get older, their use of the incoming feature does decline some, but not down to the levels of the previous generation. The 40-year-olds today have a higher percentage of the incoming variant than the 40-year-olds twenty years ago.
Variants in speech can serve as social markers which you use to identify yourself as a member of a group. As a guess, I imagine that the slight decline in use of the incoming variant as you get older has less to do with "learning standard English better", and more to do with it not being quite as important to sound cool as you get older. As a 40-year-old, you probably still wear clothes which identify you as a member of a certain group, but you probably don't dress in quite as trendy a way as you did when you were 20.
Re:That's not the professional term (Score:5, Insightful)
So-called "Standard English" and AAVE are mutually comprehensible languages, and always have been. Even in Airplane!, where they're deliberately exaggerating the differences for comic effect, you can understand the meaning of "My momma no raise no dummies, I dug her rap!" perfectly well.
Another way of thinking about it: which is easier for your average Standard English speaker to understand: AAVE or a cell phone contract?
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Well, look at it this way:
Is it possible for most English speakers to follow most of it, figuring out words they don't know from context cues, etc.? Sure, I think it is.
Is it also possible to lose possibly important nuances in the process? I think that's the case, too. For example, a hooptie is a car but there's also a fair amount of connotation to that choice of word.
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Another way of thinking about it: which is easier for your average Standard English speaker to understand: AAVE or a cell phone contract?
Given that most people I know have never understood the contract much beyond "how much must I pay, how long am I stuck with you and what would I have to pay to get out early?" I don't think you made a good point.
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I think that's exactly the point he was trying to make - the characterization of AAVE & "Standard English" as "incompatible" dialects is probably a little overblown, when people are less likely to understand a contract written in "standard english" than they are to somebody speaking a vernacular form.
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What does it say about our society if a group we need to integrate is so isolated it's developing an incompatible dialect?
Not "is developing", "has developed".
And it says nothing at all... separated groups will develop separate dialects. The issue of "dialect" even to the point of unintelligibility has been a pervasive issue throughout Europe in the modern age. America (all of it) is so new, that separate unintelligible dialects are rare due to everyone having such a recent base language to develop from.
Re:That's not the professional term (Score:4, Insightful)
AFAIK, this kind of thing happens all over the place. Pidgin in Hawaii, Creole in Louisiana...most localities have slang, dialects and accents that can be terribly confusing for outsiders. I'd bet even with the "African-American Vernacular English" you've got slang variations between regions.
Part of the problem here is that speaking proper english is often seen as "selling out", and any attempts to crawl out of poverty or to get educated are harshly treated by peers. With groups that consider their suffering a badge of pride, and dissuade others from escaping the cycles of poverty and violence often associated with those groups, it's really difficult to make any headway. It may not be politically correct to mention, but a lot of the damage done in impoverished communities is self inflicted.
Re:That's not the professional term (Score:4, Insightful)
"Proper english" is a misnomer. The proper way to say it is, "Speaking English in the dialect of power is often seen as 'selling out'."
There is nothing more "proper" or "correct" about Standard American English as opposed to AAVE. Both have their own (ofttimes overlapping) rules of grammar and vocabulary.
Re:That's not the professional term (Score:4, Insightful)
I understand the semantic argument you're making, using the term "dialect of power" instead of "proper" in order to symmetrically oppose any positive connotations of "proper", but this kind of argument is the kind of intellectualism that actually keeps people from escaping the poverty and violence of "non-power" subcultures.
I would submit that Standard American English has clearly codified rules, and AAVE has merely observations of the language in action, at best. Since AAVE is something that is taught without little in the way of literacy (that is to say, it is a predominantly oral tradition), it is difficult to equate it to something like Standard American English.
But there is something much more useful about Standard American English - it is the key to education, employment, and as you so cleverly put it, "power". Now perhaps the escape of poverty is not "proper" or "correct", and I accept your critique of my use of the term "proper" - but surely you must agree that learning Standard American English is beneficial on a myriad number of levels, and those subcultures that denigrate learning it are inflicting harm upon themselves.
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"Codified rules"? You mean the arbitrary laws that prescriptivists continue to attempt to impose on speakers despite all indications that these rules have no logical or meaningful basis?
Like double negatives, split infinitives, or dangling prepositions?
These "codified rules" are not actually a part of Standard American English. They are instead artificially imposed rules for a specific subset of language use.
But there is something much more useful about Standard American English - it is the key to education, employment, and as you so cleverly put it, "power". ... but surely you must agree that learning Standard American English is beneficial on a myriad number of levels, and those subcultures that denigrate learning it are inflicting harm upon themselves.
I wish I could take credit for it, but the linguistic term is "language of power" or "dialect of po
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Life isn't fair. Get over it. Having dozens of separate dialects and languages in one nation is impractical and unworkable.
So, the Netherlands is unworkable? The UK is unworkable?
Funny, I didn't get the memo.
Re:That's not the professional term (Score:5, Interesting)
or that maybe one ought to not make such a big fucking deal of the fact that a bunch of underprivileged people in this country speak a dialect different than yours.
If they don't speak the same language, they can't get a decent job. Then, they stay poor, and liberal whiners claim that these people are "underprivileged".
Sorry, but you can't have it both ways. If you want to speak a different language from the de facto language of economy in your nation, then you can't complain when you don't get to take part in the economy and raise yourself out of poverty. The tools are all there: remember, public education is free in this country (in SAE of course).
The reason it's a "big deal" is because the AAVE-speakers (and their liberal apologists) are always complaining about being "marginalized", "underprivileged", etc. Well, they're doing it to themselves. And yes, AAVE speakers do it willfully. I've been around many black people who could switch automatically between "white English" and jive depending on who they were talking to. Again, public education is free in this country, and it's done in SAE.
I grew up in the South, where people speak their own dialect. Speaking with a Southern accent is NOT a route to success in anywhere outside the South (or in many places inside it), as most Southerners will tell you. As someone more interested in being successful rather than "preserving" some dialect, I learned to speak proper SAE growing up, and never bothered with any regional accents. The way people spoke on national TV was the way I learned to speak, and made sure I spoke. I never complained about this.
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Call it the dialect of majority if you want propriety.
Afrikaans was not the "language of the majority" in South Africa, yet it remained the "language of power".
I spoke correctly, and used the pedantically correct term.
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Saying "2+2=5" is proper mathematical syntax, however it is factually incorrect.
Saying that blacks don't speak properly is a factually incorrect statement.
Your insane ranting does nothing to change this.
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I see, I didn't catch that you didn't think it was English.
Well, it's difficult to classify exactly what it is. It is a form of English, in the same way that English and German are both Germanic languages. Similarly, a Russian Blue is still a cat, but it's definitely not a Calico.
So you'd have it be treated as a separate language altogether? We'd have DMV forms written in English, Spanish, Vietnamese, Korean, Ebonics?
"Languages are dialects with an army and a navy". It's difficult to draw the line between what is and is not a language. However, if a language/dialect is sufficiently different so as to make it difficult to properly fill out a DMV form, then yes, we should provide them in that dialect
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AFAIK, this kind of thing happens all over the place.
Blacks in the UK talk no differently than whites.
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It's not a black/white thing - it's a subculture thing. In the UK, don't you guys have regions where they speak in thick accents....Cockney? I'm not sure exactly what street slang and subcultures exist in the UK, but I would assume they do, even if they aren't aligned the same way as in the US.
Accents vary from city to city and town to town, sometimes 30 miles seeing a huge change in dialect, particularly near coastal cities where there were outside influences historically. For example (and this is my theory) Newcastle's accent is heavily influenced by Scandinavia since that part of what is now England was once ruled by the Danes.
The point I'm making is that accents in the UK vary by region, not by ethnic group. A black person living in Newcastle will have the same 'geordie' accent as whites in
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But it's not surprising to me that dialects develop. I think, after the black-white school-integration era, people realized that there wa
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You're spot on about the craziness of the lack of dialectal differences in the US/Canada area. However, China only has "dialects" because of the aphorism "a dialect is a language with an army and a navy."
China has two main "dialects": Mandarin and Cantonese. These two "dialects" are mutually unintelligible, and significantly different from each other when compared to the Scandinavian "langauges".
"Jeg er snowgirl" (Norwegian) vs. "Jag är snowgirl" (Swedish) vs. "Jeg er snowgirl". (Danish)
The reason wh
African Americans - not people of African Decent (Score:2, Insightful)
It's more of a sub set of our black population that doesn't want to learn or get educated; which also happens to be the part of the
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It's more of a sub set of our black population that doesn't want to learn or get educated; which also happens to be the part of the population with the highest crime rate.
"Subset" is one word.
Now, the interesting thing here, is that people who are disadvantaged in life, regardless of will or desire, tend to have the highest crime rates. They're also the most likely to be least educated.
Funny how people attribute these disadvantaged as being "lazy" or lacking desire, when in reality, they're simply given a shitty hand to play.
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In the neighborhood I used to live in, there was an older black guy down the road. He was a truck driver lacking even most of a high school education. He spoke standard English better than most of the other people on the block. His pre-teen children (just the boys, not the girl) spoke "AAVE", and you could hear him screaming at them from time to time to act educated, he hated the fact that he worked hard to get where he was (coming from a very poor southern background) and his children sounded like they
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Ever notice how "professional terms" just get really long and add hyphens everywhere? I just call it the "black accent" and leave it at that. And since I know someone's thinking it, no that's not being racist. Racism implies that I implied something derogatory towards them. I haven't. Don't mind the people; the accent is just difficult to understand, just like any other strong accent.
Ok, accepting your definition of "racism", it's not racist. It's still factually wrong though.
AAVE has different mood, tenses, and aspects on its verbs, some of which are not expressible in Standard American English.
It is a "dialect", not an "accent". An accent is a different way of pronouncing words. For instance, the British speak a different dialect of English from Americans, but if a British person were to say a sentence with American word choice, they would still pronounce it in a British Accent.
Lik
Not enough mod points... (Score:5, Insightful)
Airplane! (Score:5, Funny)
Oh, stewardess, I speak jive: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhJDvI3gUO8
awesome! (Score:5, Funny)
Wow... (Score:2)
Ebonics is not like "jive" from the 70s. Anyone who really listens can understand it - its just a butchering of southern USA english.
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No it isn't "southern" - i'm not sure what it is but i know southern and it isn't this.
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"its just a butchering of southern USA english"
If that were true, the Justice Department would need translators to watch Paula Deen. [pauladeen.com]
You cannot make this stuff up. Not even Colbert can make this stuff up.
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Anyone who really listens can understand it - its just a butchering of southern USA english.
Au contraire, I watched a movie called American Pimp, much of which was in Ebonics, and I could barely understand a word of it.
Just because you can understand it doesn't mean everyone else can.
Were are living in the Onion (Score:2)
Similarly, this [theonion.com] just in. Looks like the administration is taking a page out of the Onion's book.
Couldn't help it... (Score:5, Insightful)
ENGLISH, motherfucker. DO YOU SPEAK IT?
Re:Couldn't help it... (Score:5, Funny)
What?
Re:Couldn't help it... (Score:4, Funny)
I'm curious... (Score:3, Interesting)
First, how does the Justice Department, as part of their interviewing process, figure out if someone legitimately has this skill or is faking it? This can't be that far from being the linguistic equivalent of a non-technical company trying to hire a programmer or IT person with a particular kind of expertise. In the tech world those situations are dailywtf's waiting to happen -- it can't be much better in this one.
Second, if you had this expertise, how would you keep it current? Spend an hour a day riding public transportation in Oakland?
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First, how does the Justice Department, as part of their interviewing process, figure out if someone legitimately has this skill or is faking it?
Have them translate something. It's not like this skill does not exist already. You have an expert write up a dialogue (or get one from a wire tap) and then have applicants decipher it. If they're right, they're in.
Second, if you had this expertise, how would you keep it current? Spend an hour a day riding public transportation in Oakland?
Probably a little more than that, but essentially, yeah. You need to speak to the people in question on a regular basis. Social workers might be good candidates.
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Second, if you had this expertise, how would you keep it current? Spend an hour a day riding public transportation in Oakland?
Probably a little more than that, but essentially, yeah. You need to speak to the people in question on a regular basis. Social workers might be good candidates.
Black: Check.
Work Downtown Oakland: Check.
Ride Public Transport: Check.
For One Hour: (roundtrip) Check.
Ability to Translate: Sporadic at best. Happily references UrbanDictionary as needed.
With all do respect to some posters (and not the ones I'm replying to here) - skin pigmentation does not denote linguistic ability or accents.
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And it helps if I proofread these before I hit submit. s/do/due
[sigh]
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A group of the moderately skilled can, through consensus and planning, quite efficiently evaluate an individual of higher skill. For example, psychometricians generally speaking aren't geniuses but their IQ tests are pretty good at detecting them.
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Shoe size?!
Just kidding... if they are looking for linguists they are probably going to base their skill assessment on actual research published by the candidate.
Is there an N-word exemption by contract? (Score:3, Interesting)
Because, ya know, as a white dude I'd hate to lose my job translating negrospeak because I used the N-word.
Is it really that hard to understand negrospeak? Or are all the old guys who the DoJ just starting fossilize? Will this lead to black street gangs using Valley Girl Talk to throw the police off their trail?
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As a white guy, you're probably more likely to get in trouble for referring to it as "negrospeak" in casual conversation. I'm pretty sure that's not a technical term... outside of Amos and Andy.
I say. (Score:2)
Herein follow a few terms to help you get started (Score:5, Informative)
on your merry way towards the ve-nak-u-lar
"Damn- that shit is DOPE".
That is a wonderful concept/object/action.
"Can't FADE that".
I am unable to comprehend or assimilate that concept at this time.
"Shante ain't havin' it".
This is not something that Shante will allow to occur.
"Homey- Boo was dropping PHAT beats".
Our friend Boo was playing some wonderful music.
"YO!- Let me GAFFLE that BLUNT"!
Might I be able to indulge in your marijuana cigarette?
"JIMMY was on and I was HITTIN' it"!
I had in my possession a condom, which was used in my engagement of sexual activity.
http://www.ebonics-translator.com/ebonics_101.php [ebonics-translator.com]
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Gentlemen, I inquire; Who hath released the hounds?
Here is more information.... (Score:2)
http://humor.beecy.net/misc/ebonics/ [beecy.net]
how many credit hours would that be? and I am wondering what the topic would be in Advanced Ebonics classes?
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It might not be street... (Score:2)
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LOL...izzle.
Recognize the autonomy of African-Americans (Score:3, Funny)
This is an excellent development as it further legitimizes the idea that:
(a) African-Americans are a separate group that should not be assimilated;
(b) African-Americans have their own culture, values and heritage that is distinct from the majority;
(c) African-Americans are best treated as a self-governing cultural community within the political entity "USA".
In other words, it's a step forward for true African-American autonomy, and an implicit recognition of Pan-Nationalism [pan-nationalism.org].
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Respectfully, I think you're choosing to read a lot more into this story than is really there.
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a) They are a separate group, but being so does not mean that they "should not be assimilated".
b) They do have their own culture, values and heritage that is distinct from the majority... this is fact. Ignoring it, or refusing it does not make it less of a fact.
c) What what?
Ah crap, I'm arguing with a nut job conspiracist... :(
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There's a Mr. Eminem here and he'd like to disagree with you that African-Americans are separate, have their own culture, or should be treated different.
Translation: (Score:5, Insightful)
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You need mod points. This is the clearest explanation I've read.
Unofficial History of Ebonics (Score:3, Informative)
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LJ doesnt talk ebonics. He's jamaican, he speaks what is called "Jamaican Patois". Badman is even worse, I can understand maybe a word in ever 10, or so.
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I got it eventually, at least most of the time, and I am a white Canadian living on the west coast :P
Loved The Wire by the way, some of the best TV I have ever seen.
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Amish wiretaps? (Score:2)
The Amish aren't really known for engaging in activities that warrant wire tapping. And do they have phones to tap in the first place?
Maybe they are using an illegal "secret ingredient" in that delicious Shoofly pie: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoo_fly_pie [wikipedia.org] . . . ?