Paperless Tickets Flourish Despite 'Grandma Problem' 425
Hugh Pickens writes "Is a concert ticket a piece of property that its holder has the right to buy and sell as he sees fit, or is it merely a seat-rental contract subject to restrictions determined by its issuer? The Washington Post reports that in an effort to thwart scalpers and dampen ticket reselling on the so-called secondary market, musicians as diverse as Bruce Springsteen, Miley Cyrus, and Metallica have adopted 'paperless ticketing' for some or all of the seats at their live shows. Ticket issuers Ticketmaster and Veritix tout paperless tickets as a way to eliminate worries about lost, stolen, or counterfeit tickets, and to banish long will-call lines. But paperless tickets aren't really tickets at all, but essentially personal seat reservations, secured electronically like airline tickets. Fans buy tickets with a credit card and must then go to the venue with the same credit card and a photo ID to gain admittance. The problem is that Ticketmaster's paperless tickets can't be transferred from a buyer to a second party. The inability to pass along a seat creates what has become known in the industry as the 'grandma problem': it's almost impossible for a grandma living at one end of the country to buy a paperless ticket to giver to a grandchild living at the other end. Without the ability to transfer virtual tickets, brokers and dealers fear being run out of business, and consumers have a harder time selling unwanted tickets. 'People should be free to give away or sell their tickets to whomever they want, whenever they want,' says Gary Adler, a Washington attorney who represents the National Association of Ticket Brokers. 'An open market is really best for consumers.'"
First Sale (Score:1, Interesting)
If I buy something, I own it. Period. If you want to diddle around and chip away at what you will let me buy, then I will buy from someone else, or not at all. Now please DIAF, ??AA.
Had this problem myself (Score:5, Interesting)
Bought tickets to see the show in Seattle and Portland back in March but then got laid-off in April, and sent back home ~2000 miles away. I couldn't sell the tickets on ebay because they were tied to me (had to show ID and credit card to gain entrance). And I couldn't get a refund either.
So basically I got screwed. I ended-up flying across the country rather than waste the tickets. Like downloading games, it takes away your right to resell the used product to someone else
Another problem for performers (Score:1, Interesting)
One of the advantages of tickets as we are used to them is that if you are not able to make it to the show, you can sell your tickets (or give them away). How is it going to look when venues that are sold out are not full. Will it effect the concert experience for the worse or better? Will people be pissed that they maybe could have gone to the show because there were open seats, but were not allowed to buy the ticket?
No grandma problem here (Score:1, Interesting)
Just offer an option to buy the ticket for another person. This person gains admittance if that person is able to identify itself with the name on the ticket. Should be simple right?
I personally have no problem with reserverations. The same holds true for plane and some highspeed train tickets. I don't see why concerts should be any difference.
The REAL problem.... (Score:5, Interesting)
Is the perception by the concert organisers that there's action out there they ain't getting a piece of.
They can't raise their ticket prices too high, or they won't sell enough to fill their venues, and face protests from their audiences. But they'd dearly love to be able to do what the scalpers do which is create a sub-segment of their audience who pays a greatly increased price for essentially the same service.
The only idea they have so far is that if they drive the scalpers out of business... well, what? If they already set the ticket prices as high as they dare, the only effect they will achieve is to piss off a few rich people who will not get tickets where previously they could.
You could view it as preparation for the next logical step - a Dutch auction. Non-transferable tickets would prevent scalpers from waiting for the latter stages of the auction where the tickets get cheaper to snap up a bargain. The Dutch auction means that all the seats in the house go for exactly the price that the market will bear, so they finally get the action they are craving.
Too Used to Microsoft EULAs (Score:5, Interesting)
Man, you guys are just too used to Microsoft EULAs.
All this talk of no sympathy for scalpers.
Might as well add used book retailers, music traders, software peddlers, refurbished computer sellers.
Just because it's easy to not like scalpers, you are trying to deny consumer choice.
You're part of the problem, assholes.
Re:Though shit (Score:3, Interesting)
Oh let's see. When I try to buy tickets as soon as the website "opens" it's virtually impossible. If I do happen to get in, the ticket is in the nosebleed section. Yet scalpers seem to have boatloads of primo seats for sale at some outrageous markup.
The way I fixed it is that I don't go to big name concerts much and will hit the local clubs instead where I don't have to worry so much about some scumbag asswipe with a big pipe slurping up all the great seats.
[John]
e-Tickets in Switzerland and Germany (Score:5, Interesting)
There seem to be two solutions to such a problem :
- A solution I've often found in concerts in Switzerland : (Secutix)
the e-Ticket is simply a 2D-barcode (although it's not "paperless" because most people still print it instead of sending it to smartphones screens) it *is* tied to an identity.
BUT
to enter the concert you are only asked to have a valid barcode. the identity only comes into play if several people attempt to enter the concert using the same barcode (only the one with the matching ID is allowed in).
That doesn't stop you from giving a ticket to a friend.
But that throws distrust on scalper : How do you know the guy is selling you a legitimate ticket and not copying the same single barcode to several clients ? (in which case only the first one can get in before the system detects duplicates).
These e-tickets don't remove your right to resell, but a resell can only happen between trusting friends.
- A solution I've found in German Trains :
the e-Ticket is tied to an identity, but it is not that complicate to refund it and invalidate the barcode, then buy a different ticket.
You can't directly resell a ticket, but you won't lose the ticket.
And the last solution :
Most of those situations still have classic tickets for situations where the e-Ticket doesn't do the trick.
Airlines (Score:1, Interesting)
While they're at it, could they sue some airlines for non-transferable, non-refundable tickets? This practice is completely inexcusable for domestic flights and only marginally excusable for international flights.
Profiteers (Score:3, Interesting)
'People should be free to give away or sell their tickets to whomever they want, whenever they want,' says Gary Adler, a Washington attorney who represents the National Association of Ticket Brokers. 'An open market is really best for consumers.' This is such a huge conundrum.
An open market is a great idea when built around the basic assumption that all the traders in it are potential consumers of the things being traded. But when entities whose sole motivation is profit enter the market, the game changes. The small consumers get screwed because the huge profiteers buy up enormous quantities of commodities and proceed to engage in arbitrage for the sole purpose of turning a profit.
Money goes to money. Wealthy 'investors' buy something up, creating scarcity, driving up the prices, then re-sell for a profit. Profiteering is the problem.
What needs to happen is the venues need to sell their tickets at auction, instead of setting a price based on what they think the tickets are worth. This would let them make most of the money, because the first-sale price would more closely match the actual value of the tickets, and such a system would be much more fair for everyone from the big resellers to the individual consumer.
Re:Had this problem myself (Score:5, Interesting)
What is wrong with scalping? Really? (Score:5, Interesting)
I am sick and tired of people making a big deal about scalping.
Isn't scalping basically the epitome of free market capitalism?
If I buy 10 of the new Xbox 360 from the local Walmart where there are lots, and sell them on eBay for a profit, is that "scalping" 360s ?
When Exxon drills oil in the middle east and sells it to Europe for a profit where there is none, is that "scalping" oil?
"Scalping" is just taking a gamble, buying something that you think will be in demand (tickets), and re-selling for a (hopefully) profit. There is plenty of potential to lose money for scalpers buying tickets to things and them going unsold, this happens all the time.
What is wrong with this? If you wanted your damn tickets, you should have waited in line like everyone else.
Re:So? (Score:3, Interesting)
That works because one of the friends will have a credit card with an "admit 4" ticket associated with it.
Re:Though shit (Score:2, Interesting)
I've always thought that this was weird, that you're there online as soon as tickets go on sale and it's impossible to get through and when you do you manage to get through you get a few crappy seats. And yet touts somehow are getting hold of loads of tickets, as if they've got peering with Ticketmaster's server and access half an hour beforehand or something equally as ridiculous.
I asked someone "in the know" about this one time, and they said the majority of scalpers and touts get hold of a large number of good seats easily by either going to or knowing someone at the venue box office.
Personally I've not had a problem with the few gigs I've been to where I've had to provide ID instead of a ticket, namely the recent free RATM gig in London, but then I make a habit of just getting a few tickets (or just one) for gigs and always tend to go as I only ever book for stuff I'm really interested in seeing, and if I can't go or have a spare ticket I'm usually going as well, or I'll just take the hit. Best thing would be to make the tickets transferrable still, but make it a lot of effort - you have to phone up, give the credit card details for the new person, make it take a few minutes etc. That way, touts would think twice about selling on a large number of tickets given the time investment required, and it would completely eliminate ticket buying/selling outside venues on the date of the gig.
Re:The REAL problem.... (Score:3, Interesting)
The scalpers are helping them though.
The ticket companies may not be able to fully exploit price discrimination, but the scalper is taking on the risk that he won't be able to sell all the tickets he buys. As an ad-hoc broker, he carries that inventory risk so that the organizers don't have to. It's really not much different from hotels selling reservation blocks to discount sites at very low prices and the discount sites eat the cost if they can't fill them up.
If I were in the concert business, I'd be fighting to make "scalping" legal in every way I could.
Re:Limited Options (Score:3, Interesting)
Bands/promoters don't have to use Ticketmaster. They will only do so if Ticketmaster offers a proposition that they like, and better than any competitor. If tickets from Ticketmaster rise, then for sure more money is going to the band or promoter who contracted Ticketmaster. Ticketmaster will be on a percentage; they can't just raise the prices and keep all the extra to themselves.
So yes, if you want as much of the ticket money as possible to go to the band, then it's far better that Ticketmaster gets any extras than scalpers do.
Personally I think scalpers are the scum of the earth, and would make it a criminal offence to sell tickets for greater than face value. With penalties similar to the penalties for prostitution. Have the police put the scalpers in jail for the night, and they'll lose any money from any unsold tickets they have in their possession at the time.
Re:So? (Score:3, Interesting)
For example with ticketpod.nl, if you order 4 tickets, you get 4 separate tickets, each with its own bar-code, rather than one master ticket with a count.
Do what U2 does: problem solved. (Score:2, Interesting)
U2 initially sell concert tickets based on how long you've been a member of their fan club. Being a long-time member, I have the privilege of easily being able to get the best tickets days before, say, newer fan club members (and even longer than the general public). Scalper issue solved for 'real' fans.
Don't have a long-time fan club membership? Tough shit (sorry, Grandma!).
Purchased $50 tickets for being right up against the front stage, even hours after the tickets go on sale (as in the 97,000 record-breaking sell-out at the Rose Bowl last year).
Want to sell those tickets? No problem. I was quite tempted to sell based on seeing prices on eBay (you simply exchange that ticket for a wristband for those with G.A. admission at the venue).
Brilliant. No fans complained. "Real" U2 fanatics had their tickets for far less than eventual scalper prices.
Could U2 have made much more money, knowing it would sell out by only charging $50 when $250 would have sold just as easily? Well, that's a whole different topic.
Re:Limited Options (Score:5, Interesting)
I agree with you that the GP's "rich boy" call was out of place, but so is your "change your life" argument.
My statement was meant to be taken as a whole. People need to learn to accept their lot in life. If you don't like it, change your situation. Complaining about it focuses negative energy and generally gets you nowhere but further down in the hole.
I'd never presume to make a judgment about what a person has or earns; however I make judgments all the time about someone who earns X but wants to live the lifestyle of someone who earns X*2. I know many people who have combined household incomes that are well below my own income but who are perfectly happy. Conversely, I know people who's incomes are vastly superior to my own who are miserable.
We live to our means and easy credit and "keep up with the Jones's" syndrome runs rampant in our society.
My argument is to live within your means and be happy with what you have. Individuals are the authors of our own destiny. Hence my statement that if you don't like what you have, work to change it. If you're not willing to take positive steps to change what you have; don't complain about it, and certainly don't rail against someone who has [more|better|different] standard of living than you. It does no good for anybody. Am I wrong?
This isn't a personal attack by the way. I'm just answering your question about "why does mentioning the fact that one has money produce so much hate"
It's not even a case of mentioning money; it seems to be a case where someone mentions something that would require money, and that in and of itself becomes a target of ire.
One of my goals in life was to have stability and financial security. I achieved that some years ago and now I'm working towards the next level. I have my own goals in mind. I also have non monetary goals which I'm also working to achieve. There are people who have other goals in life, many of which are non monetary, which make them happy, and that's great for them.
If you're not happy in what you're doing or where you are, you have to ask yourself why you're doing it or why you're there. If there's a drastic change necessary to alter your situation to the point where you're happy you should consider making it. One area where I draw the line is people who don't feel the need to improve themselves or their personal situations. That's always driven me up the wall.
Back to the topic at hand, if premium concert tickets at major venues is one of your goals in life, you'll prioritize it and find a way to make it happen. If it's not a priority it won't happen. Sometimes it takes sacrifice in other areas of one's life to attain certain other things and that's a choice we all have to make. When I was struggling working 3 jobs to make ends meet, there were times when I decided that I was simply going to have {$X} and there was nothing anybody could to do stand in my way, and I made it happen.
For those who don't like concerts, rock shows, major venues or Ticketmaster; why expend the energy on this thread complaining about it? What good is it accomplishing in their lives?
Re:Too Used to Microsoft EULAs (Score:1, Interesting)
Scalpers (now called "ticket brokers") pay homeless people to stand in line so the minute tickets go on sale they can buy up blocks of hundreds of tickets at a time. Then the concert sells out in 10 minutes, so instead of being able to buy tickets at my leisure and select the seat I want, I have to find a broker, pay 2-3 times the face value of the ticket, and then only be able to select from the seats he has.
Used book/game/music sellers are actually *good* because they provide a secondary market where you can buy things at a much lower price. Nobody's complaining about buying a $50 book for $5. Scalpers, however, are taking over the primary market and charging a much higher price. Nobody wants to pay $500 for a $50 ticket.
The grandma problem can be solved the same way airlines do. Simply allow you to purchase tickets in somebody else's name and give refunds (yes, there still are refundable airline tickets, they're just not the cheap ones) to those who end up with tickets they can't use.
dom
Re:The REAL problem.... (Score:4, Interesting)
Another possibility is based on an idea a mathematician friend of mine heard at a conference. The speaker claimed that even with different classes, there is generally no way for airlines to make money if prices are fixed (if you raise the price high enough to break even, the plane won't be full). The solution is to change prices all the time, to get each passenger to pay as close to their intrinsic value as possible. People whose time is valuable will do one search, choose the cheapest flight (or even a more expensive yet more convenient one) and be done with it, while people whose time is less so will search and search, day after day, till they feel that given the inherent variability in the price that they would rather lock in now than risk paying (much) more (an expected value and/or gambling/insurance test). Those who want a guaranteed seat will book at whatever the going rate is, while those who will risk it may wait till the last minute. A Dutch auction would be preferable from the airline's perspective, but with multiple routes and multiple companies, you don't have the monopoly that venues do, making it much harder to do well.
I'm not sure why more venues that already sell tickets through Ticketmaster don't use Dutch auctions (makes sense why non-online sales couldn't do it); my guess is venue promoters don't know about it, or are confused and scared of doing things and making money differently than they've done before (sounds like the RIAA).
Re:Limited Options (Score:4, Interesting)