Turkey Has Reportedly Banned Google 531
oxide7 and a number of other readers sent word (from mostly non-authoritative sources as yet) that Turkey had imposed an indefinite ban on some Google properties. "Turkey's Telecommunications Presidency said it has banned access to many of Google IP addresses without assigning clear reasons. The statement did not confirm if the ban is temporary or permanent. Google's translation and document sharing sites have also been banned indefinitely along with YouTube and Facebook in the country. Other services such as AppEngine, FeedBurner, Analytics, etc., have also been reportedly banned." Some real-time commentary (much of it in Turkish) can be found at Twitter hashtag #TurkeyCensoringGoogle. We have noted in past years the censorious ways of Turkish courts.
Flow of Information (Score:5, Insightful)
As the Americans learned so painfully in Earth's final century, free flow of information is the only safeguard against tyranny. The once-chained people whose leaders at last lose their grip on information flow will soon burst with freedom and vitality, but the free nation gradually constricting its grip on public discourse has begun its rapid slide into despotism. Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master.
Commissioner Pravin Lal
"U.N. Declaration of Rights"
source [generationterrorists.com]
Re:Flow of Information (Score:5, Insightful)
Think. (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Seriously (Score:5, Insightful)
All NATO stands for is opposing Russia and its allies, if you think it stands for human rights or anything you should look at the conflicts in the cold war and which side the US supported.
Re:Flow of Information (Score:5, Insightful)
Yet, Turkey is/was a charter nation in the creation of the United Nations; they've also been a member in NATO since the Cold War.
Somehow, something has changed. It's interesting that this so closely coincides with the "blockade" incident with Israel, on account of many of the participants having been Turkish citizens.
I wonder if either of these events have anything to do with the recent (2002) elections in Turkey, where the AKP party (a 'religiously conservative' party with strong Islamic 'influence') won the seats of government in overwhelming numbers. It would certainly explain socio-political events since that time, if indeed they're moving closer towards the Islamic "center" (as Iran claims having done themselves).
Or, put another way... (Score:3, Insightful)
I dunno, but it seems to me that dogmatic, xenophobic, recidivist behaviour is on the rise worldwide -- Islam certainly has no corner on the market for running amok, not now, and not historically, and the term "Christian" probably carries as much negative baggage through the years as "Muslim" does.
Meanwhile, Christianity also has no corner on the market for truly pious, love-thy-neighbour actions -- one of my good friends growing up made it his life's mission to open an elementary school for the poor in his home town, and a book drive at our high school helped get him the beginnings of their library. A fellow named Ali, who is Bangladeshi, and Muslim.
Just sayin'.
Cheers,
Re:Flow of Information (Score:5, Insightful)
Yet, Turkey is/was a charter nation in the creation of the United Nations; they've also been a member in NATO since the Cold War.
The UN is populated more by dictatorships than anything approaching "free countries", and NATO broke down into a "sign this paper against communism and the US will give you money" almost instantly.
Re:Flow of Information (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Flow of Information (Score:5, Insightful)
It is indeed to do with the AKP party - but that is nothing new for turkey - what is new that this time the army has not responded with a coup as it normally does when religious folk get out of control in turkey. I think it has happened at least 3 or 4 times so far.
This is true, and entirely the fault of the EU. The -people- of Turkey want a religious, sharia law based, dictatorship. It's a foreign thought to western minds, but as you point out they've pressured for such a gov't several times. At which point the, highly secular, military comes out in a minor coup and re-establishes what was the second freest nation in the area.
The EU didn't like that, so as such a gov't is being implemented now the military is holding back and not correcting the situation, and we get headlines like this one.
Turkey (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Flow of Information (Score:3, Insightful)
As it is frequently commented on here, people fail to read the whole summary, and more often the article itself. It would be irrational to assume anyone would follow a link in a comment. Even if they did, they may not have recognized the name at the top of the page as a game page, and it would simply look like a list of famous quotes. I know I didn't game a lot through that period (busy working and having a life), and therefore didn't recognize the game name, but I did recognize Sid Meier's name.
Re:Flow of Information (Score:3, Insightful)
The west has made it clear they dont want the army to intervene this time, but that is the only thing that can save Turkey from the Islamists.
That is because the West has become weak and thinks that the more meek it gets, the more everyone will suddenly love it.
In truth, our enemies still hates us and we are losing what allies we once had.
Re:Flow of Information (Score:2, Insightful)
Democracy doesn't mean the tyranny of the majority should run unchecked. Almost 80% of people in general believe in an invisible sky wizard, so without safeguards to keep the religious majority from running roughshod over reality, "democracy" is eight wolves making the rules for two sheep.
Re:Seriously (Score:3, Insightful)
"Muslim" is probably too big of an umbrella - Bosnia and Herzegovina is Muslim in half (and it seems that part of population was one of less warmongering during Balkan wars), is on the way towards EU membership with which it shouldn't have major issues; and generally with integrating. Germany has also large Muslim population, which despite any problems is quite succesfully integrated; Turks, accidentally. Spain should be do well in the future, too; with already over one million Muslims, and more (mostly Moroccans) surely to come.
There would be of course a problem with many Muslim countries of the group that is more or less bordering the EU sphere of influence, but nobody considers their accession; on either side(*). Except the case of Turkey, of course - and it seems that one might be clearing up soon, eh? (hm, I wouldn't be too surprised if the current situation is considered desirable by many parts of the EU; and with the hopes of slightly pouring oil on the fire - not as some sort of conspiracy of course, but as common goal)
(*) There's the issue of unwilling to integrate immigrants from many of those places, but that's a separate thing.
Re:Flow of Information (Score:4, Insightful)
Apparently "democracy" in America means the tyranny of the rich minority runs unchecked. In the absence of something to provide a moral compass, money has filled the vacuum and now anything is OK as long as it makes money.
Re:Or, put another way... (Score:5, Insightful)
> I dunno, but it seems to me that dogmatic, xenophobic, recidivist behaviour is on the rise
> worldwide -- Islam certainly has no corner on the market for running amok, not now, and not
> historically, and the term "Christian" probably carries as much negative baggage through
> the years as "Muslim" does.
This quote is a good example of an all too common species of politically correct fool. So much wrong with it. It assumes time is immaterial. That events in the dark past are indisinguishable from current events and carry the exact same moral weight. That persons, events and movements must be judged with the exact same modern politically correct intolerant eye.
We are still crawling up from the muck, people and events must be viewed from the perspective of the time they occured in. For example the US Founders lived in a time when slavery was accepted as normal and had been since recorded history began. Individual liberty of any sort was a REVOLUTIONARY idea. After exhausting peaceful means they became violent revolutionaries. And most of them understood the inherent conflict between slavery and "All Men are created equal..." but also realized the new nation wasn't ready to follow where that line of thought lead. But notice that less than a century later the only places still practicing slavery were parts of Africa and the Middle East outside the range of the British Navy. Christianity did some nasty things but went through the Enlightenment, pretending that didn't happen and judging it as if that didn't happen and that the religion of the Inquisition still exists unchanged is daft.
Islam didn't experience the Enlightenment and rejects it today. The past is just that, past; we have a problem in the here and now as a result. Islam's rejection of the foundational principles of modern civilization is a problem NOW. Coexistance isn't even possible because of their expansionist and supremisist ideas. We in the West either abandon our civilization and accept Sharia or sooner or later (and with Nukes spreading it better be sooner) we are going to be forced to end Islam as it is currently known and practiced. That means Ann Coulter's solution of "Invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity." It will be the worst human rights atrocity in recorded history but I'm damned if I see a better solution. We just don't have the time left to embark on a psyops action to slowly pervert their religion so as to remove the nastier bits.
So if it comes down to them or me I'm picking me and mine. Politically incorrect selfish bastard that I am. Future generations can flagelate themselves like the modern campus set do now about the American Indians, the Monroe Doctrine, ending WWII with the Bomb, the Cold War or any of that other stuff. So long as it IS civilization having that discussion in the future and not some starving primitives worshiping an insane child molester in a radioactive wasteland. And they will be sort of 'right' in that by the more advanced civilization our hard choices will allow them to build what we will do in our day will BE wrong... but still making the same mistake modern scholars keep making of judging us by their standards. So be it.
Re:Flow of Information (Score:5, Insightful)
Where do you get off talking about "conventional" literacy? The form has been living and evolving for more than five thousand years, and certainly wasn't destined to peak "when you were younger". The quote you're bitching about contains a specific point of view that was communicated effectively enough that at least one reader(whatever) was able to apply it in a manner that conveyed his thinking on a similar but unrelated topic.
How many authors have failed to hit that mark?
Re:Flow of Information (Score:5, Insightful)
The -people- of Turkey want a religious, sharia law based, dictatorship. It's a foreign thought to western minds, but as you point out they've pressured for such a gov't several times. At which point the, highly secular, military comes out in a minor coup and re-establishes what was the second freest nation in the area.
No, some people in Turkey want a religious government, some would like sharia law, and a few would like a dictatorship. The number of people that actually want all those things together is probably rather small.
Re:Flow of Information (Score:5, Insightful)
As an aside, to all the people who bring the US into unrelated conversations - take a look at its history - the US is by a wide margin the historically the best (in terms of how they treat others) superpower of all time. They make mistakes a-plenty (some on purpose too) - but bringing them into comparisons of islamists or the like as if you would not care if a country like Iran replaced the US as the main superpower in the world is just plain and simple stupid. Please take a step back and consider what you are saying.
Re:Flow of Information (Score:3, Insightful)
Kurds in turkey suffer no matter what the government. The islamists are not fans, neither were the supporters of ataturk. Since gaining power they have continued their attacks on the kurdish part of Iraq, as well as the kurds within turkey. If you think your lot is going to improve with them, you are sorely mistaken. The best hope of the Kurds is a separate country (kurdistan), or the realisation of the dream of a secular and western turkey. Neither is going to be achieved without outside help.
Problem NOW is the West's, too (Score:4, Insightful)
Historical allegory aside, my intent was actually more to point out the fallacy of couchslug's professing to have a handle on the "true Muslim character". What is the "true Muslim character"? What is the "true Christian character"? My friend is a devout Muslim, and one of the kindest, gentlest, most sincere people you could hope to meet. I'd much rather spend time in his company than with some of the self-identified Christians I've had the misfortune to know, who claim some personal connection with Jesus at one moment, and happily spout bigoted hateful venom the next.
Islam has its own foundational principles of modern civilization. That these foundational principles don't happen to match your own is an issue of cultural discourse, not absolutist violence. For that matter, some of the vaunted Enlightenment is actually predicated on learning imported from the Muslim world.
Swap "their" here for "our" -- for can we not say exactly the same thing about the US? The United States, for all its fanfare and mythologizing, has been one of the biggest thugs on the planet for the better part of a century.
Given that the core tenet Christianity is essentially "love thy neighbor", it sounds like you've hit the nail on the head here -- I'd hazard that neither Ann Coulter nor yourself are all that familiar with the underlying ideals you both seem to be espousing. Never mind the general ignorance of what Islam is. Yes, there are wacko bad apples, and yes, some of these elements happen to run countries. These do not define Islam, any more than Pat Robertson speaks for all Christianity, though they do appear to define the face of Islam as perceived by many here in the US.
Moreover, any look at the cultural friction between the many countries and political groups identifying themselves as Islamic must look as well at how the various governments of the West are fully implicated in helping to polarize and poison the dynamics at work. For instance, the situation with Iran and militant Shiism owes much to the hamfisted bungling of MI5, the CIA, and our friend in the Gulf, BP. Being ignorant of the West's role in defining the anger and resentment expressed by many of the more vocal elements of the Muslim world is fixable and excusable; ignoring it is hypocritical. The West helped create this problem, and the West must also help solve it, constructively. Sadly, Afghanistan, Iraq, and now Gaza, among other present issues, aren't helping.
Cheers,
Re:Flow of Information (Score:5, Insightful)
The -people- of Turkey want a religious, sharia law based, dictatorship.
I take it you have never met any of the Turkish people, or ever travelling to Turkey? I have, and found that most people do not want anything to do with the kind of ultra-conservative views you attribute to them.
Basically, your position is the same as saying "The -people- of the United States want a religious, Ten Commandments law based, dictatorship", based on the government of George Bush being overtly Fundamentalist Christian, and being elected by the people of the U.S.
In fact, what the people of Turkey mostly want is good government and an end to corruption, security and prosperity, and for much of the youth, to be E.U. citizens so that they can freely study and travel in the rest of Europe. The election of AKP was more to do with rejecting the policies of the previous administration than endorsing Islamism.
Re:Flow of Information (Score:3, Insightful)
I didn't need any attribution to recognize that as one of your originals. The commas are, as usual, fucking wrong.
Re:Flow of Information (Score:3, Insightful)
A sizable number clearly do support the conservative/islamicists, or they wouldn't have been elected.
I suggest your sample is somewhat skewed, the reasons for which ought to be obvious even to you.
Re:Flow of Information (Score:2, Insightful)
A sizable number clearly do support the conservative/islamicists, or they wouldn't have been elected.
"A sizable number (of Americans) clearly do support the conservative/Christian fundamentalists, or they wouldn't have been elected." - Would that be a fair assessment of Bush-era American politics? Maybe. Or maybe the real world is more complex than that.
You should try to read and understand why AKP was elected, and what they represent. Note that 57.4% of the Turkish electorate did not vote for AKP.
As usual, the true situation is more complicated in real life than the simplistic parodies that people like to believe. AKP represents Islamism in the same way that the Christian Democratic Union [wikipedia.org] represents Christian governance. Would you also denounce the CDU for advocating a conservative, Christian form of government?
AKP is highly Euro skeptic. (Score:3, Insightful)
AKP is highly Euro skeptic. In fact, they're election was partially distrust of Europe.
Europe will not favor enlarging again for quite some time given the recent economic problems. In fact, Turkey would unquestionably join the ranks of the PIGS [wikipedia.org]. I'm doubtful that Germany, France, etc. will ever feel like they've fixed the PIGS situation, so Turkey is effectively out permanently.
You know, Turkey never had very good odds for entering anyways. Greece would oppose them for military reasons. France would oppose them since France requires a public referendum for new admission into the E.U. Austria would oppose them for Austrian reasons. In fact, Switzerland would even oppose them now that Switzerland joined Schengen.
In the long run, Croatia and Montenegro will all be admitted before Turkey, but they'll vote against Turkey for religious reasons. Bosnia and Serbia might not be admitted for quite some time either, but Serbia would also oppose Turkey's entrance too.
p.s. E.U. expansionism has basically been a substitute for unpopular immigration that allows political elites to lower labor costs. Imho, they are crazy about labor costs not for competing with developing nations, but largely China. China cannot manipulate their currency indefinitely, which will remove the immediate pressure. All the newly admitted countries like Poland will provide cheap labor for some years, with the Ukraine another possible expansion if China holds out.
p.s.2 There has been however an European policy of educating people from Central and South America, kinda an opposition to the Monroe Doctrine. We're now seeing this policy provide higher quality and more culturally similar immigrants than Turkey, the Middle East, or Africa. Face it, if people see Turks or Africans they think Shira law or female circumcision, but if people see Brazilians they think Carnival and barbecue. And immigration from the Americas could easily provide the required labor force control.