Australia Air Travelers' Laptops To Be Searched For Porn 647
bluetoad writes "Australian customs officers have been given the power to search incoming travelers' laptops and mobile phones for porn. Passengers must declare whether they are carrying pornography on their Incoming Passenger Card. The Australian government is also planning to implement an Internet filter. Once these powers are in places, who knows how they will be used."
So... (Score:5, Interesting)
So they can search for porn. What can they do if they find it? Is porn illegal in Australia now?
Re:So... (Score:5, Funny)
Re: (Score:2, Funny)
Who knows, but if you thought the lines were long now... On most geek laptops, this could take a while.
No, they're just going to have a third booth for you to go to at customs. One for something to declare, one for nothing to declare, and a third for Pornography. The third one will have a line out to the tarmac.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
I call rule 34 on tarmac pr0n.
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alright! i've heard people saying "fuck the world", but actually fucking the tarmac? ouch... forgive me if i don't think too much about the how and why of that one.
Re:So... (Score:4, Funny)
I've had this fetish for years, but searching any streaming porn site for "hot sticky black" just brings up wholly disappointing results.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
ha ha ha...
I was thinking more along the lines of a nice open "porn" folder in "My Pictures" (because if you have linux they won't likely be able to search, and instead just confiscate your notebook). In said folder I'll place pictures of all the different dismembered electronics bits (Geek Porn), and one rick roll video.
While I'm sure this will make my travel times longer, I also think it will be worth it :-)
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
ha ha ha... I was thinking more along the lines of a nice open "porn" folder in "My Pictures" (because if you have linux they won't likely be able to search, and instead just confiscate your notebook). In said folder I'll place pictures of all the different dismembered electronics bits (Geek Porn), and one rick roll video.
I was thinking more along the lines that Goatse, Lemonparty, and Hitler's face photoshopped onto naked women's bodies all constitute porn. Really, after an eyefull of that, they're not gonna go looking for my real porn folder.
Re:So... (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes the real question is in the "declare" part.
If you say "no" in good faith and they find you with "anything", things can get legally interesting as you lied on your paperwork.
Citizen journalist, authors, speakers, protesters with story time limits can all face a long time wasting legal choke point.
Sitting in detention as they appeal the fine point of "declare" and the material found on their computers.
Days later they are released with a no comment due to privacy laws from the federal gov. Their story/work lost and reputations damaged.
Buy a new HD/ssd before entering Australia and install only productivity apps.
Encrypt anything in/out while networking in Australia and buy a new HD/ssd on exiting.
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I know what you mean.
My girlfriend has looked like a 14 year old for the last 12 years.
We get odd looks all the time.
I can't buy alcohol if they see her in line with me at the store.
I'm not really complaining.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Forever Nested.
\pr0n\haha just kidding\ then a symlink back to \pr0n
Re:So... (Score:5, Funny)
This post shows good understanding of Linux/Unix symlinks but not of slashes vs. backslashes. Weird.
Re:So... (Score:5, Insightful)
Is porn illegal in Australia now?
Nope. FTFA:
Patten said if the question was designed to stop child pornography being smuggled into the country then the question should have been asked about "child pornography", without encompassing regular porn.
Because you totally need to bring a hard drive into the country to bring along CP, you can't use those newfangled technologies like encrypted network connections and proxies to get around it.
What a giant circle jerk of pretending they are helping the victims.
Re:So... (Score:4, Insightful)
What a giant circle jerk of pretending they are helping the victims.
Now how can you say that? They are ASKING you if you have porn on your computer. Surely no self respecting kiddie porn pervert would disgrace himself by LYING, would he?
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Well, when they're caught later, if you can prove they lied on their customs form you can put them away for even longer.
Re:So... (Score:4, Insightful)
so that those in power look "tough" on cp crimes? ;)
duh!
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man touch
Re:So... (Score:5, Insightful)
So they don't have child porn but by that point nobody likes them and you can send them to jail for having the image from a popup in their temporary internet files.
fantasic!
you know what would be easier?
if we just did away with these court things. they're really just a hassel anyway.
Re:So... (Score:5, Interesting)
As the article says, if child porn is the issue then why not just limit it to that? The same question has been asked about the proposed internet filter, which the government also claims is for protecting people from child porn but has been extended to cover all refused classification [acma.gov.au] material.
Just as filtering the internet as has been proposed isn't really feasible (at least with little impact on speed), I highly doubt customs agents would or can search the tons of laptops and phones coming into Australia. All it would take is one person with 10GB of porn to keep them busy for a couple hours.
Re:So... (Score:4, Insightful)
This is only the latest in a string of censorship proposals that the government claims are targeted towards protecting people from child pornography.
The whole idea of protecting people from kiddie porn is just ludicrous. The laws are supposed to be about protecting the _kids_ from being exploited, not "protecting" adults from being exploiters (if you consider downloading free stuff from the internet to be "exploitive"... IMHO the exploitation has already happened and anyone downloading the content isn't doing anything to help the exploiters unless they are paying for it).
Re:So... (Score:5, Insightful)
But more to the point, if someone downloads CP from usenet (or similar service) and thus there is no indication to the producer/creator that it was being consumed, how is that encouraging more creation of the product?
Re:So... (Score:5, Insightful)
I imagine this could have serious consequences for Japanese and other Asian travelers were images of child porn (i.e. anime and manga) are perfectly legal. In Australia such drawings are outlawed, even though there's NO victim in this so-called crime. Stupid, stupid, stupid.
I don't know why our Aussie cousins put up with such nonsense, and do not demand repeal of these laws that infringe upon the individual rights of both artists and users of the art. Freedom of expression is given to us by our Creator (god or nature) and no government has legitimate authority to take away that right, anymore than it has a right to cut off our hands or gouge-out our eyes.
Re:So... (Score:4, Insightful)
I imagine this could have serious consequences for Japanese and other Asian travelers were images of child porn (i.e. anime and manga) are perfectly legal.
Tough shit. My handgun is completely legal the United States. If I take it into another country where it's not legal I'm going to be charged. Maybe the Japanese should leave their kiddie porn at home when they travel to the West?
Re:So... (Score:5, Insightful)
Or do you think there really are impossibly proportioned cartoon people in the real world, with emotions other than those that the artist has attributed to them at the exact time being pictured? Do they have a family history? Are they going to grow up in later life and abuse other cartoon people?
Re:So... (Score:4, Insightful)
I'll help you get that legal the second you can get cartoons of Mohammed legal.
Re:So... (Score:4, Insightful)
"I'll help you get that legal the second you can get cartoons of Mohammed legal."
Start working, show me a law (outside of Muslim/Islamic countries) that makes it illegal to draw Mohammed.
Re:So... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3)
>>>Maybe the Japanese should leave their kiddie porn at home when they travel to the West?
Someone who doesn't know his geography probably doesn't know much about Individual Human Rights or Natural Law Philosophy either. No doubt that's why you ignored the rest of my posting - The Australian government has no more legitimate authority to outlaw art, then it does to cutoff the artist's hand, or to enslave the artist.
Re:So... (Score:4, Informative)
He probably meant "The West" as in "Locales of Westernized Culture", of which Oz is included.
Re:So... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:So... (Score:5, Insightful)
a gun is dangerous
A gun is no more dangerous than a motor vehicle, but that's rather beside the point that I was trying to make. If you visit a foreign country you have to abide by the laws of that jurisdiction. I don't happen to agree with Saudi Arabia's laws regarding women but I wouldn't suggest that my sister fly there and try to rent a car as an act of civil disobedience.....
Re:So... (Score:5, Insightful)
A gun is no more dangerous than a motor vehicle
You try casually walking into a bank with a ford mustang concealed on your person before donning a clown mask and sticking the place up..
Fact is, a gun's primary (and arguably only real) function is to shoot (at) people, a motor vehicle's primary function isnt running people over..
Re:So... (Score:4, Informative)
You try casually walking into a bank with a ford mustang concealed on your person before donning a clown mask and sticking the place up..
The actions of a few bad apples does not make the device itself dangerous. I could rob that bank with a knife or baseball bat if I was so inclined. Do you regard those items as dangerous?
Fact is, a gun's primary (and arguably only real) function is to shoot (at) people
I guess you've never heard of the shooting sports [wikipedia.org] or hunting?
Re:So... (Score:4, Informative)
I guess you've never heard of the shooting sports [wikipedia.org] or hunting?
Handguns (with some exceptions, of course) are not typically used for either of those things.
Re:So... (Score:4, Informative)
Actually, competitive pistol-shooting is quite popular is some circles. Including the Olympic Games.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
a motor vehicle's primary function isnt running people over..
Which is what makes a vehicle a much better weapon. Hundreds of people are intentionally killed with vehicles monthly. The beauty is, failure to control your car is not a felony in it's self, so no one knows intent; and honestly not as much direct evidence of a crime. A gun implies a intent, leaves lots of evidence everywhere... Only the truly stupid or un-imaginative would use a gun for homicide. It is a real shame everyone isn't taught how to properly handle lethal tools; especially guns and vehicl
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
There are more guns than people in the USA.
Their are fewer cars than people in the USA.
There are more automobile-related fatalities in the USA (42,600 in 2004) than firearms-related fatalities (So, actually, motor vehicles are rather more dangerous than guns...
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Please. why does this have to be so complicated? A flash drive will do. Maybe a 16GB one which is like $30 US? Keep it in your pocket, and they won't even know you have it. Hell, keep one in each pocket, and you have 32GB of porn coming in the country.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Agreed. This is a political play -- an agenda create by those who don't have a clue what they're doing and are too arrogant to consult technical folks that do. It will fizzle when they realize it's fruitless or the media winds no longer blow in a favorable direction.
I've worked at quite a few businesses that promoted very similar -- doomed to failed because we're business people and don't have any idea what we're doing -- initiatives.
Re:So... (Score:5, Insightful)
Or just use TrueCryp and create a hidden partition.
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Re:So... (Score:4, Insightful)
You are over complicating this. They are not going to subject every computer that comes into the country to forensic analysis. Mac or Linux command line: "tar -czvf archive.tgz ~/porndir;rm -rf ~/porndir" or if you use Windows just use the built-in compression system. Better yet, put all your porn in your Dropbox or other cloud storage. Then when they ask if you any porn on your laptop you can honestly answer "no". Of course there was... and there will be again ten minutes after you get to your hotel room... but right now there is honestly no porn. A national firewall is clearly not going to block popular cloud storage providers.
Re:So... (Score:5, Informative)
You should never do shit like: "tar -czvf archive.tgz ~/porndir;rm -rf ~/porndir". If the tar command fails (out of space, no permission and so on) you will lose your entire porn collection! Use && instead of ;
Re:So... (Score:4, Informative)
Yes. Pictures of women over 18 with small breasts are illegal on the grounds that it is "virtual child pornography":
http://www.somebodythinkofthechildren.com/australia-bans-small-breasts/ [somebodyth...ildren.com]
Drawings of girls under 18 are banned because that too is virtual child pornography:
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2010/01/simpsons-powerpuff-girls-porn-nets-jail-time-for-australian.ars [arstechnica.com]
Basically then if they want to arrest you I'm sure they could find something in your porn collection that's illegal, whether its a girl with small breasts or some cartoon porn.
Much like Canada they're very concerned with "virtual" things down there and far less concerned about real crimes. No doubt they'll be banning virtual murder and virtual dangerous driving in computer games next.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Ageism at its best. Puberty in women is usually between ages 15 and 17. There's not much happening at the age of 18.
Re: (Score:3)
Re:So... (Score:4, Informative)
TFA is a bit of a beat-up. Basically, it's just clarifying that customs officers have the right to search your laptop. Just as they do in most other countries (including the US).
The justification in this case is twofold:
- Child porn (yes the old 'think of the children');
- Commercial quantities of regular porn (porn is legal to own and view in Australia, but it is illegal to sell it outside of specific areas and circumstances)
So this is targeted at people bringing in 50 shrinkwrapped XXX DVDs or child porn, rather than average joe who took some nude shots of his wife while on vacation overseas. You don't honestly think Customs has the time or resources to search everyone's laptop. I mean, EVERYONE travels with one these days. Half the time if you don't look suspicious and haven't declared anything they don't even bother putting you through the scanner ... they just say "go on through".
Another case of Australia seeming to have scary laws on paper, but which in reality will have no real effect. They are just there so that there's a legal justification for a search of a laptop in extreme cases (previously I don't think there was a justification for this since the Customs laws hadn't been updated in a while).
Re:So... (Score:5, Insightful)
What can they do if they find it?
I dunno. Download it? Maybe they want to make sure your porn is on the up-and-up?
Maybe the guy who pushed this rule is actually addicted to porn and wants to create a giant archive of it all, print it out and then roll around in the pages. Who knows? Often these people who are so hellbent on getting rid of "offensive things" turn out to be even more deviant than the ones they are attacking.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
"Maybe the guy who pushed this rule is actually addicted to porn and wants to create a giant archive of it all, print it out and then roll around in the pages."
Dude... all you need for that is Usenet and a printer.
And on a completely unrelated note, make sure you wear gloves while refilling your printer's continuous ink supply system. Looks like I murdered a freakin' clown...
Re:So... (Score:4, Funny)
Heh, that reminded me of this:
"Do you have any strong liquor, mind-altering herbs, pornography or material of a lewd and licentious nature ?"
"No"
"Would you like some ?" - Terry Pratchett, Lords and Ladies (I may not have the quotation 100% but it's close enough for slashdot).
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
even more deviant than the ones they are attacking.
It does make sense. It is difficult for people to believe they are not normal (when it is in a bad way.) So they assume everyone else cannot control themselves either, and so try to impose the blame for there own lack of self control on others.
Re:So... (Score:4, Insightful)
What can they do if they find it?
I dunno. Download it?
The simplest solution is to somehow get porn producers within the MPAA umbrella. Charge customs officers a licensing fee for being able to search travelers' porn stashes. Better yet, sue them for piracy for viewing legitimate users' porn. It would be worth it just to see the clash of the giant douchebags. Does opposing douchebaggery cancel out and leave the world a happy place?
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Re:So... (Score:5, Interesting)
Photos of Iran [pagef30.com] from before the Islamic revolution of 1979. It's happened before and it could happen again.
Foiled again. (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Foiled again. (Score:5, Funny)
Well there goes my plans to smuggle porn into Australia and use it in a terrorist attack.
Gives 'blowjob' a whole new meaning...
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Don' tell this to the feds, but even if you can't get the optics normally used for it you should always be able to get paper and pencils, and even if you can't find that, i can assure you that you'll always manage to get wood.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
I really hope you mean "swallow one whole"
What do you mean? An African or European swallow?
Ok (Score:5, Funny)
Well, I hope the guards are really desensitized because once they search my laptop they will most likely vomit.
Re:Ok (Score:5, Funny)
Damn, where's the "overinformative" mod when you need it
Re: (Score:2)
Damn, where's the "overinformative" mod when you need it
I was saying that as sarcasm, but if I travel to Australia in the near future I think I will start keeping adult content on my desktop. "What? You don't like SWAP.AVI? Sorry, pal. Here's a bucket."
Who is pushing for this? (Score:3, Informative)
In the US this kind of thing would usually be blamed on politicians pandering to the Christian right. Are there really a lot of fundies in Australia too? I always thought it was a very laid back sort of country.
Re:Who is pushing for this? (Score:4, Informative)
It used to be. But the Christian groups seem to have the current government by the balls. And the opposition leader is a fundamentalist as well, so we are fucked either way.
Re:Who is pushing for this? (Score:4, Informative)
Have you not been reading in the past few years since Stephen Conroy [wikipedia.org] assumed office? He's been spearheading all of these censorship efforts.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Try this http://www.abc.net.au/compass/s1358912.htm [abc.net.au]
"Family First: A Federal Crusade" gives a basic guide into a few decades of political left and right infiltration by a powerful, tax free well funded, faith based network.
The part about "comment at a pre-polling booth that lesbians like Ingrid Tall should be burnt at the stake along with all the other witches. " and "implored Chris
SD card (Score:2)
Censorship (Score:5, Insightful)
Censorship is not only morally wrong, it is ineffective. You chase your tail wasting time and money often to accomplish nothing.
When will people learn?
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Censorship does not need to be perfect to be politically effective.
Don't confuse apathy or poor education with censorship. There was an article in the last Time that was with someone paralyzed at Kent State. What proportion of those born after that in the US know anything other than having heard the name once?
...and? (Score:3, Insightful)
What is it with these nutcases and pornography? ...but sending your own people to an obscure war on the other side of the world to involve them in shooting at civilians, that's okay?
"Eeeeeeek, a woman showing a naked boobie! How horrifying!"
Bounding up excitedly (Score:2, Funny)
What's that you say skippy?
The porn is trapped in the free world!
Back to dream time.
PCI compliance and encryption (Score:5, Insightful)
What if my laptop is encrypted because of PCI compliance? What if it is against the law in my country for me to compromise confidential information, but now Australia demands to see it? Does this mean American businessmen can't travel ao Australia with company laptops?
Or will Australia not search encrypted laptops?
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Why the hell are you browsing porn on a laptop that has PCI information on it!
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Probably it just means corporate and national security outfits will have all sensitive data pass through a nice strong VPN connection. The laptop you carry through customs will be freshly formatted and ready for any amount of probing.
If you're not afraid of retribution you could have a text document sitting on your computer's desktop explaining the situation and advising their nanny state to please sod off. Include a link to here. [nelsonhaha.com]
Yep, that's exactly right (Score:4, Interesting)
That's exactly the way we [irs.gov] do it. We send people to France with some regularity and it's illegal to take an encrypted device into that country. Thus, we wipe the machine and put a base, unencrypted image on it. User flies to France. Once inside, an encypted blob of user data is VPN'd to the local IT guy who puts it on the laptop. User does his job. Before flying out, local IT guy wipes the machine.
If Australia is going to start insisting on poking around in our machines, we'll have to do the same for employees going there.
Of course, if it's optional I imagine our folks won't be subjected to it. Those red passports open a lot of doors. :-)
(Actually, I've never seen one of our "official business only" passports. International travelers have their official passports stored in a safe in Washington D.C. and only get them issued right before departure. So I'm not sure they're red but that's what I've been told.)
Re:Yep, that's exactly right (Score:4, Interesting)
Some of that I can answer, some I can't.
Generally, we don't get any sort of diplomatic treatment when we travel abroad. Yes, tax attaches are housed at embassies. (The Paris assignment is much coveted.) But we're not diplomats in any legal sense. No diplomatic pouches for us.
As for the actual mechanics of the process, it's a part of the culture. The IRS doesn't put sensitive data on any computer that's not owned by the IRS. (At least, as far as field workers are concerned this is true.) We also don't (again, a deeply-ingrained cultural thing) issue multiple computers to one person for extended periods nor do we leave spares in any place outside certain centralized equipment depots. We don't let our hardware be held by third parties except when absolutely necessary. The notion of picking up a computer in-country from the embassy and using it for day-to-day business falls completely outside our security culture.
Remember, after Richard Nixon misused the agency, the IRS got severely slapped in many ways. We're more secure than most agencies. We pay far more attention to customer privacy. We're subject to far more oversight than most. Our people get led away in handcuffs for leaking information that wouldn't even get you fired in private industry. Given that background, our security folks insist that we keep control in-house to the extent possible, even when doing so is pretty darn inconvenient.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
> Does this mean American businessmen can't travel ao Australia with company laptops?
That would be my reading of this law, yes.
Personally, I already have a travel netbook, with a very limited set of data on it. Partly because it means a search isn't going to find anything interesting, partly because it means if I lose the laptop it's a lot less of an issue.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
What if my laptop is encrypted because of PCI compliance? What if it is against the law in my country for me to compromise confidential information, but now Australia demands to see it? Does this mean American businessmen can't travel ao Australia with company laptops?
Or will Australia not search encrypted laptops?
Karma for this:-
Border Agents Can Search Laptops Without Cause, Appeals Court Rules [wired.com]
and
Taking your laptop into the US? Be sure to hide all your data first [guardian.co.uk]
But the US is not alone. British customs agents search laptops for pornography. And there are reports on the internet of this sort of thing happening at other borders, too.
Re:PCI compliance and encryption (Score:4, Insightful)
It isn't an issue of whether or not I'm carrying porn on the laptop. If I have an encrypted laptop, I can't hand over the password to anyone, and yet Australia will demand I do exactly that.
Note to self (Score:5, Insightful)
Customs Inspectors (Score:5, Funny)
travel effects? (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Maybe you were hoping for a +Funny mod, I don't know, but what you _think_ a healthy sexual relationship should consist of is entirely irrelevant.
Now, in case you also didn't bother to RTFA, here are a few choice quotes for you:
"Australian customs officers have been given new powers to search incoming travellers' laptops and mobile phones for pornography, a spokeswoman for the Australian sex industry says."
"If you and your partner have filmed or photographed yourselves making love in an exotic destinatio
What exactly is the criteria for such searches? (Score:2, Insightful)
And what exactly is this hoping to achieve anyway? If someone wanted to smuggle illegal porn into Australia a laptop isn't exactly the most efficient means, just use public email systems and some basic encryption. Unless the government is going to demand that all home PCs have monitoring s
Wow. (Score:4, Insightful)
Not being Australian, I have to ask, "What does the Australian government have against business and tourism?"
Yes, sir, officer (Score:4, Insightful)
Now just define 'porn' for me.
the smurfs (Score:3, Insightful)
are having intercourse with the teddy ruxpins, while the cabbage patch kids are fellating the my little ponies
the tamagotchi orgy centers on aang the last airbender and spongebob square pants is using the tentacled kate gosselin dildo on adam lambert and dick cheney ...
oh i'm sorry, you meant define porn IN GENERAL, not my specific porn, sorry
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Anything that makes the censoring officer aroused.
Imagine this... (Score:5, Interesting)
Scenario 1:
You have a drive full of happy family pictures, with your 2yo running around naked on the beach.
Scernario 2:
You lend your laptop to your 14-15yo something teen for homework or an assignment, who ends up collecting sexy pictures of current love-interest or webcamfling, or whatever. You walk through security with a confident smile because you don't look at pron (on that laptop).
You're jolly entering Australia for a nice warm vacation or business, but you did not get in because you're now in jail for childpornography.
"Sir, did you leave your laptop unguarded? Did you pack your laptop yourself?"
Australia, it could happen to you!
SO... (Score:3, Insightful)
Have they worked out a good, legal definition of what constitutes 'porn'? If they haven't then you;d better not take *any* gadget into Australia.
hey Austrailia, (Score:5, Funny)
This should be amusing... (Score:3, Insightful)
These days my personal laptop has a copy of my family photo archive. (All perfectly innocent... unless you find sunsets and landscapes arousing...) I'm sure this is true of a LOT of people, perhaps even the majority of people who travel with laptops. I suspect my current archive is smaller than average, a few thousand images, under 5GB if I recall. Skimming quickly through this meagre archive is not a quick exercise
If they really intend to inspect every single image on every single incoming laptop then they had better have lots of employees who are not likely to fall asleep...
Like some third world countries (Score:5, Interesting)
Customs Inspector, where is your laptop sir? (Score:3, Funny)
Wow (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Wow (Score:4, Insightful)
Australian here- It's pretty simple really.
We have a political system where, instead of directly voting for a prime minister, we instead vote for our local representative; the party with the most seats gets to elect the prime minister. Essentially.
The problem comes when the two main political parties own almost equal seats, but many seats are "safe" seats. Think Texas. Is a Democrat ever going to be elected in a landslide in Texas? Nah. Is a Republican going to take San Fransisco in a landslide? Nah.
So, politicians focus on the marginal seats. Think Florida, which could go either way.
It just so happens a number of those seats are, currently, in and around Adelaide; a highly religious, conservative city known as "The City of Churches". So, politicians on all sides of the political spectrum are metaphorically sucking the bible belt's dick in order to get those precious one or two seats, which means they can keep/gain government.
Which means our current administration is pushing through knee-jerk think-of-the-children legislation while the opposition is basically screaming "US TOO BUT BIGGER, BETTER, MORE KNEE-JERKY."
It's pure horseshit and doesn't represent the will of the Australian people at all.
History repeating itself (Score:3, Insightful)