Sergey Brin On Google and China 368
yuhong writes "The NY Times has an interview with Sergey Brin on Google and China. A few quotes from it: 'Mr. Brin lived in the Soviet Union until he was nearly 6 years old, and he said the experience of living under a totalitarian system that censored political speech influenced his thinking — and Google's policy. "It has definitely shaped my views, and some of my company's views," he said.' Yes, business is personal, especially these days."
Anger? (Score:3, Interesting)
Seems like the Chinese government may be winning here. They clearly are great at enticing (forcing?) a sense of nationalism and pride [bbc.co.uk] in their people. Amazing how quickly some are turning on Google as if this is entirely their own fault and doing. Now we wait to see if the US Government tries to step in...oh what a show this is becoming.
Re:Anger? (Score:3, Interesting)
The Hong Kong move pretty much nukes that strategy. Now China is allowing access to some of its citizens, but not others. Google is not at fault for the blocking.
Re:Anger? (Score:2)
Seems like the Chinese government may be winning here.
To me it seems like we are winning some of our respect back. I'm glad that a company like Google makes a stand. Do no evil means a lot more now.
Re:Anger? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Anger? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Anger? (Score:3, Insightful)
Liberal as I am I still criticize Obama on many things, but just because there are plenty of valid criticisms to be made doesn't mean we have to ignore the fact that there are a lot of racists out there trying to veil their racism with phony political outrage. I get enough email forwards from conservatives to know that's a fact.
Re:Anger? (Score:2)
Now we wait to see if the US Government tries to step in...oh what a show this is becoming.
Huh? Why would the US government have any interest, whatsoever, in getting involved in this little spat? I can see absolutely no reason why the US government would do that, and at least one good reason not to: they'd just end up looking like nosy assholes who just can't seem to stay out of other people's business.
Re:Anger? (Score:3, Insightful)
What I mean stems from this: "On April 15, the US Treasury will be required by law to issue a report naming countries deemed to be “currency manipulators.”" [csmonitor.com].
If the report names China as a currency manipulator that creates vast trade deficits to benefit their economy (which, for all intents and purposes, they are [google.com]), you can bet the Chinese government will lash out and claim we are protecting and siding with our corporations.
Re:Anger? (Score:2)
Ahh, your post was rather misleading, then. :) Your phrase "step in" seemed to imply that the US government would somehow get directly involved in the Google-China spat, and I really don't see that happening.
However, I *do* think there's a good chance that the US will finally point out China's blatant currency manipulation, as momentum for that has been building for some time, both domestically and internationally.
Re:Anger? (Score:5, Informative)
> Now we wait to see if the US Government tries to step in...oh what a show this is becoming.
Granted Slashdot is tech oriented but you can't look at the Google episode in isolation and expect to understand the entirety of it. Grievances with China have been building for a decade now. Things changed drastically when the Chinese insulted Obama during his trip to Beijing last November and they followed it up by publicly embarrassing him when they sunk the Copenhagen accords a month later. Eyes were opened and whatever goodwill between the Obama administration and China evaporated. The two countries may make token efforts to get along where they can but things have fundamentally changed and it has to do with much bigger economic issues than just Google.
Put the Google stuff (which first emerged shortly thereafter) in this context. People can argue endlessly about whether Google is being hypocritical on flip-flopping on censorship. It is besides the point. The real issue here is corporate espionage, fair play in Chinese market, trade issues, etc.
The next big thing is due out on April 15th. No, not your taexs. The Treasury department is due to release its biannual report on cheating trade nations. Even though China should have been on that list semi-permanently for a decade or more the US has always allowed them to slide. The big question is whether they allow it again this time. If China goes on the list it the first step to trade sanctions and possibly tariffs on Chinese goods. If you read the new lately China is screaming bloody murder and throwing every smoke bomb in their arsenal out to the press.
So yeah, this show is becoming interesting but it going to be much bigger than Google.
Re:Anger? (Score:3, Insightful)
I've been thinking this for awhile. I'm sure executives at Google didn't love having to do censorship in China (it's gotta create a bunch of busywork for the developers, if nothing else), but they went along with it for awhile. However, if I was running a company in China, and it became painfully obvious that the government was trying to hack my systems to get the identities of protesters and try to steal my IP, and at the same time blatantly helping out my local competition ... that sounds like a loosing game.
I'm guessing that somebody originally didn't want to go in to China, and only after the attacks could he get enough support to get others to agree to pull out.
Re:Anger? (Score:2)
I get the feeling.... (Score:5, Insightful)
I applaud refusing to censor information on the internet, this is a line in the sand they have drawn, to perhaps 'do no evil' and in Slashdot spirit we should all be behind it....
Re:I get the feeling.... (Score:3, Insightful)
I too agree with Google's decision to back out of mainland China until the regime decides to grant greater freedoms on information for their people.
You have to take a stand for something. I think that this is a honorable position for Google to take and it improves my opinion of them as a company and of the executives who are going to catch the flack from investors over their decision.
Re:I get the feeling.... (Score:5, Interesting)
Funny how people are spinning this as if telling the second most powerful government on Earth to go fuck itself is the desperate act of an injured victim.
I challenge you to find evidence that they were ever happy with the terms that allowed them to operate in China.
Re:I get the feeling.... (Score:2)
Pusillanimous... couldn't we shorten that to something simpler?
Pussy perhaps?
What I want to know is... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:What I want to know is... (Score:5, Interesting)
Why did Google initially agree to censor search results in the first place if this was their philosophy?
Because Google isn't a monolithic entity with a singular set of unified values? Instead, it's an organization of individuals, with varying viewpoints, and those individuals will wield different levels of power at different times.
In this particular case, my money is on Schmidt and the board overriding Larry and Sergei on the censorship issue based on the obvious business case of moving into China. Plus, they may have been able to rationalize the move by telling themselves that they might be able to do some good in the country by operating there (many people who criticize Google for threatening to leave China do so based on precisely this principle).
But now that there's an obvious business reason *not* to operate in China (the threat of being hacked by individuals whose actions may or may not have been sanctioned by the government), Larry and Sergei find themselves in the position to steer Google, the organization, in a different direction.
At least, that's my read of the situation. But I'm obviously biased, in that I don't start off with the supposition that Google is a fundamentally evil, heartless, money-grubbing mega-corporation that's willing to do anything for a buck, as so many around here seem to think.
Re:What I want to know is... (Score:2)
Getting their foot in the door, maybe?
Or possibly the result of an internal power shift within Google. Plenty of sources have indicated that there are mixed opinions within Google on the issue.
Re:What I want to know is... (Score:4, Informative)
There has been a history of officials over there going "We have these rules but we can negotiate and work out what is necessary for you to come and do business here". Although it isn't new or exclusive to China to have a government just change the rules out from under people or companies "just because" some of the scales are quite egregious. So I wouldn't be surprised if Google says "We like to come to China but censored searches messes with our technology" while their government said "We have our differences for the moment but setup shop here and we can work it out later". Later is now here and it didn't help they have a hunch where the hacking attacks are coming from....
I wonder if the best idea is for Google to stay in China but make it super apparent what is going on. When one access google.(country code) they should see the usual localized Google. When one access google.cn, they should see "Results Filtered" immediately below. Click on that and get a brief, exact, and legal citation explaining why the quality of service is effected. The Chinese net users won't be in favor of Google's actions unless they are aware of how it effects them. If they can't show them what they are missing, the next best thing is to let them know they are missing out where the worst would be pulling the plug.
Re:What I want to know is... (Score:2)
what Brin really learnt from the USSR... (Score:2)
...was that there's always someone who ends up controlling the flow of information, so that someone might as well be you.
Did Brin remembered (Score:2, Insightful)
he lived in Soviet Union until he was nearly 6 years old only after some guy from China cracked some Gmail accounts?
Chinese government surely was fine before that accident because Google censored results without thinking twice about it!
Re:Did Brin remembered (Score:3, Insightful)
First off, for the love of jesus, do you *really* have to start your sentences in the subject line? Because that's not cool or nifty. It's just plain fucking annoying.
Anyway, back to the topic at hand...
Did Brin remembered he lived in Soviet Union until he was nearly 6 years old only after some guy from China cracked some Gmail accounts?
No, more likely Larry and Sergei were overruled during the initial move into China by Schmidt and the board. Then following the hacks, suddenly they found themselves in a position where they could steer the company in a different direction, as they could provide a legitimate business case why the company shouldn't remain there.
Re:Did Brin remembered (Score:2)
No, more likely Larry and Sergei were overruled during the initial move into China by Schmidt and the board.
Shows what you know.
A) Schmidt, Larry, and Sergei don't have to listen to a board because they own enough stock that their opinions are the only ones that matter
B) Any two of them can outvote the third + common stock holders.
This isn't an accident... they set up the company that way. When you buy Google stock, you're essentially buying a non-voting share of their collective brain power.
Bullshit (Score:3, Insightful)
And what's that special "experience" of a totalitarian regime a child can get from the moment he's born up to 6 years old? Please.
A corporation's goal is to increase its profits & market shares. Trying to make it pass as some kind of moral authority is at best a marketing trick for image polishing, and at worst utter hypocrisy.
Re:Bullshit (Score:2)
This is, of course, by order of the US court system, and coincidentally a result of a similar attempt by Ford to use his corporation spread a certain ethical principle:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodge_v._Ford_Motor_Company [wikipedia.org]
Re:Bullshit (Score:2)
Except, of course, if you actually read *all* of the article, and not just the bits that confirm your beliefs, you'd see this bit:
But that sounds a lot less black-and-white, doesn't it?
Re:Bullshit (Score:5, Informative)
A corporation's goal is to increase its profits & market shares. Trying to make it pass as some kind of moral authority is at best a marketing trick for image polishing, and at worst utter hypocrisy.
Bullshit. Every corporation has a charter which outlines the goals of the organization. Many of those charters include a "public good" clause, which is why corporations are often large charity contributors (other than the obvious tax benefits).
There is absolutely *nothing* about the "corporation" structure that disallows moral behaviour, and there are many organizations out there that try to be good corporate citizens. Are those organizations in the minority? Maybe, I don't know. But your fundamental supposition that "A corporation's goal is to increase its profits & market share" and that "Trying to make it pass as some kind of moral authority is at best a marketing trick for image polishing" is complete crap.
Re:Bullshit (Score:4, Informative)
Uhh, the lawyers and individuals involved in the process of incorporating. A corporate charter is a legal document, not a marketing pamphlet.
6 years old (Score:3, Interesting)
Was he at 6 years even know where or what the politics of the country was? If so wow.
Re:6 years old (Score:5, Interesting)
I could have modded, but I rather post on this one.
My first wife was from Czechsolvakia. At 6, she definitely knew the impact of the Communist regime she lived under. (I found out later her father was an honest to god Nazi Youth during the occupation. That is in part why they were so prosecuted by the Party)
I clearly remember the Nixon resignation which happened when I was 5, and the Carter administration/hyperinflation. (I can still recall hearing that at current rates bread would be $300 a loaf in 10 years, and I knew that was more than my parents mortgage)
I remember discussing both at length with my uncle, who I still have long political discussions with on a regular basis.
For some people, it is a integral part of our lives to pay attention to politics and social issues.
Re:6 years old (Score:3, Insightful)
Kids absorb the cultural norms very quickly and will understand who is safe or not.
Even if you say "dont talk about this or that" you are still talking politics with your kids. They learn that the "Man" is not your friend or to be trusted.
They are certainly going to get the point if government goons are tossing the house on a regular basis.
Re:6 years old (Score:3, Insightful)
It's not just about politics and current events, it's about culture as well. I get that. Look at it this way: when you were 6, had your parents taught you not to accept rides or candy from strangers? Well, imagine that kind of thing, plus being taught one or more of the following:
Any child who has to be taught any of the above things is living in an oppressed society (not necessarily by their own government, in the minefield case), and will remember and recognise what these things mean as they get older.
Not impressed. (Score:3, Interesting)
The attitude prevalent around here seems to be one of gushing praise towards Google, like they've completely defied the Chinese government and are standing by their principles. Really, the only difference this move affords Google is that they are no longer mandated by the Chinese government to censor their search. It now falls on the Chinese government to do whatever they want to do.
Google hasn't actually left mainland China. Their research and sales divisions have remained behind. And their map services, music portal and Gmail servers all remain in China. So I'm left with the impression that this is a publicity stunt likely driven by a number of business-related issues. Gmail hosting remaining on the mainland doesn't even address one of the issues of spying on users.
Certainly, such a public action does make a statement, but I wouldn't necessarily consider Google principled any more than any other corporation. Profits are still king and they aren't willing to give up China.
Re:Politial speech influenced 6 yrs old chid. (Score:5, Insightful)
The atmosphere of fear is probably plainly apparent even to a six-years-old. The understanding of the reasons for that comes later.
Re:Politial speech influenced 6 yrs old chid. (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Politial speech influenced 6 yrs old chid. (Score:2, Flamebait)
We have more freedom in US as compared to USSR or China, but don't overestimate it.
Let's see how long the freedom lasts here. [youtube.com]
Re:Politial speech influenced 6 yrs old chid. (Score:4, Insightful)
It is the same as in states- try to voice politically incorrect opinions about race in your place of work, and you will see how "freedom of speech" will protect you.
It will protect you just fine. Everybody in your workplace (well, every reasonable person) will think you're an asshole, but you're in no danger of being "re-educated".
Re:Politial speech influenced 6 yrs old chid. (Score:2)
Re:Politial speech influenced 6 yrs old chid. (Score:2)
The guarantees of free speech in the 1st Amendment to the U.S. Constitution apply only to government censorship. Private entities, such as employers or homeowners, can stifle free speech all they want -- in their domain. That is, an employer can regulate your speech on the job or at the workplace. Homeowners can do the same in their home. The simple solution is to LEAVE and exercise your "free speech" in either a public forum or your own domain, such as your own house.
Honestly, you don't have the right to go off on some racist or any other rant I find offensive in MY home. Ditto for on the job. Feel free to do it in your own home.
Re:Politial speech influenced 6 yrs old chid. (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Politial speech influenced 6 yrs old chid. (Score:3, Insightful)
It is the same as in states- try to voice politically incorrect opinions about race in your place of work, and you will see how "freedom of speech" will protect you.
It will protect you just fine. Everybody in your workplace (well, every reasonable person) will think you're an asshole, but you're in no danger of being "re-educated".
Apparently you've never heard of Diversity Training.
Re:Politial speech influenced 6 yrs old chid. (Score:5, Informative)
Actually, Jews were discriminated against in the USSR at that time (it was semi-official policy). So he might have felt the effects of this discrimination. Or his parents did.
Re:Politial speech influenced 6 yrs old chid. (Score:3, Informative)
Although by the time that Brin was a lad is was not official policy any longer the effects of state persecution against any minority will take a long time to wane
Just think what the general American (and UK) populations perception of Muslims is now and how long it may take to normalise.
Re:Politial speech influenced 6 yrs old chid. (Score:3, Funny)
No, I'm talking about discrimination of 60-70-s. It was not 'line up Jews against the wall and shoot them' type of discrimination, but rather 'we're allowed to have more than 2 Jews work in our department'. Also, discrimination flared up when emigration to Israel/USA had started.
There was a joke which goes like this - a Jewish candidate with perfect resume wants to work in a lab and is refused:
- Why don't you want me to work here?
- Because you'll emigrate soon.
- But I won't emigrate, I love the Party and the USSR!
- Even worse, we don't need idiots here.
Re:Politial speech influenced 6 yrs old chid. (Score:2)
FTFY
Re:Politial speech influenced 6 yrs old chid. (Score:2)
Re:Politial speech influenced 6 yrs old chid. (Score:2, Interesting)
I can confirm that.
Also after 22 years in USSR and 16 years in US, I can assure everyone that I feel more oppressed in US than I ever did in USSR -- if for no other reason then because US imposes on me a culture different from my own, while in USSR I at very least had the luxury of having my native culture being forced on myself. I realize that for Americans it would be the other way around, but this is the only real difference for a person who is not a professional politician.
Re:Politial speech influenced 6 yrs old chid. (Score:5, Insightful)
then because US imposes on me a culture different from my own, while in USSR I at very least had the luxury of having my native culture being forced on myself
What an odd (and really sad) way of looking at life. If you really feel that the US is "imposing" different culture on you, and you feel that your "native culture" was forced upon you, it might be useful to consider what it is that you feel is coming from you yourself. How can your "native culture" be truly yours if it was "forced" on you? How too can exposure to different cultures within the US be construed as "imposed" on you?
Re:Politial speech influenced 6 yrs old chid. (Score:4, Interesting)
How can your "native culture" be truly yours if it was "forced" on you? How too can exposure to different cultures within the US be construed as "imposed" on you?
I realize (in retrospect) that when I grew up I didn't really have a choice, which culture to accept, so my set of values is consistent with what was popular in USSR at the time of my childhood, so local culture and government didn't seem like they force on me anything I don't want in the first place. This is the primary reason why I did not feel oppressed there but do feel oppressed in US.
More importantly, Americans believe that they are "free" only because they live in the same country that imposes the same basic culture and ideology on everyone (usually slightly decorated with some crude ethnic/racial flavor but the same at the core). Nevertheless this is not actually freedom -- it would be freedom if they were just as comfortable if they did not share the same values, and my experience shows that a person with different background feels extremely uncomfortable and oppressed here.
Objectively, both USSR and US societies were/are very strict in values, beliefs and ideology imposed on their members -- there are "sacred" ideas that, if attacked effectively and in a public manner, would earn a person ostracism and persecution. It's less visible because it applies only to things that are public and effective, and both societies had also wildly different standards on what is "public" and what can be "effective".
Re:Politial speech influenced 6 yrs old chid. (Score:3, Interesting)
Americans believe that they are "free" only because they live in the same country that imposes the same basic culture and ideology on everyone (usually slightly decorated with some crude ethnic/racial flavor but the same at the core). Nevertheless this is not actually freedom
With respect, can I ask what culture it is that you're feeling is being imposed on you and/or all Americans? To be sure, I'm not at all claiming to know what it's like to have grown up or spent any time living anywhere other than the US (I just want to be sure I'm not misleading you). I'm also not at all trying to claim that the US is some Utopian dream of perfect tolerance and harmony. I do, however, feel that the US has quite a varied culture, which is one of the things that (in my opinion) makes our country both great and sometimes contentious. There are absolutely pockets of intolerance all over our country (try being anything other than Christian in the South for example), but to extend this idea to one that blankets the country as a whole is slightly disingenuous (even if it's unintentionally so).
Re:Politial speech influenced 6 yrs old chid. (Score:3, Insightful)
With respect, can I ask what culture it is that you're feeling is being imposed on you and/or all Americans?
Do you really expect a foreigner to describe you what he dislikes in your culture in a way that you would find acceptable?
Re:Politial speech influenced 6 yrs old chid. (Score:2)
Objectively, both USSR and US societies were/are very strict in values, beliefs and ideology imposed on their members -- there are "sacred" ideas that, if attacked effectively and in a public manner, would earn a person ostracism and persecution. It's less visible because it applies only to things that are public and effective, and both societies had also wildly different standards on what is "public" and what can be "effective".
It sounds like you need to do some more shopping around between subcultures. Maybe it's because I spent a lot of time in college towns or because I grew up in Northern California, but I'm used to seeing two things that contradict your claims.
1) People from radically different cultures who moved to the United States and feel they're more able to practice their own culture here than back in India, China, Indonesia, etc., because in their homeland they were part of an offshoot culture than was frowned upon, while in their new homes that's absolutely welcomed.
2) People from the United States who hold very different values from the prevailing national/regional/local views, who are quite happy with their freedom to be different. I've also lived places in the U.S. where that's not the case, but usually that's been my experience.
There's a lot of room here for vegans, people who hate television, people who are only interested in Chinese music, people who want to have no friends, people who never want to be alone, socialists, anarchists, conservatives, libertarians, Wiccans, atheists, and Scientologists. There are tons of problems here, just like anywhere else, but in much of the U.S. you'll find cultural acceptance and diversity like few other places on Earth.
I suspect I would have been pretty happy in the USSR, too. It's not so hard to make oneself feel comfortable as long as there's no active oppression going on.
Re:Politial speech influenced 6 yrs old chid. (Score:5, Interesting)
It sounds like you need to do some more shopping around between subcultures. Maybe it's because I spent a lot of time in college towns or because I grew up in Northern California, but I'm used to seeing two things that contradict your claims.
I am in Berkeley [, you insensitive clod!] That's probably the closest -- and yet way, way outside of what actually would be acceptable.
1) People from radically different cultures who moved to the United States and feel they're more able to practice their own culture here than back in India, China, Indonesia, etc., because in their homeland they were part of an offshoot culture than was frowned upon, while in their new homes that's absolutely welcomed.
Only if their culture is fringe at home, and is still fringe here -- except only at home they are taken seriously, so people don't bother to express direct hostility toward them in US. Those people who believe that they "practice their own culture" in US are deluding themselves -- their lives only exist in context of American society that follows rules and system of values that is specific to US. They can "practice their own culture" as a hobby or (and usually only) as a religious cult that no one cares about -- this is not "culture", this is thin veneer of a culture over their entirely American lives. Yes, that includes how Russian culture "exists" in US -- forgive me, I forgot to bring my knife, thick accent, bottle of vodka and two liters of sweat. I don't want this and would be insulted to reduce my cultural background to such a freak show.
2) People from the United States who hold very different values from the prevailing national/regional/local views, who are quite happy with their freedom to be different. I've also lived places in the U.S. where that's not the case, but usually that's been my experience.
American society is actually very much homogenized. Differences are superficial and mostly based on racial diversity, and racism that keeps people of the same race together, thus forming a "subculture" with no unique values. For example, if you look at Black/African American culture (that formed entirely over the history of US) it's clear that there are plenty of superficial differences but at its core it's exactly the same as culture of, say, white Protestants, except adapted to being discriminated against, and developed in relatively closed communities. For white American, especially one who adopted racial stereotype it looks "different" or even hostile, but most goals, values and ideas are exactly the same. Many other subcultures have the same fundamental nature, even if not based on ethnicity.
What bothers me most, American geek/nerd subculture, that I am supposed to be associated with, is still very close to mainstream, however mainstream treats it with such a ferocious hostility, I can never understand such a situation. For me American society looks like this Star Trek episode [startrek.com] -- groups that I can barely recognize as different treat each other as complete opposites of themselves, and they don't realize just how far I am from all of them.
There's a lot of room here for vegans, people who hate television, people who are only interested in Chinese music, people who want to have no friends, people who never want to be alone,
Vegans? Hate television? That's not what a culture is about.
socialists, anarchists, conservatives, libertarians,
There are no "socialists" in US. American "socialist" would be welcome in the second-from-the right party anywhere else in the world -- and it's usually only second from the right because first would be basically Nazi. In USSR Communists wouldn't recognize him as belonging to a related movement. Politics is one of the area where only a very narrow range of opinion is tolerated in serious public discourse. "Libert
Re:Politial speech influenced 6 yrs old chid. (Score:3, Informative)
I agree with you to some extent. There are simply so many little things that we take for granted that are what define our culture. See this page [zompist.com] for a long list. Here are some examples:
You seriously expect to be able to transact business, or deal with the government, without paying bribes.
You're used to a wide variety of choices for almost anything you buy.
The biggest meal of the day is in the evening.
You don't care very much what family someone comes from.
If you have an appointment, you'll mutter an excuse if you're five minutes late, and apologize profusely if it's ten minutes. An hour late is almost inexcusable.
If you're talking to someone, you get uncomfortable if they approach closer than about two feet.
About the only things you expect to bargain for are houses, cars, and antiques. Haggling is largely a matter of finding the hidden point that's the buyer's minimum.
Re:Politial speech influenced 6 yrs old chid. (Score:3, Informative)
You seriously expect to be able to transact business, or deal with the government, without paying bribes.
And in other cultures you do not have to "transact business" or "deal with the government" in any active manner just to survive.
You're used to a wide variety of choices for almost anything you buy.
...all those "choices" being inferior to the standards one would expect in other societies, thanks to governments pandering to businesses, monopolies, runaway cost-cutting and "creative" kinds of outsourcing.
The biggest meal of the day is in the evening.
...and this is why (plus the above as applied to food) obesity is both common and the most common reason for social ostracism.
You don't care very much what family someone comes from.
Instead you merely care how much money that family thrown at him/her.
If you have an appointment, you'll mutter an excuse if you're five minutes late, and apologize profusely if it's ten minutes. An hour late is almost inexcusable.
This is not acceptable in any culture. In US recently arrived foreigners are often late to their appointment because they don't have a car yet (something that in other countries is not strictly necessary to get anywhere).
If you're talking to someone, you get uncomfortable if they approach closer than about two feet.
This is the only thing that is actually valid in this list -- and only because Americans are trained to distrust each other and see a body of another human as some kind of abnormal, threatening or repulsive presence in their lives, while for others it's something ordinary, not significantly different from their own.
About the only things you expect to bargain for are houses, cars, and antiques. Haggling is largely a matter of finding the hidden point that's the buyer's minimum.
In USSR the only place one would be haggling is a farmers' market and maybe when buying a used car (from the previous owner). The idea of haggling for cars that happens in US is still something that I can't distinguish from outright scam, and I am not even going to explain what US real estate marker is.
Re:Politial speech influenced 6 yrs old chid. (Score:5, Interesting)
There may have been a brief period of McCarthyism, but objectively there were no American gulags.
First and foremost, GULAG HAS NO PLURAL. It makes very easy to recognize Americans who pretend to be Russians or whose propaganda writings are translated into Russian, by this error that any Russian would notice -- as "GULAG" is an abbreviation for "Department of [Penitentiary] Camps" in Russian. It also shows that most Americans not only are only familiar with USSR labor camps through one book by Solzhenitsyn, they also limited their knowledge of that book to its title.
Second, US definitely had prison camps of various kinds, most egregiously camps for Japanese Americans during WWII, however currently operating Guantanamo Bay camp and various outsourced torture programs are also notable. Conditions in many American prisons are actually worse than most of what GULAG prisoners experienced -- if given a choice, I would rather cut trees in Siberian forest surrounded by intimidating-looking armed guards than be raped or stabbed by homemade knives. US also has long history of political prisoners, likely politically motivated assassinations, plus things that not even Stalin dared to do such as genocide (shut up, Robert Conquest readers).
USSR also did not inflict on its population a tiny fraction of death and misery that was caused by black slavery in the South, wage slavery everywhere, shitty social programs and a kind of "health insurance" that, if implemented in USSR, would get Kremlin overrun by angry crowds.
Re:Politial speech influenced 6 yrs old chid. (Score:2)
Calm down, dude.
Re:Politial speech influenced 6 yrs old chid. (Score:2)
I'm pissed at US culture, media and every other thing imposed on my country and everywhere. I'd like to travel somewhere where all that McDonalds and other US culture isn't all around. I *dont* want them to be everywhere. The same thing with Google - they're using their company power for political arguing. Sad.
Re:Politial speech influenced 6 yrs old chid. (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Politial speech influenced 6 yrs old chid. (Score:4, Insightful)
By doing so, you would be denying others the freedom to choose to enjoy that culture for themselves. It's why we call it a "free society".
You are, of course, also free to cut yourself off from that culture by ignoring its manifestations. Don't eat in McDonalds. Don't shop in Wal-mart. Don't buy Hollywood movies.
Re:Politial speech influenced 6 yrs old chid. (Score:5, Insightful)
Putting it bluntly, tough shit. Obviously the people running YOUR country don't feel the same way, or there wouldn't BE a McDonalds and Starbucks on every corner. Where do you get off forcing YOUR views on all of YOUR other countrymen?
We do it here in the U.S. There are several small towns that just refuse to issue building permits to Walmart, McDonalds and the like. They want to preserve the "small town feel".
Hell, screw small towns. It is 2010 and Walmart is STILL trying to get permission to build a store in CHICAGO -- the 3rd largest city in the U.S.! Suburbs, yes. City, not yet.
I'm willing to bet your gov't isn't subsidizing McDonalds and American movies, etc. So the simple answer is DON'T SHOP THERE. Capitalism, in its basest form, works wonderfully. If you DON'T SHOP THERE then those stores will LOSE MONEY AND CLOSE. These mega corps close "under-performing" stores all the time.
"Imposed", ha! Help me out. Which country is it that sends in the secret police to put the gun to your head to watch American TV, American movies, buy American brands and eat at American fast-food stores? I'd like to see the tourist brochure.
Re:Politial speech influenced 6 yrs old chid. (Score:3, Insightful)
Again, no one is holding a gun to our head to "enjoy" entertainment. Health insurance maybe, but not entertainment.
Re:Politial speech influenced 6 yrs old chid. (Score:4, Insightful)
Want to get away from McDonalds? Try walking a little farther afield.
If you can't avoid McDonalds or Hollywood then it's your own damn laziness.
No one "imposes" McDonalds on anyone. Their success is simply a matter of
human nature and how people like cheap crap and are vulnerable to marketing.
If you want to whine that there is a McDonalds in your part of the planet
then bitch at your neighbors that have no taste.
Some people go clear across the planet to have a Big Mac. Others in the same
exact situation will have the deep fried spiders. If you are lame, you will
be lame wherever you go. There's no escaping yourself.
Clearly America doesn't have a monopoly on sheeple consumers.
Re:Politial speech influenced 6 yrs old chid. (Score:2)
How the fuck heavy is 200kg in lbs?
Re:Politial speech influenced 6 yrs old chid. (Score:2)
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=200kg+in+pounds [slashdot.org]?
Ironic, isn't it?
Re:Politial speech influenced 6 yrs old chid. (Score:2)
How the fuck heavy is 200kg in lbs? [lmgtfy.com]?
Ironic, isn't it?
Re:Politial speech influenced 6 yrs old chid. (Score:4, Informative)
Get the fuck out.
Personal Attack
Like the GP Alex Belits, I have also lived in Eastern Europe and Russia when my work required me to.
Anecdotal Evidence, Appeal to Authority
It's true that US is trying to get the culture and influence around in those countries and I do not like it. I think every country should be able to practice their own historical culture without fucking Americans affecting it.
Burden of Proof, Appeal to Spite, Questionable Cause, Confusing Cause and Effect, Appeal to Tradition
And I am from a country that has highly changed it's ways to US standards. It's bullshit, let me say that. Or is having 200kg women fed by McDonalds a good way?
Biased Sample, Hasty Generalization, Fallacy of Presupposition
Re:Politial speech influenced 6 yrs old chid. (Score:3, Insightful)
Your insistence on a posteriori knowledge is irrational, and wtbname handed you your rhetorical ass already.
Re:Politial speech influenced 6 yrs old chid. (Score:2)
Also after 22 years in USSR and 16 years in US, I can assure everyone that I feel more oppressed in US than I ever did in USSR -- if for no other reason then because US imposes on me a culture different from my own
That's not opression, that's culture shock. I feel the same way when I'm walking home from Felber's (a redneck bar in the ghetto), and dope dealers try to sell me their wares, speaking Ebonics and wearing their pants down past their underwear. Just getting older gives one culture shock; I am NOT used to the culture I live in, and I was born in this country.
What makes me feel oppressed is being labeled a criminal for engaging in activities that harm no one, even though technically I'm not a criminal because you're supposedly innocent until proven guilty. The cameras everywhere make me feel oppressed. It doesn't lessen the paranoia one tiny bit that I'm "innocent until proven guilty".
Re:Politial speech influenced 6 yrs old chid. (Score:2)
Those not traveling just worked hard and lived their life.
So, pretty much the same as everyone in the West, then?
Comment removed (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Politial speech influenced 6 yrs old chid. (Score:2)
Good on Sergey & Google. To those clods who will joke about how a six year old can be influenced let me just say I remember when the Berlin Wall was erected. I was six years old and although I don't remember the political details I vividly recall seeing a front page photo in the Detroit News that showed what Woodward Avenue (the main street in downtown Detroit) would look like if the Wall had been built right down the center. It scared the crap out of me then even without knowing why and it remains an image that has stayed with me. Of *course* Sergey was affected.
Indeed; I was only about 7 when it fell & I remember seeing it on the news & being very happy. Obviously at 6 years old, I had no idea of the significance of the falling of the wall, but I sure as hell was able to absorb the atmosphere here in the UK. Both the highs and lows would have been amplified on the other side of the iron curtain.
Re:Politial speech influenced 6 yrs old chid. (Score:4, Insightful)
I was around the same age when the wall fell, and I distinctly remember the scenes on TV of people scaling it, pulling it apart and so on.
I didn't really understand why the wall existed, what it was for, or even geographically at that age, where it was in relation to me. Despite that, I still have images in my memory of those scenes when it fell, because for some reason I too knew it was an important moment. This is despite the fact I was in the UK, a country where such an event had no noticable direct effect on me at that age.
I suspect it was even more prominent for Brin, because that sudden change, from living in the USSR, to living in America where suddenly things he probably wasn't allowed to do, places he'd never seen before, foods and products he never experienced in the USSR, and probably even the types of programs shown on TV that weren't shown in the USSR suddenly became commonplace. I agree with you, a kid is bound to notice such a drastic change in their life even at an age that young, and even if the reality of what that change was about doesn't bite until they get older.
Re:Politial speech influenced 6 yrs old chid. (Score:3, Insightful)
While I do applaud Google for finally realizing that promoting freedom (the real kind, not the jingoistic hoo-rah kind) is the only profitable path long-term, I must also remain cognizant of the fact that Google seems to have run down every other blind alley before finding the right one.
So now Sergey is "following his conscience" after considering childhood experiences, eh? Good. I hope that's true. It would've been better, though, had he done so from the outset.
As an aside, I've always wondered in Brin's family's case how a gifted mathematician just waltzes out of Soviet Russia in 1979, only to resurface in Maryland out of all the 50 states, and his wife with a US Government job, at that! Somehow, I doubt this is "just how it worked out". (Cue the Yakov Smirnov jokes in 3....2....1....)
So yeah, Sergey, Larry, and Dr. Strangelove could've considered not cooperating/collaborating with the Chinese a long time ago, and that would've been alright with me. Odd that it took him so many years to remember what living under an oppressive regime felt like. I didn't know money caused amnesia.
Re:Politial speech influenced 6 yrs old chid. (Score:5, Informative)
These events not only made an impression, they are among my most dramatic, and hence vivid, memories from that age. Whoever thinks little kids don't get oppression doesn't have a fucking clue.
Re:Politial speech influenced 6 yrs old chid. (Score:5, Interesting)
It was still USSR when I was in the kindergarten, and I do recall from my experience there that the correct answer to the question "Who is the person you should love most in the world?" is "Lenin", not "mom".
Is it oppression? You bet. Problem is, you don't know if you have nothing to compare it to.
My mother told me that she also really believed in all the crap they've fed them back in her pioner and Comsomol days. If anyone would have asked her if she'd want to leave USSR and move to US back then, she would consider the person downright insane - why would she ever want to live in a country with rampant racism and pervasive exploitation, when she can enjoy all the glorious achievements of socialism?
Re:Politial speech influenced 6 yrs old chid. (Score:2)
I was 5 years old and went to play with the black worker's kids while I was at a dormitory at a public boarding school. I was told in no uncertain terms that I should not be friends with them and was forbidden to go there. I'm ashamed that I was part of that. That went a long way to shape my view of the apartheid South Africa as oppressive and evil. Fortunately I got to learn of better in spite of media controls.
Re:Politial speech influenced 6 yrs old chid. (Score:4, Insightful)
"Political speech" didn't directly influence him aged six, but the country, culture and attitude a lack of it created apparently did. Moreover, nothing in his comment claims he understood it was influencing him at the time... but it's perfectly reasonable that as a grown man with a clearer understanding of both politics and civil liberties, he would think back to his childhood experiences, combine that with what he now knows of the political situation at the time, and come to conclusions regarding the reasons for his childhood experiences.
Re:Politial speech influenced 6 yrs old chid. (Score:5, Informative)
Ha!
Ha? At 6 I was already politically influenced during the Nicaraguan civil war of the 60's and 70's. Totalitarian systems, specially under Communism and Nazism knew the power of political indoctrination of kindergarten kids and first graders.
Another concrete example from my country was after the Sandinista take-over. A common tactic for politically-blessed kindergarten/first grade teachers of the time was to do the following every so often at the start of a class:
Teacher: Ok kids, do you believe in God?
Kids: Yeaahhhh!
Teacher: Do you want candy?
Kids: Yeaaaah!
Teacher: Why don't we pray God for a candy?
Kids would close eyes and pray for a candy
Teacher: Did God give you candy?
Kids: No.
Teacher: Why don't you ask me for candy?
Kids: Teacher, can we have candy????
At that point, the so-called teacher would proceed to give candy followed by an explanation that God was the creation of the oppressive classes, and how the revolution takes care of the proletariat, that they should report their parents if they were counter revolutionaries, that counter revolutionary are dogs and not people (yeah, they'd teach that to 5-6 year old kids), that the Americans were evil and that they would come to kill you if you don't help the revolution (at this point kids have their eyes open wide and you have to ask yourself what kind of animal would say such things to a little kid)... and shit like that... every fucking day of class...
Say "ha" as you please. You will neither understand the impact these things can have on 5-6 year old kids nor appreciate their ability to capture, understand and reason under such repressive regimes if you have never experienced it.
Re:Politial speech influenced 6 yrs old chid. (Score:2, Flamebait)
You will neither understand the impact these things can have on 5-6 year old kids nor appreciate their ability to capture, understand and reason under such repressive regimes if you have never experienced it.
Of course he can! He's read 1984! He read about Parsons' child reporting him for talking against the party in is sleep! He can trot out the line "1984 was a warning, not a manual!" and quote the script verbatim, which makes him a formidable political opponent!
</sarcasm>
Re:Politial speech influenced 6 yrs old chid. (Score:4, Insightful)
Except, of course, those things didn't happen in USSR since 50's.
By the way, "Americans don't have long lines in the grocery stores!" was a major propaganda point in late 80's when former Communist politicians tried to paint US as the model for the "new direction" of their country. A lot of people actually believed that US has no lines at the checkout -- the only kind of "line in the grocery store" one would find in Russia in 80's. Personally, when I arrived in US, I was *SHOCKED* to see that in this particular aspect US and USSR had exactly the same kind of parity one would expect in nuclear weapons.
Re:Good on Google (Score:5, Insightful)
It's nice to see a company take an ethical stand and stick to it.
... and then turn their ethics around 180 degrees after getting hacked and stick with that. For a while, anyway.
For the moment the compass needle is pointing the right way, so I guess we should approve of that.
Re:Good on Google (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:How much free speech do you need at aged 6? (Score:3, Funny)
I think you mean Comrade in the Bubushka!
Re:How much free speech do you need at aged 6? (Score:3, Interesting)
Must have left an real impression having the Cat in the Hat censored
How much free speech do you need at age 6? How about being free of saying that your parents are Jewish, or that your parents are, say novelists or scientists or whatever who happen to be censored by the party without having your teacher telling you to shut up (at best) or sending you into the corner because your parents are traitor, counter revolutionary, dogs or some other shit while all the other kids laugh at you (at worst)?
Seriously man. That is a really stupid question.
Re:How much free speech do you need at aged 6? (Score:2)
How much free speech do you need at age 6? How about being free of saying that your parents are Jewish, or that your parents are, say novelists or scientists or whatever who happen to be censored by the party without having your teacher telling you to shut up (at best) or sending you into the corner because your parents are traitor, counter revolutionary, dogs or some other shit while all the other kids laugh at you (at worst)?
Seriously man. That is a really stupid question.
Those things wouldn't be censored in USSR.
One would have to to try to publish something in the range between "Capitalism is good" and "Communists eat babies" to actually notice that there is actually a censor somewhere. Of course, some people did just that, but none of them were six years old.
Re:How much free speech do you need at aged 6? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:How much free speech do you need at aged 6? (Score:2, Funny)
Under the Soviet bloc, you didn't become an academic unless you supported and abetted the government. It's likely that Brin's parents were part of that totalitarianism, that they enjoyed favoured status by reporting dissidents etc.
Re:How much free speech do you need at aged 6? (Score:4, Insightful)
Under the Soviet bloc, you didn't become an academic unless you supported and abetted the government. It's likely that Brin's parents were part of that totalitarianism, that they enjoyed favoured status by reporting dissidents etc.
This is pure bullshit, sorry, as evidenced by the fact that many dissidents were academics themselves.
You didn't need to toe the party line any more active than your average citizen to get into academia.
Re:A five year old. (Score:2)
Mr. Brin lived in the Soviet Union until he was nearly 6 years old, and he said the experience of living under a totalitarian system that censored political speech influenced his thinking — and Google’s policy.
So, he's saying a five year old understands the political system he's living under and its ramifications? A 5 year old?
I'd like to know what about the system made its mark on ..a five year old.
When I was five the only thing I was concerned about was getting home from school and playing.
Did you live in the Soviet Union? Ever lived in a place like that?
Re:A five year old. (Score:5, Insightful)
For a children it is about living in fear, not about politics. You do not understand this because you have always lived in a protected society, and your parents were never in fear for their lives, so they raised you accordingly. It is hard to relate unless you have lived through something similar.
I grew up under a military dictatorship when a kid, and I still remember my parents explaining what a curfew was to me when I was 3 or 4 years old, and me not been able to sleep at night because hearing shooting, bombs going out, and people yelling on the street. To this day, I am afraid of the police and to publicly express my political opinions. I even though 10 times before posting this under my name and not as AC.
Sergei's experience may not have been as bad, but a 5 year old understands fear and censorship, and believe me, once you've been there, you deal with it all your life. Good for him for standing up.
Re:A five year old. (Score:5, Insightful)
I remember Martin Luther King's assassination, although granted I as *only* seven. I was walking down the street with my mom, and I read a hand lettered sign tacked to a telephone pole calling for revenge against white people. My mom explained that when something bad happens, somebody is bound to get mad and make things worse for everyone.
It made a big impression on me, and I certainly recalled that moment three decades later when I turned on my radio on the morning of September 11, 2001.
Re:Moscow State University (Score:3, Insightful)
Your post isn't interesting or insightful. It's simply crap.
Russia is a hellhole. There is no law at all beyond what you can get away with through bribes and connections. There is state-sponsored xenophobia, racism, and antisemitism... and last I remember the living conditions were about equivalent to the US in the 1940s... at the latest.
That's the way it's been for centuries, and it's unlikely to change now.
Re:Moscow State University (Score:2)
Stereotypes. I was nearly shot at Southern Washington D.C., while being there as a tourist. But nothing even remotely like this happened to me in Russia.
Does it mean that the USA is a bad dangerous place? Of course, not. It is a great interesting country.
If you happened to find yourself in a bad condition while in Russia does not mean that all people there live in a bad condition.
There are people who live well and happily in Russia and there are people who find themselves on the street begging in the USA. And vice-versa.
Re:Moscow State University (Score:2)
I've met it in this incredible book by by Dr. Clayton E. Tucker-Ladd "Psychological Self-Help" http://www.psychologicalselfhelp.org/ [psychologi...lfhelp.org] , which is available on-line.
This book at one point probably saved my life.
Re:Moscow State University (Score:2)
I wrote that the USSR was not a nice place and why. But the fact that his parents could get University education for free in the Moscow State University speaks for itself. And that is they could find themselves well employed in the USA and give good education to Sergey.
In the USA they would not be even allowed to enter Yale university for 5 minutes for free.
I've met such people before. During USSR time they were attacking the Terrible Capitalism, and when it became profitable, they've just changed colors, and flatter the New Masters.
Re:Totalitarianism is not always bad (Score:2)
Unfortunately for Google, totalitarian systems are very effective under some circumstances. For example, totalitarianism proved to be the most effective system during large-scaled wars and other dire conditions. Today's growth of Chinese GDP proves that it is more effective in current economical situation than either US or EU.
Don't forget, during the last twenty centuries, China had the largest economy on Earth for 18 centuries, and it always was totalitarian. Like it or not, it will soon regain its position as the largest economy on the planet. So, under the circumstances, it is Google who needs China to stay relevant in future, not vice-versa.
effective != good
did you see the latest "alice in wonderland"? (Score:2)
mid1800s high society england is the setting:
at the end of the movie, alice talks about extending her dad's business empire away from sumatra and borneo, and into china, via hong kong. it's all presented as wonderful creative striking and reaffirming thinking
and then she gets on a sailing frigate, with a big smile on her face... to go humiliate and exploit china, in the era of the opium wars
wtf?!
and this is a 2010s movie, not a 1930s one!
britain basically committed pharmacological warfare on china by force importing and force addicting chinese to heroin. remember, alice in wonderland is pretty much a drug trip (although more lsd than heroin really)
i just wonder how this CURRENT (#1 for weeks in the west) movie is seen in china: that the west is so blissfully unaware of how humiliating this experience was that they present it, today, in their most visible top notch cinema, as a glorious, shameless adventure
if i were chinese, my blood would boil, as if this was yesterday!
you don't have to wallow in history, but you have to present it responsibly, if you do touch upon it. and celebrating british imperialism, as a sort of self-empowerment and self-affirming assertiveness, is NOT what you want to do, especially when it glosses over real life horrible abuses, against a current world power with a historical chip on its shoulder over exactly the same historical episode
stupid
it just shows the chinese that the west NEEDS a kick in the groin over this sort of historical blindness
show some humility, tact, and historical awareness, stupid hollywood