China Criticizes Google's "US Ties" 280
krou writes "State-run news agency Xinhua has attacked what it calls Google's 'intricate ties with the US government' amongst its high level officials, claiming that it's 'an open secret that some security experts in the Pentagon are from Google.' They have also accused the company of trying to change Chinese society by imposing American values on it. Xinhua said that 'One company's ambition to change China's internet rules will only prove to be ridiculous.' Google has denied the claims. Google spokeswoman Jessica Powell said that 'The decision to review our business in China was entirely Google's and Google's alone.'"
Well, yeah. (Score:2, Insightful)
Of course Google is trying to impose "American Values" on China. As it stands, they can't gain enough power to control things there. If China becomes more like America, then Google (and other companies) will have a bigger say in the government, and will be able to make more money.
Is it a surprise to anyone that that's what they're trying to do?
4 Months ago... (Score:3, Insightful)
At least thats how it seems. Can't please everyone so its better to do what feels right for you (for most companies what feels right seems to be what is most profitable).
Do we have to hear about every piece of propaganda (Score:4, Insightful)
???
If I wanted to read chinese propagada, I would go to the source:
http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/ [peopledaily.com.cn]
Hello, China, reality calling (Score:5, Insightful)
China is naive (Score:5, Insightful)
Why is this on Slashdot? (Score:2, Insightful)
So... A government controlled news entity IN CHINA is reporting dirt about google to the Chinese people. Why the heck is this news?
This is so incredibly saddening and angering, but (Score:3, Insightful)
People in power do whatever they want. It usually works. On the rare occasion it doesn't, it makes the history books.
One company's ambition (Score:5, Insightful)
It is just one company, right? In theory they shouldn't even be taking notice...
If they had actually expected to come out fully unscathed from this, they would have not even blinked.
China's censorship system had worked so far only because the Chinese always had options/alternatives when blocked from sites containing "dangerous ideas". The Chinese public simply accepted the government explanation. But Google, as the world's leading search engine, is something that is pretty much an inherent part of internet. Blocking a valuable internet resource requires much more rationalization, which is exactly what has the Chinese government sweating. It will be much harder to sell to the internet-using Chinese public. As such, this actually can lead to a relaxing of censorship in China. If not, it will lead to a realization on the part of Chinese public as to how they are actually visibly suffering by tolerating a non-democratic fascist state. Both are the first baby steps on the road to self-determination and freedom for the people in China.
Sadly, the said Chinese government is banking on having an alternative in competing search engines such as that of Microsoft. If Microsoft fails to follow Google's example, it will now actually be actively working to keep the seeds of democracy out of China.
Not that Microsoft, would be interested in anything apart from its profit line, considering it doesn't really believes in any kind of business ethics.
Re:Let's not forget (Score:5, Insightful)
hate them, but there's some truth (Score:3, Insightful)
Yes, we all love to hate the chinese. But there's some truth in there. The US is aggressively exporting its values and believes to the entire world, and it isn't asking if anyone wants it. Hollywood is the biggest propaganda machine ever, far more subtle and effective than any Nazi or Soviet Russian government efforts. And yes, Google is part of a culture as much as it is a company, and is bringing that culture to the world.
Most of the world is eating it up. A lot of people welcome it. Few of them made a conscious decision among alternatives on the matter of culture and spirit.
I'm not debating if the US culture is "good" or "bad" here, just stating the fact that the amount of culture that is in the american way of doing business is seldom reflected.
I feel lucky to be born in the USA (Score:5, Insightful)
What's happens to US citizens when they criticize the US government? What happens to Chinese citizens when they criticize the current government of China?
An honest answer to this test should quiet the post we will see here today. Somebody is going to apologize for the atrocities of the Chinese government by saying that the US government is no better. I can criticize both the US government and the Chinese government. I don't fear any reprisal from the US government for that criticism. Chinese citizens can have their lives taken away or be imprisoned for little more than a charge of 'creating instability'.
Re:Well, yeah. (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes, obviously. It can't possibly have anything to do with Google's value coming from allowing people access to information and Chinese government's power coming from denying people access to information. Clearly, this is not about Chinese government wanting to keep its Ministry of Truth running and Google being a threat to that, but instead it's about Google trying to control Chinese government.
I guess every puppetmaster's worst nightmare is for the strings to get cut...
Re:hate them, but there's some truth (Score:3, Insightful)
If US does the right thing, even for selfish motives, how does that make the said "right thing" to be wrong?
Since when did the right to self-determination, freedom of expression and thought, freedom to not be oppressed by a fascist state, become wrong?
Your argument is like saying "Oh my god, that guy who pushed that child out of the way of a speeding car, is reputed to be a bully. That child should not have been saved by him! How can you guys accept this?".
Notice the flaw in such an argument?
Re:Let's not forget (Score:5, Insightful)
I disagree with that POV. The internet is its own society which is free from cultural and geological borders. That's the power of the Internet. The fact that EVERYONE is equal, irregardless of their location, political beliefs, language, religion, etc, etc, etc makes it it's own society. When a country tries to limit or control the internet, it is either because they don't understand it, or they fear it. This is especially true in cultures of control such as China and Iran. They are afraid of the internet, because it gives people access to a truly free society. The failure here is that almost no government believes that the Internet is a sovereign society.
Is this why US law like DMCA is imposed to me even while I don't live in US? Google removes results based on DMCA notices on all of their sites, not just google.com.
China tries to control it's own Internet. USA tries to control the whole Internet. Which one is worse?
Re:I feel lucky to be born in the USA (Score:3, Insightful)
That is a bit of a stretch, considering that critics of US foreign policy have found themselves unable to board airplanes. Sure, it is not as bad as what happens in China, but let's not act like the US is all roses and that criticism of the government goes unpunished. Only a few years ago, my friends were imprisoned for peacefully protesting the RNC in New York. Like I said, not as bad as China, but certainly nothing close to ideal...
Re:Let's not forget (Score:5, Insightful)
Isn't Xinhua correct in this though? There's no lies - Google tried to change Chinese society and bring American values in it, just like is done in Iraq but only with military.
This is nothing new, the same has been done with Hollywood and other mass culture for long time. Just play Civilization - you can spread your culture and slowly your enemies cities will want to join you.
China has it backward (Score:3, Insightful)
China owns the playing field and sets the rules for that playing field. Google has attempted to play in China's playground but cannot survive within the constraint of its rules. It has exhausted all efforts to make adjustments and compromises but China will have none of it. Google has two options -- change the way it does business or leave. These options are rather similar to China's options -- allow changes in the way it deals with business or make them leave. It doesn't have to be an emotionally or politically charged problem at all.
Google's options are limited. Leaving is clearly the last resort and it seems that they are taking that one. China is keeping its playground, but Google is taking the ball back home.
Re:Can't be (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Good grief! (Score:4, Insightful)
Xinhua is state run, so accusing a google of being a puppet of the government is kind of silly. Anyways, Chinese propaganda used to be a lot like the USSR's Pravda or KNCA [kcna.co.jp] today, but it's not quite that extreme anymore. That probably makes it more effective. I mean, don't people begin to catch on after 50 years of weekly "the west will experience nuclear armageddon at our hands" rants?
"The matchless fighting spirit of the leader, who continued the forced march of high intensity to vibrant hard-fought fields for an upsurge throughout the year, burning his heart with noble love of his country and fellow people, gave free rein to the mental strength of all the service personnel and people and worked world-startling miracles across the country." -- KCNA, http://www.kcna.co.jp/item/2010/201001/news01/20100101-08ee.html [kcna.co.jp]
Re:Let's not forget (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Let's not forget (Score:0, Insightful)
USA tries to control the whole Internet.
Well, we did fkn build it. If you don't like it, you can bring your own fkn ball next game.
Re:Let's not forget (Score:5, Insightful)
Google isn't the internet. Google is a US company, and it's subject to US laws. Nobody is stopping US citizens from visiting websites run by non-US companies, which would not be subject to US laws. In China, however, you would simply be prevented from viewing any site that was not controlled (explicitly, by law, or by some other agreement) by the Chinese government.
The US is trying to control the world through treaties and trade agreements, not by web censorship.
Re:Let's not forget (Score:5, Insightful)
The internet is its own society which is free from cultural and geological borders.
This video [youtube.com] contains content from Sony Pictures, who has blocked it in your country on copyright grounds.
WAS free. Past tense. And prepare for ACTA, this is only getting worse.
Re:Let's not forget (Score:5, Insightful)
If you think the US has never taken down a foreign website you are sadly mistaken.
Re:Let's not forget (Score:4, Insightful)
You do realize that, although you're not in the US, Google does. If you don't want to be restricted by US laws, maybe you shouldn't use the services of a North-American company...
Re:Let's not forget (Score:2, Insightful)
that while some Internet users in certain Western countries may see the Internet as something which exists independently of society and is merely a medium through which two individuals may communicate, from the Chinese POV it is a part of society and therefore allowed to be controlled.
To be totally honest, I agree with the Chinese POV, since $People \in Society$ and $Internetusers \subset Society$.
If you are agreeing with Chinese POV, why are you posting as AC? Don't you want to be monitored and controlled and being praised to be patriotic? The simple fact is that everyone online in China are subject to searches and lack of privacy. Any government or any special interest groups outside of the government with enough favors with the government can find you and harrass you. You have no protection when attempting to raise a different voice.
The fact that you are posting as AC tells me you either don't understand what you are saying, or you are a hypocrite who don't practice nor believe what you just said.
Re:Let's not forget (Score:1, Insightful)
Is this why US law like DMCA is imposed to me even while I don't live in US? Google removes results based on DMCA notices on all of their sites, not just google.com.
China tries to control it's own Internet. USA tries to control the whole Internet. Which one is worse?
Let me point out one thing: It ain't the US that tries to control the internet but rather the businesses that are using US law. Add in the fact that Google is a US company, based in the US and subject to US law and you can understand why Google has to be careful when they are issued a DMCA notice. If you don't like it, no one is making you use Google.
Re:Let's not forget (Score:3, Insightful)
Mod this up!
Despite the internet being community without boundaries, each individual is still part of a physical, bounded community, and is thus still subject to the physical community's rules, despite what many people seem to think.
Not even the point... (Score:3, Insightful)
I watched an interesting show on how Google operates and their conclusion was that Google's business is based on "Trust". Unlike many organizations, Google is in business because we trust that they will work and operate to keep our data as safe as they can. It is something that a vast majority of the public including myself takes for granted because so far they haven't messed up badly. According to Google, China was caught hacking their systems, stealing IP and personal user data. If this keeps going on the way it does, then Google can't keep the trust of the public and it might mean the downfall of their company. (I can't use Google because China keeps hacking in and stealing my data.)
Originally Google went into China because when you really think about it, filtering users from content does not betray this idea of "Trust". Your data is still safe but China stepped over the line when they started hacking into Google.
The best way for Google to leave China which is likely what they are now planning to do is to drop the filtering. This generates good will with the remaining users. China is correct in that Google is pushing Western ideals however in many ways this is China's fault to begin with. If China hadn't hacked Google to begin with this whole mess would not have started.
I personally don't see a huge problem with China filtering searches. It's their own country and their own rules. Admittedly this goes against freedom of speech (a democratic idea) but China's pretty far from a democracy. Hopefully someday, their public will realize that it is something valuable enough to fight for but for now it doesn't seem to be the case. However hacking your business partner is far from acceptable.
Re:Well, yeah. (Score:2, Insightful)
Yes, obviously. It can't possibly have anything to do with Google's value coming from allowing people access to information and Chinese government's power coming from denying people access to information.
Yes, Google's value comes from allowing people access to information. And their revenue comes from the ads they show. And folks buy ads on Google because of the eyes they bring. And Google's got lots of eyes on its page because of its value.
So, ultimately, allowing people access to information earns Google money.
You can talk about doing no evil and information wanting to be free and whatever else... But, as a publicly traded company, Google's primary interest is making money. So of course they're interested in changing Chinese culture, as much as possible, to earn themselves more money.
We here in the West think that free and open access to information is a good thing, so we view Google's actions as altruistic to a certain degree. In China, free and open access to information is viewed as dangerous, so they view Google's actions as nothing more than an attempt to change their culture purely to make money.
Clearly, this is not about Chinese government wanting to keep its Ministry of Truth running and Google being a threat to that, but instead it's about Google trying to control Chinese government.
I guess every puppetmaster's worst nightmare is for the strings to get cut...
Since when does Google, or the United States, get to decide how China is governed?
Granted, from my standpoint, things look pretty oppressive over there. I'm not just talking about their information security policies either... There's plenty of human rights issues. I sure as hell wouldn't want to live there.
But isn't it up to the Chinese people to decide how they want to be governed?
Yes, to my eyes over here in the West, they look like they're being oppressed. But how do the folks in China feel? Are they unhappy enough to actually rebel against the government and create something new?
But the government has all the tanks and guns and stuff! Surely any attempt at revolution would just fail utterly, right? We ought to roll in there with our tanks and guns and put in a shiny new democracy, right?
Re:Let's not forget (Score:3, Insightful)
China.
Re:I feel lucky to be born in the USA (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:hate them, but there's some truth (Score:4, Insightful)
Since when did the right to self-determination, freedom of expression and thought, freedom to not be oppressed by a fascist state, become wrong?
Huh? Those aren't exclusively US values, buddy. Though it's amusingly very American to claim ownership of those ideas...
No, "American culture" is generally considered fun stuff like: Consumerism. Corporatism. Obsession with money and violence. Fear of sex and drugs.
You know, the real America, not the fictious one that conservatives and libertarians wished existed, but actually doesn't.
Re:Let's not forget (Score:4, Insightful)
Is this why US law like DMCA is imposed to me even while I don't live in US? Google removes results based on DMCA notices on all of their sites, not just google.com.
China tries to control it's own Internet. USA tries to control the whole Internet. Which one is worse?
So build your own search engine, open results entirely, and put it out for any to use. No one is stopping you. Well, unless you are in China.
Re:Can't be (Score:3, Insightful)
If you have a 401K, stocks, or any other investment account then you might want to reread your statement with "me" instead of "them". The fact is most middle-class Americans have investments in these mega-corporations and profit from their "greed".
I would propose that in fact, it is this ever more difficult quest to show stock-holder gains that lead to these things that you hate so much. However if a company doesn't do this things, then the stockholders sue saying that the CEO's were not doing their best to maximize profits.
Re:Can't be (Score:3, Insightful)
Imposing American values on China? (Score:4, Insightful)
You mean like free trade?
The Chinese government *wants* American values, but cafeteria style. They want free exchange of information so long as it is information leaving America and entering China. They don't want information leaving China or worse yet circulating within China. The Chinese government wants America to be open and pursue classical liberal trade policy while it remains closed and pursues mercantilist policies. It wants America to be true to its respect of sovereign nations, but to forget about every individual's sovereignty over his own opinions. It demands the American not interfere in free markets while the Peoples Liberation Army operates businesses and party official parlay their connections into business wealth.
China has rejected the extreme form of socialism it was founded on, but it has not adopted the enlightened capitalism of Europe and America. It has recreatd the caricature of American capitalism portrayed in its own propaganda: a system in which corrupt wealthy men pull the strings of corrupt government.
It's no wonder they don't want American values: those values empower the working class.
Re:Can't be (Score:5, Insightful)
Most people do. Here is what they see about financial holdings in the US:
Top 1% owns 43%
Next 19% owns 50%
Bottom 80% owns 7%
Most people see no "me" in those statements.
> However if a company doesn't do this things, then the stockholders sue saying that the CEO's were not doing their best to maximize profits.
A situation which could be remedied by changes to some laws. More importantly would be getting Wall Street off companies backs so they can plan more than 3 months out. The latter has less to do maximizing corporate profits than the Street's own interests, profits, and bonuses.
Re:Well, yeah. (Score:3, Insightful)
Um, no. They're undermining Chinese dictatorship's ability to keep its people in the dark. It has nothing to do with culture and everything to do with someone being scared of losing his power.
Is viewed as dangerous by whom? The regular Chinese? I doubt that, and even if it was, why should I listen to someone who's opinion is based on the lies he's been told? I shouldn't, I should show that poor bastard the truth, thus setting him free to form opinions based on actual facts rather than party propaganda.
Or is it the Chinese government which views free access to information dangerous? Now why is that? Do they perhaps think that the regular Chinese - indeed, the very Chinese culture - would condemn them if they knew the truth of their activities?
I couldn't agree more. It's truly a pity that the Chinese government disagrees, and makes panicked accusations against Google for attempting to give them this power.
Why no, the Chinese people know that they are citizens of the most glorious, free and prosperous nation on Earth, just like North Koreans are and Soviet citizens were! Any information saying anything else is dangerous, contagious propaganda from eeeeevil Western corporations - but thankfully the Chinese officials are always ready to prevent their citizens from seeing such vile lies and to re-educate anyone who has!
No, I say let the Chinese people free access to information, at which point they can decide if their current leaders are ruling in accordance to the values of Chinese people and culture. Based on said leaders reaction, I'd guess the answer would be a Big No.
Re:Let's not forget (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:I feel lucky to be born in the USA (Score:4, Insightful)
Like I said, not as bad as China, but certainly nothing close to ideal...
That's a straw man. Where did OP claim the US was a utopia?
Re:Let's not forget (Score:3, Insightful)
other people have morals different from yours in which copyright (and enforcing it) is immoral
What? Who in the world believes that copyrighting one's own work is immoral? I know people who think the laws favor copyright holders too much, but I've never met someone who thinks copyright laws are inherently "immoral".
What morality would disallow the creator of an original creation from controlling how that creation is distributed? Would you attempt to enforce such a principle by demanding that artists immediately publish everything they create without compensation? And even if you believe that it is in the best interest of "the people" that original content is in the public domain at the time of its creation, that is a matter of political-economy, not morals. But if you have some compelling moral argument against copyright protection - in principle, not in practice - then I'd be happy to hear it.
The US has no interest in stopping you from publishing whatever you want. Go ahead and give it away if that's where your moral compass points you. All the US wants is to do is enforce it's copyright laws as they apply to content produced by its citizens. If other nations want to take that same approach (and most do), then that's their choice. If you don't want any content protected under copyright, then you're unaffected. If you want it, then you have to pay for it. Its that simple. Or do you believe that everyone should be able to listen to a U2 record for free?
blocking anti-social speech is moral
Well first thing I would ask is: What is anti-social speech? And more importantly, who defines it? If a govt wants to silence opposition to its policies, is anyone who speaks out "anti-social"? Or are you talking about child-porn? Because if you're talking about child-porn or cyber-bullying or whatever, then you're talking about crimes among individuals. But if you're talking about free speech issues like petitions or twittering about rallies, then you're not talking about "anti-social" speech, you're talking about political speech. And I think it has been proven over and over again that the dangers of allowing governments to suppress speech of any kind far outweighs the advantages to the society it is trying to "protect".
In China, the govt has put in place an enormously powerful system of censorship to ostensibly control "anti-social" speech, but is in fact primarily a tool for controlling political speech. People can't see child porn very easily, but they also can't even see a picture of "tank man" (the guy who stood in front of a column of tanks in Tienanmen Sq). What is "anti-social" about political protest? Isn't that how the PRC was founded? They fought a war with the existing govt and won. Now they don't want the same thing to happen to them. China wants to enforce it's totalitarian system to protect those in power who know that if people are allowed to read and discuss anything they want, they would be thrown out on their asses. If you don't want to be censored, well...you're out of luck.
What particular moral view do you claim the US is imposing upon you by asking you to pay for something that it's citizens are trying to sell?
Re:I feel lucky to be born in the USA (Score:3, Insightful)