eBay Urges Rethink On EU Plan's "Brick and Mortar" Vendor Requirement 139
mernil writes with this snippet from Reuters: "According to a draft regulation drawn up by the European Commission and seen by Reuters, suppliers may be allowed to require that distributors have a 'brick-and-mortar' shop before they can sell online. The proposed rules would replace existing guidelines exempting companies from strict EU competition rules under certain circumstances. Those rules expire at the end of May."
No words (Score:5, Insightful)
Living in a EU country and while lately I've been happy with EU's decisions, this is just bullshit. Not just because of eBay, but because there are several online stores in my country too that only have a website and warehouse. This includes the online stores that sell at lower price than you can find in stores and specialized stores like funny items and hot spices, hot sauces and specialized stores that import oversears and sell here.
Some of the items you can't just on normal stores. This is bullshit.
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I can't imagine what they want that provision for, unless, somehow it makes collecting taxes easier. Then it's just plain laziness.
If its pressure from brick and mortar stores, then it's unfair competition. Any insights as to this backward reasoning?
Don't let the States hear about this (Score:3, Insightful)
People have been ducking sales tax in the US by buying online because you generally have to have a physical presence in a state to be required to remit sales tax. I say people, and not businesses/web vendors, since most states have a "use tax" which applies to anything purchased out of state and used within the state, and very few people ever pay the use tax since there is no reporting.
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Exactly, and you have to remember that every individual country in the in the EU is still, well, their own country. They have great interest in looking after taxes and different languages create even more problems, and not even starting on that international money transfers are even easier to spot for taxing agencies. I really don't think it's about taxes - USA with its states could be so, but EU really is completely different system.
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You can avoid it if you buy low-value things from outside the EU, e.g. from play.com, which is based in Jersey.
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Every state has their own sales tax. Counties can have their own tacked onto that. Cities can add their own on top of THAT.
Then there are special rates for certain items like vehicles, some items are non-taxable, some are taxable after $X...
Yep, sure is simple as 1+1.
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Then there are special rates for certain items like vehicles, some items are non-taxable, some are taxable after $X...
Other than some items being non-taxable (only food that I've ever heard of), show me proof of the others, because I've never heard of such a thing.
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From: http://www.nyc.gov/html/dof/html/business/business_tax_nys_sales.shtml [nyc.gov]
City sales tax is imposed on the purchase of clothing and footwear costing $110 or more per item or pair as of August 1, 2009.
And not precisely what I said about vehicle purchase, but vehicle related: "On Item 10 above, the City imposes a 6 percent tax and an additional 8 percent surtax (on parking, garaging, or storing motor vehicles in Manhattan)."
I imagine you can find more on your own, using such Google terms as " Vehicle Sales
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Indiana has a state, county and city tax. And we have an innkeepers tax which screws our visitors who stay at hotels/motels. Stay OUT of this grubby little town and you'll be better off.
http://www.in.gov/dor/index.htm [in.gov]
Marion County Innkeepers' Tax -- Effective Sept. 1, 2009, the Marion County Innkeepers' Tax, which includes the city of Indianapolis, will increase from 9 percent to 10 percent for the rental of accommodations provided for less than 30 days in Marion County.
7% sales and 1% or 2% 'beverage' tax.
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People have been ducking sales tax in the US by buying online because you generally have to have a physical presence in a state to be required to remit sales tax. I say people, and not businesses/web vendors, since most states have a "use tax" which applies to anything purchased out of state and used within the state, and very few people ever pay the use tax since there is no reporting.
Bullshit. Flat out bullshit. If I buy something at a brick and mortar store, yes, sales tax should apply because infrastructure is used (local roads, fire, police, etc) for the store. But if I buy something online, sales tax *shouldn't* apply if that infrastructure isn't used (interstate roads are paid by tolls or fuel taxes, not sales taxes). If sales tax means stores can't compete, so be it.
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Sales tax is still paid anyway on infrastructure used. The shipping company is (presumably) charging sales tax on the shipping price to the company sending it.
And since they have a presence in each state, they will pay the appropriate tax rate to cover whatever their share of the state infrastructure costs are.
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So why should people living in the same state as the warehouse pay sales tax on their purchase? (I believe this is what happens.)
Also, you maybe covered roads (ignoring that you don't live on an interstate etc), but you didn't cover fire, police, or any of the other things sales tax pays for.
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unless you are licensing something purely digital, that's not really true.
If you are buying a physical 'good', presumably it still actually needs to be transported to where you physically are.
I supposed if they have a large enough trebuchet, they could get around using roads...
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People have been ducking sales tax in the US by buying online because you generally have to have a physical presence in a state to be required to remit sales tax. I say people, and not businesses/web vendors, since most states have a "use tax" which applies to anything purchased out of state
I think in most states even regular people are required to declare what they buy online and pay the use tax. It's that way in the state in which I live but no one does it. We had a 1% sales tax increase recently because people haven't been buying as much due to the recession but hey I'm sure when things do pick back up they will repeal that increase just like they did with income tax way back in the day... O right, that never happened.. I think the government has a tumor and we need some chemo to shrink it.
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Sort of like how they instituted a special tax on alcohol here in Pennsylvania to help Johnstown after their big flood... about a hundred years ago. It's now up to 18% from I think 7% initially, and going into a general fund now as opposed to helping the region.
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So far, it's like that on purpose. Although several states are pushing for "net" tax on purchases.
I think the time will come to choose between state tax and income tax. Provision was made long ago for a weak Federal government living off tariffs on imports. Not only would that make for a better U.S.,a return to constitutional values, but I think the world would more appreciate our role, minding our own business within our borders.
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We have that little annoying thing here called "The Freedom of Speach
We also have this really cool thing called spelling.
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We still have that?
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I'll roughly quote an advert I've seen a lot on London Underground trains recently:
"Stroll into the plush interior of the most expensive high-street audio shop. Let the smartly dressed assistant demonstrate the beauty of the latest surround sound system.
Then but it online from ____" (I can't remember the company.)
The provision is meant to protect high-street shops being beaten on price by online-only retailers.
Note that it's only a draft anyway, so it'll probably be changed.
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I see.
When dinosaurs couldn't adapt,they at least had the common courtesy to fossilize while more fit beasts took care of earths maintenance. Only displacing the inevitable for a short bit. Maybe they will wise up and put up websites. No need to drag down the whole EU for one street of merchants. Well, perhaps in other cities as well.
(cue Dylans "Times, They are a Changin')
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Makes it easier for buyers to go to a real place when the appl^h^h^h^shit-hardware they just bought* turns out to be failing for no apparent reason. We've had WAY too many cases in Europe where buyers have been left high-n-dry by internet-only "stores".
*: Yeah, my USB-Ethernet just turned out be non-functional - yay, now to track down official representatives in Belgium.
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That's the risk you take when you buy online. If you want accountability and returnability, buy from a local B&M store, or from a big online place like Amazon.com. Small places are obviously a bigger risk.
However, a store being a local B&M retailer, and even a giant national chain, is no guarantee that you'll be able to return a failed item. Just look at Best Buy; they're famous for horrendous return policies and jacking people. I bought a laptop there several years ago which failed, and they tr
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In later years, online-only stores have been neglecting these, and customers have had problems tracking down the owners for various reasons. Stores have rejected packages sent back, not responded to phone-calls etc. A physical store would(!) make it harder for the store to hide from customers were stupid enough to buy LaCi^H^H^H^Hshit-equipment.
That's only if the vendor is actually IN Denmark, however. If the vendor is in some other country, it seems like these laws wouldn't apply, and the customers are SO
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a big wharehouse and a few clerks, oh soory sir yes the unmade up road is on our to fix list and yes Famer Jones should realy have fixed that gate but i'me shure those dents from that champaion bull will buff right out.
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it says may be allowed.
any sane manufacturer would not do that.
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But does it have to have certain open times every day?
I buy my hot spices & sauces from a company that is basically ran by 3 guys who are doing it aside from their actual work. They do own warehouse, but if you want to pick up from there instead their posting it, they have two such times a week (mondays and thursdays, at 3pm). I went there once to pick up since they're near me, but remember it's a specialized store importing stuff overseas and mostly selling online, because there just isn't so many peop
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Anti-competitive business is bad for us all. (Score:2)
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Did you READ the story? The proposed law does not allow GOVERNMENTS to restrict sales to online retailers that have brick-and-mortar shops. It allows SUPPLIERS to allow their goods to be sold only by online retailers who have brick-and-mortar stores.
Since suppliers should be free to control who sells their products in any way they choose that does not violate protected-class laws, they should be free to do so. Hell, they should be free to allow their products only to be sold by companies whose names star
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Well, most of the EU countries actually have better income and hence higher prices too. I don't really know how they manage that, but it seems like it's a good model compared to US's.
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Or do you suggest 100 items sold at € 50.- is better for the economy than 50 items at € 100.-?
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Statistics can lie, the better economic indicator is the minimum wage, and what percentage of the population earn the minimum wage and whether that minimum wage is actually liveable, paying for food, clothing, buying accommodation and of course health. Pointless looking at the median income if the majority of people in point of fact actually earn considerably less than that, I know it is their fault for not being born in a family where nepotism ensure earning many many multiples of the average salary.
Rem
WTF (Score:5, Informative)
This is one of the dumbest ideas I've heard out of a politico in a long, long time.
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Just wait a dumber one is on the way!
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Yes, I understand that a bill is before Congress in the US requiring parents to wrap their children in bubble wrap until they're 18 years old.
GOSHDAMNIT, THINK OF THE CHILDREN, YOU SELFISH BASTARDS!
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But nothing good can get in either. We should just dive right in and go straight for Borg maturation chambers.
Sounds like a plan. Nothing's too good for the children.
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Plus Borg chambers will prepare the kids for life working as an unskilled worker flipping burgers at McDonald's (or more likely special synthetic burgers that taste vaguely like Big Mac's but are really synthetic goop of all the nutrients some government scientist has said we need)
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They can't figure out how to tax people into the dirt. So that's how they're going to do it.
Luxury Brands? (Score:4, Interesting)
From the article
Brand owners - often in the high-end or luxury segment - say the provision is necessary to stop so-called free riders, competitors who benefit from promotions carried out by brand name companies, shifting stock online on the back of advertising of a brand's products and services.
Because "free riders" do not have to pay for the costs of a shop and related overheads, they can frequently offer brand-name products over the Internet at discounted prices.
"The purpose of a brick-and-mortar shop provision is to help retailers invest in luxury shops," said Antoine Winkler, a partner at law firm Cleary Gottlieb Steen & Hamilton who represents several brand name companies.
I'm slightly confused. Are they doing this to help the brick-and-mortar stores? Are they doing this to help the brands? I'm confused. It sounds like they are trying to take down low-overhead companies because they are too efficient. Does anyone know why this would be a good idea?
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The brink and motor and/or brands are paying the politicians more?
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If you owned a mom-and-pop store, I think that you would see it as a good idea.
I don't defend the concept that they are promoting, but clearly, that's one obvious example of a group
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What's to stop Mom and Pop from starting a website instead? There's a difference between being unable to compete, and being unwilling to compete.
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Your post really doesn't make much sense.
Random website on the internet competing with megacorps on the internet
versus
Random shop down the street competing with megacorps 5 miles away.
Existing physical presence is invaluable when you're small. It's usually not worth it to buy a physical shop if you don't already have one, but if you already exist, keeping your physical shop open is vital.
Starting a website instead is a terrible idea.
You could surf the internet for years without coming across their site.
Exis
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The arcade guy is in a specialty market and probably gets a lot of business through word-of-mouth via arcade machine owners, web forums etc.
Plus there are unlikely to be any big megacorps trying to take away his business.
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The arcade guy is in a specialty market and probably gets a lot of business through word-of-mouth via arcade machine owners, web forums etc.
Yes, of course. But without the internet, he probably wouldn't have a business. If he set up a storefront, it would be money wasted because so few locals would visit.
Plus there are unlikely to be any big megacorps trying to take away his business.
Yes, but that's irrelevant. This new proposed law isn't going to make a distinction for guys like this; it's going to say
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I guess that's what I get for not reading TFA....
In this case, I don't really care. I honestly don't give two shits if Coach and similar brands are required to sell to online vendors or not; it's not like I'd ever buy those things. In fact, this seems like it should be allowed to expire, as I don't see why anyone should be forced to sell to certain stores if they don't want to.
Re:Luxury Brands? (Score:5, Insightful)
If you owned a mom-and-pop store, I think that you would see it as a good idea.
And if you owned a mom-and-pop online store, I think you would see it as a horrible idea.
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Of course. I didn't imply otherwise.
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From the article
Brand owners - often in the high-end or luxury segment - say the provision is necessary to stop so-called free riders, competitors who benefit from promotions carried out by brand name companies, shifting stock online on the back of advertising of a brand's products and services.
Because "free riders" do not have to pay for the costs of a shop and related overheads, they can frequently offer brand-name products over the Internet at discounted prices.
"The purpose of a brick-and-mortar shop provision is to help retailers invest in luxury shops," said Antoine Winkler, a partner at law firm Cleary Gottlieb Steen & Hamilton who represents several brand name companies.
I'm slightly confused. Are they doing this to help the brick-and-mortar stores? Are they doing this to help the brands? I'm confused. It sounds like they are trying to take down low-overhead companies because they are too efficient. Does anyone know why this would be a good idea?
I don't know either. Is the next move to mandate that companies selling "luxury" brands must locate their store in a high-rent part of town too? I mean it just can't be fair if they set up a shop in the bad part of town and pay a fraction of the rent that the luxury stores pay, right? I'm not sure where this madness would end...
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The EU is not requiring that there is a brick-and-mortar store. The luxury brands themselves are doing. It's just that the EU used to prohibit them from discriminating against online retailers. Now they are letting luxury brands make that choice if they feel like it's worth it for their brand image. I don't see why there's such an uproar on slashdot.
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The EU is not requiring that there is a brick-and-mortar store. The luxury brands themselves are doing. It's just that the EU used to prohibit them from discriminating against online retailers. Now they are letting luxury brands make that choice if they feel like it's worth it for their brand image. I don't see why there's such an uproar on slashdot.
Probably because TFA does a piss poor job of explaining that. Even after reading your explanation I'm still left wondering if this change only applies to luxury brands or everyone. I'm fine with the supplier getting to choose who they sell to, but the rules should be the same for everyone, and that's hardly clear here.
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"According to a draft regulation drawn up by the European Commission and seen by Reuters, suppliers may be allowed to require that distributors have a "brick-and-mortar" shop before they can sell online."
First sentence in the article.
The law would allow suppliers to require the retail stores to have a brick and mortar location before they sell, something I gues they aren't allowed to do now. This actually sounds like the EU saying "ok, you can refuse to sell to people who don't fit your business model", wh
Re:Luxury Brands? (Score:4, Insightful)
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From the perspective of the brand owners - they want to promote their stuff in the major retailers. In recent years brands have been cooperating tightly with major stores to the point that they even send salespeople and rent store space. I feel more like I'm walking into a showroom than a retail store.
The retailers can have premium margins, and the major brands can be sure to stomp out pesky competition.
It used to be that retailers sought to purchase the best stock available and sell it at competitive price
not the end of the world (Score:5, Funny)
of course its anticompetitive bullshit, i guess department stores are adapting music industry tactics, complete with buying off legislators
but it would be pretty neat to have an "eBay" showroom
ebay could pick the wackiest shit: jesus on toast, my 7 year old's baby teeth, this obscene and bizarre plastic thing i bought in bangkok 3 years ago, etc., and put it on prominent display, like million dollar art work. purposefully play off a contrived vibe of reverence and awe, for really crappy mundane shit. it could be funny
then you can only buy certain stuff at say, 11 am sharp
and during checkout, if the guy behind you gives the clerk 10 cents more than your price while you are still reaching for your cash, he gets it instead
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but don't forget (Score:5, Funny)
security guards would not allow you to leave the eBay showroom until you shout "A++++ WOULD BUY FROM AGAIN!!!"
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But imagine (Score:4, Interesting)
Going to the Newegg store, where it's a warehouse with a couple of cashiers in the front. The employees aren't there to help you they are there to get stuff to shipping. I'd wander around there for hours.
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I've been to an online retailer's "store"/warehouse. There was a computer at the front desk, so you could place an order, and have it within a few minutes. That was all.
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My favorite electronics components store [jameco.com] has something like that. Or did a few years back, when I was in the Bay area on other business and stopped by one afternoon.
Their "storefront" was the front of their warehouse, a waiting-room looking area with a couple of registers and some assorted other folks behind a counter. The seating area, and the counter top, had current and recent copies of their paper catalog and big stacks of order forms.
Pick up an order form, page through the catalog, fill in your order,
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Actually it would be more like Directron [directron.com] Their multi-acre warehouse in Houston, Texas has a small store in the front full of PC cases of every conceivable design and off-lease equipment. They also have several kiosks where you can sit down to browse their web site and order what you want. Once you order you walk over to the Will call kiosk and type in your order number to tell them you are there to pick up the merchandise. A few minutes later someone will come out from the warehouse with your stuff and proc
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A very similar system has been practiced by a supermarket chain in Russia as well (mostly selling electronics and other hardware) - kiosks to browse catalogs, order gives you a printout with a number, then you wait until it pops up on one of the screens around (there are plenty, with some "conveniently" tucked into the surrounding fast food shops), and finally head to the place where they will hand it out. It drives the price down by quite a bit, which is why the thing was very popular among those in the kn
No more Beanie Babies from Norway (Score:1)
This law will require major reworking of Weird Al's EBay song [youtube.com].
Goodbye Beanie Babies from Norway...snif...
Easy to fulfil (Score:1)
1. Find a small village where rooms are cheap. No one will want to go there, but that doesn't matter; you don't actually plan to sell much there anyway.
2. Rent a small room, and pay one employee to be there and sell. The selling happens to be just that if someone goes to him to buy, he orders the product online to the shop address, and then the person ordering it can fetch it there. You will not sell much this way (maybe a few items per year), but then, it's only to comply to the law.
3. Tell the regulators
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EU arrogance ? (Score:2, Insightful)
The EU government seems to think that they are the most important in the world while neither China or the US care about them as Obama showed recently.
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I thought lost jobs was a good thing? (Score:1, Insightful)
When a smaller number of people can supply an equal amount of goods and services, that frees up the superfluous people to do other jobs, for example supply back massages or clean windows. In net, society is better off, even if someone painfully loses their job in the short term.
This is different from another model of employment, which we may call the "Soviet" model, where something done by few people is a social ill because it deprives the remaining people of jobs.
Seriously, sometimes it seems like our Euro
So.. (Score:1)
Webspace providers, discussion boards (Score:3, Funny)
Unfortunately this has been going on a while now.. (Score:5, Informative)
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Newsflash you are always selling on price, before they were using lack of information as a method of gaining profit. Profit is waste, and efficient systems that ensure equal information remove waste.
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Do you not sell on price alone. If this were the case the world would be full of geeks running e-stores out of bedrooms which allow for the lowest overheads thus the smallest margin.
Customers (outside of
Turnabout is fair play (Score:5, Interesting)
I like this requirement. I think they should also require that all brick-and-mortar stores have an online store that sells everything they have in the brick-and-mortar store, and always be up to date.
So, will we see FedEx/Kinko's/eBay stores? (Score:2)
Could eBay just work out a deal with FedEx (or whatever the major shipping carrier is in the EU) where they have a few in-store electronic "catalogs" (web browsers set to eBay's website)? Then you could come in, browse, choose an item you want, find out "Sorry, it's not in stock. We can order from our distributor.", then come back a few days and buy the item, or even have it delivered directly to your home. Maybe they could keep a few stupid things in stock, like shipping boxes and bricks.
This is stupid (Score:2)
Why? what the fuck? this probably is to make these brick & mortar shops be able to compete with the online ones. so is a anti-competitive measure, but since we sell online to the world, will harm our industry.
Why again?
Business Opportunity (Score:2)
1. Buy a small brick & mortar location (it can be out of the way - that's not the point).
2. 'Host' a virtual business store front in a portion of your location for a monthly fee.
3. To keep the overhead low, only be open for 1 hour a day & require that there be no products available for sale.
4. Only accept cash.
5. The money from sales made (which there shouldn't be) go to the brick & mortar business owner.
It's just like web hosting, except your' renting virtual brick & mortar space.
This will have little impact. (Score:2)
all an online retailer has to do is open up a small sale office at their warehouse where people can order and pay for products by ID/SKU. Voila! Instant Brick and Mortar store. Hell, setting up a lemonade stand in the warehouse parking lot would qualify as a brick and mortar store as long as you charge VAT.
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Yup. Additionally, they could have a take-a-number system and only see one customer per day, and they could charge a 300% surcharge for in-person pickups. It isn't like any of their customers are going to be bothered by this - their entire real market is online.
The only real impact would be on companies that are 100% based out-of-country. However, those companies can still keep selling to the locals, and it will be up to the local government to try to intercept all the packages in the mail lest heaven fo
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Not all online retailers have warehouses; some are home-based businesses, selling niche products at quantities only sufficient to employ one or two people.
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Do you think they would have suppliers who would want to restrict sales to those with a brick-and-mortar store?
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It depends. IMO, any home-based business trying to compete with some giant B&M store directly (or with the likes of Newegg.com) is idiotic. The place where tiny online businesses really shine is with niche markets that simply aren't served by retail stores. Check out this place for an example: http://www.jammaboards.com/ [jammaboards.com]
What kind of retail store are you going to shop at for a replacement arcade cabinet button? Or for a new power supply for your original Pac-Man game? I've never heard of any retail
eBay can open a store ... (Score:2)
... that sells air. Buyer supplies the packaging, though.
I believe that would take a single guy with a cash register to satisfy the legal requirements, no?
This stuff is happening in Australia too (Score:2)
Several higher end electronics companies (Panasonic for example) have stopped selling to online-only stores.
Too many people go into the B&M store, get the product demo, show the online-only store price and ask for a price match and then (when they are inevitably refused), go to the online only store and buy the product.
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Yes, but even the devil is right about some things, and this is one of them. This proposed law is the stupidest thing I've heard of out of the EU so far.
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Yep, everyone who is a useless middleman is scared of this new type of economy where producers and consumers can interact directly, without many layers of middlemen who add no value whatsoever and just lots of cost. Without a need for them any more, these middlemen will now have to find a way to actually produce something of value for a change, or starve. Instead, they're going to the government to try to have their obsolete business model mandated by law.
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The EU can't regulate external states.
I'm sure the requirement to block all non-brick-and-mortar companies (e-bay, amazon, etc) on the intrawebs will go over like a lead balloon there. China might be able to pull that off...not the EU.
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I hate replying to AC, but you are right. The Commission is actually recommending for the status quo to be maintained.
Here's [europa.eu] the press release to prove it. This story is BS at its finest.