EU Overturns Agreement With US On Banking Data 214
Following the lead of the civil liberties committee which last week recommended dropping it (against the wishes of the US), qmaqdk writes "The EU parliament overturned the previous agreement with the US which allowed US intelligence agencies to access EU banking data."
Well done! (Score:5, Insightful)
Good for them, way to grow a spine, Europe! Now if only American banks had the same motivation to protect its customers data from the very same agencies.
Damn (Score:4, Insightful)
Now they'll just have to go back to the old fashioned way.
In case of emergency, break law
Re:Well done! (Score:4, Insightful)
But they're on the same side, and they get their buddies into plum jobs - just look at how good Henry Paulson was for them. Why would American banks argue with the American government? Everyone would benefit more if they just agreed to scratch each others' backs. (Well, except for the customers, but who cares about them, right?)
We already know how this works (Score:5, Insightful)
I'll show you mine if you show me yours.
As a US Citizen all I can say is... (Score:4, Insightful)
About time the EU showed some backbone and told the US where to stick it. The US has bent everyone else over and had their way far too long. Now that the US's economy is a mess, the dollar is weak and getting weaker and the Euro is fast taking the place the Dollar once had, the US needs to be sent a strong, loud and clear message that it's hay day is over and it's going to have to rely upon diplomacy, cooperation and fair play instead of idle threats and ham-fisted foreign policy towards it's allies.
Not forgetting to ... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Can someone please explain to me ... (Score:0, Insightful)
Obama is more intelligent and is also a better speaker.
Re:Cool, now nobody has to pay taxes. (Score:5, Insightful)
Americans that want to avoid taxes, can now bank in Europe again.
Right, so to stop a few corrupt individuals and companies in the US avoiding paying tax in the US by banking in Europe, every banking transaction that passes through Europe (or the EU, with 27 countries and over 500m people - that's more than all of North America) should be reported to the US... Something about setting ones own house in order before messing with other people's springs to mind.
Moving on, it is nice to see that the (democratically elected) European Parliament is finally able to stand up to the (appointed) Council of Ministers (and the US); the Lisbon Treaty does have its good points (even if it was pushed through in a rather undemocratic way). Now if only the rest of it could get implemented and the Swedish Pirate Party could get their second MEP into office.
Re:Cool, now nobody has to pay taxes. (Score:3, Insightful)
Yes, AGAIN, it's not like the US always had the right to see EU banking data.
Furthermore the world is a bit bigger than only the US and the EU, there'll always be opportunities.
They'll still be able to see the cashflow going out of the country though, unless it's foreign money.
In short: not a valid argument and props to the EU for finally deciding that they will not kiss American ass any longer.
Re:Well done! (Score:4, Insightful)
But they're on the same side
There is no such thing in politics and finances.
Re:Can someone please explain to me ... (Score:4, Insightful)
For starters, we don't seem to be bombarded with "with us or against us" rhetoric.
Also, current administration has at least enough tact to not encourage negative attitued towards, say, France; or "Old Europe".
Oh, it's more sinister than that... (Score:5, Insightful)
Actually, as I understand it, this one was more a case of I'll show you yours if you'll show me mine.
The intelligence "sharing" is done precisely because each side could get in legal and/or political trouble for spying on its own citizens without good cause. On the other hand, if it's just foreign intelligence provided by a friendly state, well, that's OK, then. This is as much one in the eye for certain EU governments (whose appointed representatives previously forced this measure through at European level mere hours before the Lisbon Treaty kicked in and meant the elected MEPs would get a say, remember) as it is for the US.
Re:Can someone please explain to me ... (Score:3, Insightful)
How's Obama any different than Bush?
The US is still oppressing their rules and wishes onto the rest of the world.
Nothing has changed.
Obama is using diplomacy to get other countries to do what we want, while Bush used more or less thinly veiled threats. Whether or not that's better is debatable, but at least in theory it will give other countries more of a choice in the matters.
The easiest way to deal with such US demands... (Score:5, Insightful)
It seems to me the US is quick to access other countries' data, but it far less willing to provide equal access to internal data as well.
Hence this would either level the playing ground or put a stop to US demands.
Comment removed (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:The easiest way to deal with such US demands... (Score:5, Insightful)
is to require reciprocity. That goes for access to financial data as well as travelling/airline data.
Though slowly, it seems that other countries are getting fed up with certain US policies.
Your comment reminded me of this incident [chinadaily.com.cn] few years ago.
Re:Huh? (Score:1, Insightful)
well you have the white wash cover up version i thought up while using the john, the servers were in the US and the data was just picked off from the copper lines, the europeans found out and moved the servers to europe, and the US asked for the data, the eu agreed, some politics and certain dates made it possible, then it was voted on and the US lost the info, possible payback for the cia-italy and the boeing-airbus, oh and lichenstein
Re:Can someone please explain to me ... (Score:4, Insightful)
Well, if Bush was as bad with a teleprompter than Obama is without one, then I'd say that it's still a definite improvement.
Re:Can someone please explain to me ... (Score:3, Insightful)
Does it actually matter?
I want a president who surrounds himself with smart people and listens to them. That's a smart leader, not necessarily one who is the best at everything.
Re:Oh, it's more sinister than that... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: Let the Light Shine (Score:1, Insightful)
"There is no valid reason for anyone to be able to have private bank data."
Yes, US agencies should be able to "accidentally" pass all banking data of EU companies to their US competitors. After all, we are all friends, aren't we? Nobody would dare to abuse that.
The US government would "never" tolerate industrial espionage ... no siree ... never ... starting tomorrow ... or maybe next year ... well definitely 2012 ... under certain conditions ... not.
Re:Cool, now nobody has to pay taxes. (Score:5, Insightful)
Ah something was denied to the US the US defense trigger some have comes out automatically without thinking. You have to be aware of that this treaty was a mutual spy upon you treaty. The US could not legally spy on the transactions of its own citizense but they could more or less spy upon the europeans, and vice versa, so what happens is that the data gets exchanged (all friend countries so why even doing some spying?) and then suddenly the US government has "YOUR" data (as well as all european governments and foreign agencies).
Before wishing us evil, think twice that the EU government has basically stopped a blatant spy attack of the US government against its own citizens and vice versa. Besides shifting banking data also opens the door to industry espionage especially in the banking sector.
Kicking all this was a good thing for both sides.
I hope the same will happen to whatever the dreaded Acta group currently negotiates. The EU parliament already is pretty pissed that they do not get any information as well there is a very high chance that the Acta groups treaties never will make it through the parliament no matter what is in there, they already made a significant number of people angry so that they vote against it automatically.
Re:Can someone please explain to me ... (Score:3, Insightful)
I would not be so harsh about Obama,he has to face an entirely different situation. Bush also was not honest about his believes, most of the Iraq war just was done to get a handful of US corporations to cash in. Cheneys company was one of the huge winners of this deal, the international soldiers the loosers.
Obama currently fights an entirely different battle, Bush gave to him a basically fucked up country, not close to bankrupcy but with a serious debt problem, an pushing everything through is a problem because the entire parliament is just whores on the payroll of lobbyists anymore. So to get your agendas even remotely through you have to do some rearrangements with the current political situation. The situation of Bush was much easier because he just reigned for the payroll of the lobbyists and did not care about anything else.
For that I personally think Obama has been doing very well, but my personal opinion simply is you cannot rule the US anymore, there is too much greed selfishism and too much bribery (on legal level via donations) going on. I personally doubt anyone could do better than Obama did, I think 99% of all people in his position would even do worse.
Re:It's not just the PIGS (Score:5, Insightful)
Portugal, Italy, Greece and Spain are the worst but not the least. Most of the countries in Europe have spending and Debt levels that (as a percentage of GDP) are double the US level everyone is worried about. ...
Uhm, the US federal deficit stands at 10.64% [usgovernmentspending.com], only slightly lower than the 12.5% of Greece, the worst performer in the Euro zone at this time. Portugal seems to have a deficit of 9.3%, Spain 11%. The I in PIGS is Ireland with 11%, not Italy. Mind you, these are the worst performers in the Euro zone, and relatively small economies, the average figures of of the entire Euro zone are looking a lot better than the US right now, and definitely better than the UK. The market doesn't only look at cold, hard figures though.
About the Euro tanking vs the dollar, I remember almost a decade ago, the Euro was worth about $0.70, now it stands at twice that amount. Both those extreme values are unrealistic and harmful, it would be better to have a stable exchange rate close to 1:1
Re:Well done! (Score:3, Insightful)
I think you are confusing the act they play for public consumption with the real thing.
It's like lawyers: in court they will fight for their side (it's their job), but outside they might go out together for golfing on weekends.
The main difference is that lawyers have constraints which for example make it unlawfull to get together and screw one of the sides in a case for personal benefit.
Politicians and the "masters of the universe" on the other hand have no real constraints with regards to screwing the side they "represent".
Re:Can someone please explain to me ... (Score:3, Insightful)
I want a president who surrounds himself with smart people and listens to them. That's a smart leader, not necessarily one who is the best at everything.
It's very common for someone to have an over-inflated view of their own abilities. Such people will only perceive others to be smart if those others agree with everything they say.
This is how you wind up with idiots surrounded by yes-men in charge.
Re:Huh? (Score:5, Insightful)
Was this bank service, like, handling the transactions that finance world terror groups and insuring their privacy?
I'm sorry, I don't see why that excuses a foreign Government monitoring the financial transactions of people, companies and financial institutions in my country.
Re:As a US Citizen all I can say is... (Score:5, Insightful)
The dollar has gained quite significantly since 2007. The Euro's mindshare was the first thing to go in the recession... Not just a chink in the armor, but a forced realization that a defacto currency, from which any country can opt-out at any time, with no central governing authority, but with individual authorities with a poor understanding of how to handle such changes, and with several weak players involved, is not a safe bet in the slightest
The dollar regained gained some, after having steadily declined from about EUR 1.25 to about EUR 0.65
I don't know what you base the idea on that any country could opt-out of it at any time. Such an operation would be purely theoretical, the actual process of leaving the EUR after having joined would take years, carry a staggering cost and would seriously harm the economic outlook of any country attempting it. It's unthinkable, joining the EUR is a one way path.
I'd point to Kosovo for a look at what European "diplomacy" can do... Lots of speeches over the years about "never again," and then a whole lot of nothing when a real stand needs to be made,
It has a whole lot to do with the reluctance towards looking at only one side of an issue. I'd call it a difference in culture between the US and post WW2 Europe. In the US, there is still a strong belief in right vs wrong, good vs. evil. In a conflict, there must be one side that's right and another one that is wrong. Kosovo and Bosnia were solved very decisively by the US, by picking a side, obliterating the other side, and blaming the entire conflict on the obliterated party. It worked, the conflict is over. It no longer matters that the ethnic cleansing in Kosovo later turned out to have been a fabrication, and that the good guys in Bosnia turned out to have been almost as nasty as the bad guys.
I say this not as an ignorant and arrogant American, but as a distant observer.. /. so often is a rather serious case of not being able to see the forest for the trees. The grass may seems greener on the other side, but it's pretty clear that there's no grass at all over there...
(...) but this (largely Europeans) fervent anti-Americanism we see touted on
I say this as a half-yank, half-eurofag. In my experience the anti-Americanism in Europe is exaggerated in the US media. Euros just tend to be more 'negative' in general, and many Americans experience any shimmer of doubt or negativity as anti-American. I don't experience anti-Americanism in Europe as worse than anti-Europism in the US, or anti-California-ism in Texas.
Re:Oh, it's more sinister than that... (Score:5, Insightful)
Sorry, just to clarify my own post: yes, the SWIFT-related deal is inherently one-sided in terms of the US getting the information first, but that isn't the cause of the main complaints here in the UK, at least not those that have been widely reported in the media AFAICS. People aren't asking why the US isn't doing something reciprocal (what would that be, given the nature of SWIFT?), they are asking why this is allowed at all.
Re:As a US Citizen all I can say is... (Score:4, Insightful)
As a Bosnian, let me point out that neither Croats nor Muslims in Bosnia were nearly as bad as Serbs. Maybe if you took a bit of time from trying to fit everything into one tidy world view where your neat generalization applies to everything, you'd learn that Serbia went to war with Slovenia, then Croatia, then Bosnia and finally Kosovo. This alone should make it blindingly obvious to anyone who the bad guy is
Because, sometimes there really is a bad guy and someone needs to make him pay.
My apologies if that ruins your neat little theory of Europe vs USA culture.
Re:As a US Citizen all I can say is... (Score:1, Insightful)
ethnic cleansing in Kosovo later turned out to have been a fabrication
[citation needed]
Re:As a US Citizen all I can say is... (Score:3, Insightful)
What is the other side of committing genocide? Please tell me, I'd love to hear you generalize that too.
Again, you're trying to create a generalization that applies to both the American civil war and the war in ex-Yugoslavia. There is no common thread there. We were (five) different nationalities and cultures with different wishes for the futures of our countries. We split, and now we are different countries. I know even you can tell the difference in sides as you went for "almost as nasty" in your initial post. Though, you may want to learn, in a slightly more detailed way, the histories of our countries before playing expert on slashdot.
Of course, none of this bears any similarity to the civil war in USA.