US DOJ Says Kindle In Classroom Hurts Blind Students 492
angry tapir writes "Three US universities will stop promoting the use of Amazon.com's Kindle DX e-book reader in classrooms after complaints that the device doesn't give blind students equal access to information. Settlements with Case Western Reserve University in Cleveland, Pace University in New York City and Reed College in Portland, Oregon, were announced Wednesday by the US Department of Justice. The National Federation of the Blind and the American Council of the Blind had complained that use of the Kindle devices discriminates against students with vision problems."
Hmm, this seems illogical. (Score:5, Insightful)
Uhmm (Score:1, Insightful)
Blind students don't have anywhere close to the access to information seeing people do... Not sure what the point is here
I don't understand (Score:4, Insightful)
Okay, I do understand the technicalities regarding why they say the Kindle is not as accessible to blind students as it is to sighted students. But what I don't get is - how is it different from the status quo? Blind students can't read regular textbooks already. What is it we can do for them with a printed textbook that we can't do with an electronic textbook?
And don't bring up braille, since that is a separate edition that has to be produced (and is thus independent of whether the "normal" book is on paper or electronic).
Somebody please tell the DOJ (Score:5, Insightful)
That Harrison Bergeron is a warning........not a fucking "how-to" manual.
http://www.tnellen.com/cybereng/harrison.html [tnellen.com]
Re:Hmm, this seems illogical. (Score:5, Insightful)
Nope sorry, no idea. Still I'm sure The National Federation of the Blind and the American Council of the Blind are patting themselves on the back for holding back the majority of students while in no way impacting any partially sighted or blind student in any way what-so-ever. Good for them!
[1]: I have partial sight in my right eye due to several holes in my retina, one of which is directly in the center of my vision.
Re:Amazon should love this precedent (Score:5, Insightful)
So, all Amazon needs to do is turn back on the text-to-speech feature...
DOJ in classroom... (Score:4, Insightful)
The DOJ in the classroom hurts everyone.
Lowest Common Denominator mentality (Score:5, Insightful)
"If you can have it and I can't I'll sue" - Pretty soon kids are lucky to have access to food and clothing, let alone an education. It's a losing strategy compared to say innovating and catering to diversity. Why can't they lobby for an ebook reader that does cater to the blind. Perhaps popup braile? Instead of wasting effort sending all your kids minds back to the stone age. Doesn't have to be a Kindle either. Leave the brand names out of it.
In other news (Score:5, Insightful)
oh god (Score:4, Insightful)
maybe they can force sighted students to wear blindfolds in class in future so that the blind have equal footing
Re:Hmm, this seems illogical. (Score:4, Insightful)
books company didn't stop releasing books in braille after the kindle release, blind student still can buy them.
How is it a unfair advantage ? I should always wear something that cover my eyes because it's unfair for them if I can see with my two eyes ?
Shhhhh (Score:5, Insightful)
You're talking COMMON SENSE there. If you're not careful, the agents of PC and Government interference will show up and arrest you.
Re:Hmm, this seems illogical. (Score:5, Insightful)
Simple: by forcing Amazon to come out with a new device that caters more to their needs, 0.3% of the population [center4research.org] (~1 million blind vs 300 million Americans) forces the other 99.7% of the population to pay for all the hardware and software advances required for them to use the device.
Completely fair IMHO
Canadian Healthcare like this too (Score:3, Insightful)
It is illegal for a resident of Canada covered by Canadian health care (say, a citizen, or landed immigrant) to pay for health care, and illegal for a health care provider to charge if they are in the "voluntary" system (which covers 99%+ of the population who can not legally pay anyway) which effectively forces almost all providers to be "in" the system. (There are specialty private clinics catering to non-citizen athletes, etc.)
This is similar to the socialized medicine systems in Cuba and North Korea (but, not, for example, the U.K. and other places with "two tier" socialized health care systems).
The argument is exactly this: it is unfair for some to have what others do not, even if they can pay for it.
This has some interesting effects: When I displayed my American-born son's American passport, he was seen in the clinic ahead of any Canadians who were there ahead of him. See, non-covered persons must pay, and pay more than the clinic receives from the government, so they get first dibs while Canadians wait in line.
Re:Hmm, this seems illogical. (Score:5, Insightful)
I have this notion that electronic copies of books might even be more accessible, as there is no need to do any OCR; I guess if the students in question are already used to using some system that isn't compatible...
Re:Ebooks not the problem, kindle navigation is (Score:5, Insightful)
No, it isn't more accessible. Without navigation, it is completely inaccessible. But the fix is very easy: tie the user interface into the text-to speech application that already exists on the device. This publicity will ensure that happens in a very timely fashion.
Re:your highest achievable standard.,.. (Score:3, Insightful)
Use your tongue to read your braille books instead. This should also stop people from buying used books...
Re:Ebooks not the problem, kindle navigation is (Score:3, Insightful)
Because the kindle can be made accessible to the visually impaired with the simple fix of letting the text-to-speech reader that is already included read the damn interface. How much are you willing to bet that, thanks to this publicity, the Kindle will include such functionality in the near future? It's a win for everyone. The blind get a device that lets them enjoy books easily. Amazon gets a bigger market. Other manufacturers of e-book readers get free market advice, and can ensure their readers ship with such functionality.
Re:Ebooks not the problem, kindle navigation is (Score:3, Insightful)
so with a book a blind person feel until they are at the edge of the page qnd tunrn the page. With the Kindal, they feel there way to the button on the edge of the page and push it.
Jeez, they're blind, not stupid. However most group di\esigned to protect soneone often thing\ks the poeple they are protecting are idiots. See GLAAD
Re:Hmm, this seems illogical. (Score:4, Insightful)
Same. I don't understand what the fuck these people are thinking. I'm "legally" blind and the Kindle is great because you can set the text size. You can't do that with a book. And for fully blind people, wouldn't it be easier, rather than harder, to pipe digital text to a braille reader?
This (again, as someone who is legally blind) is just stupid people being stupid.
Re:Hmm, this seems illogical. (Score:5, Insightful)
None of the university e-books have text-to-speech enabled for them, in order to preserve the jobs of human text to speech convertors.
Re:Hmm, this seems illogical. (Score:3, Insightful)
I mean, for crying out loud, the Kindle has a text-to-speech reader built in. How many books have that?
In other news... (Score:2, Insightful)
I'm all for accommodating the disabled, however denying privileges to the able bodied because not everybody can participate is asinine. No matter what activity you select, there will be somebody unable to participate. Do what's best for 99% of people and then do your best to accommodate the remaining 1%.
Re:Hmm, this seems illogical. (Score:5, Insightful)
exactly, see here!
http://news.slashdot.org/story/09/02/28/0127236/Amazon-Caves-On-Kindle-2-Text-To-Speech [slashdot.org]
The DOJ didn't exactly stick up for Amazon when they enabled text-to-speech by default for all Kindle books.... Now they claim they can't use them because it's "unfair" to blind people.... Blind people can't read EVERY book without help.... kindle make it cheaper for the rest of us to have materials. There are SPECIAL programs and credits to convert material for blind people that schools are supposed to offer... not turn off stuff for the rest of us!!
Re:Hmm, this seems illogical. (Score:1, Insightful)
That's actually something I'm curious about - are most books available in braille? Literature books, if sufficiently mainstream, are manageable. Foreign languages as well, but what about math or chemistry? I went looking and it seems like they are still trying to figure out how to deal with calculus. Without that, you pretty much preclude any version of analysis or differential equations. As an instructor, I have no idea how I'd handle teaching someone who couldn't see my work at the board. As with anything the answer depends on the details - if they are promoting the Kindle as being more efficient/cheaper than the corresponding texts, the blind can use the corresponding (braille) texts and are no worse than before while their peers are better off. If there is something interactive, then it is more of an issue. This still seems like something better dealt with by the university's special needs office rather than the legal system.
Re:Hmm, this seems illogical. (Score:5, Insightful)
Is there a law that says devices of this sort must have equal access for handicapped users?
I'm deaf. When I go to movies, I get only half of the experience of "normal" viewers because I don't get the dialog. Should I sue the producers and the theater chains because they don't caption movies for me? No. I simply wait until it comes out on DVD and watch it on my TV, with captioning enabled.
It sucks for blind people, in general. Granted, the Kindle doesn't help them. However, they've no business taking it out on the Kindle or universities that find it a useful tool. Adapt. It's what we do.
Re:Hmm, this seems illogical. (Score:3, Insightful)
not really, e-books can be published in Kindle format and read into more compatible readers. If somebody make a cost effective one, Amazon would probably allow Kindle books on it (should the COPYRIGHT holders agree.. the ones who disable text-to-speech to charge blind kids MORE in the first place)
It's not Amazon's problem Kindle isn't perfect for all students. Colleges and Publishers have complete control to make the books available in formats Blind can access. It requires more PLANNING and things like daily news isn't always available, but again that's the School's job to make those materials accessible...not tell everybody else they can't use them.
Re:Hmm, this seems illogical. (Score:3, Insightful)
I would think it would be easier to make a book that does Braille than it was to do eInk. Such a device would not have as good battery life as an eInk device, but should able to take a digital text, and instantly make a Braille text out of it.
No, its not. (Score:3, Insightful)
As someone who has worked in higher ed providing technology for the disabled, I'm happy to see this. If you actually read TFA, you'll see the issue is that there's no text-to-speech in Kindle's menus, so the blind can't navigate the device.
I don't care. I have a tool that I can use, and I can use it. It's not right to hold someone back in the name of egalitarian principals. Saying that I cannot do something, because someone else cannot, is bullshit. Disability does not give you the right to oppress.
Re:Hmm, this seems illogical. (Score:4, Insightful)
Well, books can be typed in braille, the kindle cannot...
You aren't typing a fucking kindle. Sorry but this kind of bullshit is nonsense. If you have a blind student, print out a one-off Braille book.
You could probably print blind books for every damned blind student in the US for the next hundred years with the money that was wasted on even investigating this whole thing.
Re:Hmm, this seems illogical. (Score:4, Insightful)
Professors commonly use materials in class that aren't available in braille form.
But this might be because classes are normally small and I never had a blind person in my class in 4 years...
Maybe there aren't that many blind people at public universities, and dumbing down education for everyone just to make things more convenient for a small fraction of the population, is unreasonable?
I can think of a lot of accomadations that are more reasonable than globally restricting the medium that may be used in classrooms.
If the kindle is to be banned on this basis, then this must apply to other eBook readers too, and other electronic media, such as the use of web/internet-based sites as resources.
Sorry folks, all professors with a "class web page" must now turn these off, since blind and quadroplegic folken can't surf the web anyways.
No actual art can be displayed in 'visual arts appreciation class', to ensure blind people have a fair shot at an A.
And... also, no actual music will be allowed in music appreciation class, to ensure equal access by deaf people.
The real problem lies with DRM! (Score:3, Insightful)
The real problem with this lies with the DRM.
I've knew two guys who copied their A4 books to A3 format; so they could read their materials anyways.
Break the DRM and blind people will be offered options to use textbooks as they want. Not like Amazon wants..
How freaky can it be to have a book, which you can't print or copy a page from, for further reference; in a SCHOOL?
Re:Hmm, this seems illogical. (Score:3, Insightful)
yes you should. they should be able to provide you a device to give you captions for the duration of the movie. its the cost of doing business like handicap signs and wheelchair accessible entry locations.
this is not an inconvenience that 0.1% of the population are hoisting on 99.9% of the population. This is a necessary affirmation that the majority will take care of the minority when the minority needs help to function in society. it is a recognition that we do not leave people behind just because they are disabled and we cater to those who need it. I am completely in agreement with the DoJ here. Civilization demands a higher standard from those who would introduce devices such as the kindle without making additional services available to help the less fortunate. If you are going to introduce e-readers in PUBLIC SCHOOLS then you damn well provide handicap accessible services to the public as a cost of doing business just like the school does or you leave the business to someone who can.
Re:Hmm, this seems illogical. (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Hmm, this seems illogical. (Score:5, Insightful)
e-book donations? (Score:2, Insightful)
As a sighted person and a consumer of college texts, I hearby pledge to donate 1/4 of the difference between dead tree texts and e-book texts to developing a kick-ass text distribution/consumption capability for the disabled.
Seriously - how much end-user savings will this generate for the primary target audience?
I have a serious problem with DoJ denying the university the authority to use a particular technology and demand that the technology incorporate a particular feature set. ADA gives DoJ authority to require the university to provide a REASONABLE ACCOMODATION for those with disabilities that prevent their use of standard facilities/capabilities.
IMHO, requiring Amazon to change the feature set of their commercial product based on ADA for higher education is NOT a reasonable accomodation. The fact that they're big, capable, and that "they just need to abc xyz" is NOT a valid arugment for the reasonableness of the accomodation. Now I have a feeling the settlement actually said that the universities can't make the kindle (or similar device) mandatory until such time as they adequately support folks with disabilities (I'm assuming that's 508 compliance ). Which amounts to requiring Amazon to implement a broad feature set to support a fractionally sized community in order to get access to a large market.
So the precedent is now set - any disability community can leverage any public venue to pick the pocket of a large corporation and require them to accomodate their disability to gain access to the public venue. And the explicit leverage is that the majority of the inhabitants of the public venue will be locked out of the technology or innovation. OK - maybe that's abstract. But now it's a reality, with legal precedent.
Wasn't the point of Atlas Shrugged that if society lays too many burdens, obstacles, and demands on those actually producing (like Amazon...) that their ultimate recourse is to stop producing?
Re:Hmm, this seems illogical. (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Hmm, this seems illogical. (Score:3, Insightful)
The center of vision is called that way because this is where the highest concentration of vision cells (called cones) are located on the retina. If he has a hole in that portion of the retina, moving the retina around in his eyes would not help much, if at all. It just means most of his vision cells are simply shot.
In addition what counts is the connectivity of these cells to the vision center of the brain, which his all the way in the back of the head. Simply adding more cells there would do nothing. One would have to also grow the very long axon that goes to the right place in the brain. Then he would have to learn how to use these cells, because vision is not simply acquired, it is learned. A new baby has a fully functional vision system, but they can't see anything at birth. They learn how to use their vision system little by little.
Simply said what you propose is far beyond what the medical art can do today.
Re:Hmm, this seems illogical. (Score:3, Insightful)
"it is a recognition that we do not leave people behind"
unless they are poor
Text-to-speech disabled (Score:3, Insightful)
Maybe that's because publishers are, by default, disabling the text-to-speech function on their works. I'm annoyed with how many books I downloads on my kindle have text-to-speech disabled.
Re:Kindle lacks navigation for visually impaired (Score:3, Insightful)
Textbooks come in braille format. A simple software patch would allow visually impaired people to use the Kindle. That would be a win for everyone. Why NOT do it?
Re:Kindle lacks navigation for visually impaired (Score:3, Insightful)
I've had to say, 'Way to completely miss the point' dozens of times now. Even after explaining it in simple language, you don't get it. It's like you people can't even read. Go back and read what I wrote again, thankfully, I'm not required by Federal law to cater to stupid people.
Re:Ebooks not the problem, kindle navigation is (Score:3, Insightful)
Yeah, that's so much better than issuing a simple patch to let the text to speech application read the navigation out loud.
Re:Kindle lacks navigation for visually impaired (Score:3, Insightful)
Sorry to be mean, but you were the metaphorical straw on the camel's back.
The fact that regular books are inaccessible to the blind is beside the point. e-books don't need to be. The Kindle has a text to speech converter. And a speaker, obviously. All they need to do is provide a patch to let the Kindle read the list of books on the device. That's it.
And the fact is, nobody is preventing anyone from buying a Kindle. Three universities have stopped promoting it as an alternative to regular books (which, by law, must come in braille editions) If Amazon wants universities to promote its use, they can damn well write the ten lines of code it's going to take to make it read its user interface out loud.
Anyway, sorry for calling you stupid. I"m sure you're no less intelligent than the dozens of other people who couldn't be bothered to read the first two sentences of my post, "The problem isn't e-books or readers per-se. The Kindle even includes a text to speech application." before replying, "Yeah, well blind people can't read books"
Except of course they can read books, since all textbook publishers are required by law to provide braille editions. But an ebook manufacturer isn't required to write a ten line fix. And dozens of trolls jump out to defend them against the evil blind people.
Jesus fucking wept.