Canada's Airlines Face a Privacy Dilemma 457
Interoperable writes "Canada's airlines are caught between a rock and a hard place in the face of new US regulations that require them to collect and hand over personal information about passengers. Handing over information regarding a passenger's name, gender and birth-date may violate Canadian privacy laws but merely flying over American airspace is conditional on doing exactly that. It seems that the long arms of the TSA are eager to grope at Canadians taking a shortcut to Toronto; no doubt to prevent any terrorist attacks on Lake Huron."
Re:Turnabout may be a fair remedy to bad policy... (Score:5, Interesting)
I have a heck of a lot more faith in Canadian airport security than in American airport security! There are some little differences, e.g., we aren't required to take such ridiculous steps as taking our shoes off. But the one biggest difference: our security personnel are calm, collected, and doing their job well.
Case in point: I recently traveled through Philadelphia. Airport security there was a gong show. All of the TSA personnel were in what looked like panic mode -- running around, not standing in one place for more than two seconds, trying to direct a multitude of people and their baggage at once. Contrast this with YVR, YEG, YYC, YYZ, or any of the other Canadian airports I've been through (and for comparison, YYZ is much busier than PHL). All of the personnel at security screenings are standing in one place, directing people in an orderly fashion. Everyone clearly has a single, specific job to do, and they are giving their full attention to doing it.
You can invent all the crazy policies you want about people not standing up for the last hour of a flight, etc. But, one necessary component of security screenings is having well-organized screening areas. When such simple things as that are neglected (for whatever reason), you're doing everything wrong. So I'd think twice before assuming Canadian airport security has much to learn at all from US airport security.
Re:Fuck you America ... (Score:3, Interesting)
I hope more people from outside of the U.S. finds ways to pressure the U.S. government to behave itself. I'm getting increasingly ashamed of my government. It simply doesn't serve the interests of the people. And it's not "paranoia" driving this, it is paranoia that is drummed up to gain support for this. In reality, I don't believe the people of the U.S. support what is going on any longer... hell, most people don't have any idea what's going on. But the first time that people of the U.S. travel to another country and find out that they are treated differently because of their government, the average people WILL learn quickly what is going on.
So please, everyone, push back and push back hard!
Re:Fuck you America ... (Score:4, Interesting)
So I say ever other country starts finger-printing and frisking Americans just as a matter of policy.
See how long before the state departments starts whining about that.
This is precisely why I won't fly into a US airport. Fuck 'em, you country no longer interests me.
You obviously don't get out much. Most countries do far worse than the US. There's a lot of anti American sentiment on Slashdot. Try flying into Saudi Arabia with an Israeli passport or even more fun vice versa. If you listen to some people on Slashdot the US is worse than the Soviet Union ever was. I grew up during the Cold War and that's just plain silly. I've also traveled to many foreign countries and trust me the US isn't that bad and most of the bad was in response to foreigners attacking us. We also have one of the more open immigration and residency policies. Virtually anyone can work here, legal or not, yet oddly enough few countries welcome Americans to work there. I've known many Brits, Australians and Dutch, just examples, that constantly bemoaned how awful it was getting work permits here or how bad the country was yet oddly enough they were working here. I wouldn't be welcome in any of their countries without changing citizenship. Canada has an open immigration policy yet Americans aren't allowed to work there. I work in the film industry and oddly enough it's flooded with Canadians both actors and crew but I can't work there. As a writer I need a Canadian to share writing credit to have a film shot there and it's tough as a director even to work there when it's my script. The whole point is for all the bad things done the negative aspects of the US are ALWAYS overstated and the good points generally ignored. We help support a lot of other countries and economies and we're simply expected to with little or no acknowledgement. We get blasted for using too many resources yet we are also attacked for not buying enough from other countries, odd given our trade deficit. Also we export a large percentage of the food grown here then get blasted over biofuels and that we use too much food. What happens is cherry picking. It's childsplay to find bad laws and bad policies, every country has them. With the US it often seems that's all anyone outside the country wants to see. Most Americans don't agree with their government policies but it's a problem that exists in most countries and is hardly unique to this country. We got blamed for the Bush years but few pointed out the majority of Americans voted against him. He won by a technicality. It's ridiculous to blame each one of us for everything our government does. Just because we get stuck with a certain leader doesn't make us all rightwing conservatives like flipping some cosmic switch. Each country has had their political crosses to bear. You don't have to come to the States just hop on a plane to some other countries around the world and actually see what's out there. If it isn't the utopia you pictured then try the US and see if it's as bad as you thought. Ya gotta leave your parent's basement some time.
Re:Fuck you America ... (Score:5, Interesting)
Actually, when I flew from the UK to Rome a few months ago, it was very noticeable that the staff on arrival were friendly and helpful, and the visible security consisted of a perfunctory passport check and one guard with a dog.
Flying home to Stansted in the UK, we were greeted by long queues and a passport check by someone looking down their nose at us as though it was beneath them to grant us entry to our own country, under the watchful eyes of several armed police officers who hadn't been properly trained to point their weapons somewhere safe when not using them.
I don't know where it all went wrong in the UK and the US, but the Italians are clearly doing something better than we are.
Re:US bullying and demanding other countries.. (Score:3, Interesting)
Yes, I understand that. But it's pointless, as someone could just as easily hijack a Canadian (or Central American, for that matter) flight that was not intended to enter US airspace -- and therefore not subject to US "screening," then make it enter US airspace and pull off the same stunt anyway.
Re:Turnabout may be a fair remedy to bad policy... (Score:1, Interesting)
I have a heck of a lot more faith in Canadian airport security than in American airport security! There are some little differences, e.g., we aren't required to take such ridiculous steps as taking our shoes off. But the one biggest difference: our security personnel are calm, collected, and doing their job well.
Case in point: I recently traveled through Philadelphia. Airport security there was a gong show. All of the TSA personnel were in what looked like panic mode -- running around, not standing in one place for more than two seconds, trying to direct a multitude of people and their baggage at once. Contrast this with YVR, YEG, YYC, YYZ, or any of the other Canadian airports I've been through (and for comparison, YYZ is much busier than PHL). All of the personnel at security screenings are standing in one place, directing people in an orderly fashion. Everyone clearly has a single, specific job to do, and they are giving their full attention to doing it.
You can invent all the crazy policies you want about people not standing up for the last hour of a flight, etc. But, one necessary component of security screenings is having well-organized screening areas. When such simple things as that are neglected (for whatever reason), you're doing everything wrong. So I'd think twice before assuming Canadian airport security has much to learn at all from US airport security.
Well, then Philly's security personnel suck. I've worked at ATL for the past 4 years in the front of the airport, on the international concourse, and on both sides of customs during that time. ATL is the busiest ariport in the world, and I have NEVER seen the TSA security people running around like that. Hell, I can hardly even remember a time when I've seen them move from where they are standing. A lot of them dont even look like they are physically capable of constant movement. You have the people checking IDs with tickets, who then direct the passengers to the lines. You have people standing there making sure people are putting everyhtin in the right place. You have the person on the other side of the detector, and the guy sitting behind the scanner. Everyone doing their job, with clear organization and delegation of duties. Oh, and remember, generalizations are bad.
Re:US bullying and demanding other countries.. (Score:5, Interesting)
It will be interesting to see how closely the US' end follows the USSR's end.
Re:US bullying and demanding other countries.. (Score:2, Interesting)
As a Canadian, I say adopt Brazil's rule on this type of matter - an eye for an eye.
Canada would like passenger information on all US flights overflying Canadian airspace.
We won't tell you what we want it for, or what we're going to do with it.
Oh, and we may veto business passengers on their way to Europe.
Still OK with this policy?
Re:US bullying and demanding other countries.. (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:US bullying and demanding other countries.. (Score:3, Interesting)
We just need others like China, India, and France to do the same. Then the airlines themselves will give the US the finger and move out.
I REALLY love to travel, go places, meet new people, and work all over. But for my next job, I am seriously considering not looking at consulting, but rather a simple 8-5 office job. Every once in a while, the security theater, the mass hysteria/fear, and the sheer inefficient cost of it all drives me to the point where I want to leave the country, and relinquish my citizenship JUST to stop funding it all.
Re:US bullying and demanding other countries.. (Score:4, Interesting)
I traveled atleast every 2 weeks for the past 2-3 years around the southern-mid and eastern part of the US and the ONLY downside for me in traveling were the security checks. I got used to the checks, I could get through them in less than 10-15 minutes.
Not really a big deal in terms of time, but it was VERY irritating. To me it seemed very much like "security theater." I like being mildly efficient, but what I saw was anything but. So things like airport security really get to me, especially the TSA people (not all, about 1 in every 5 or so) who are TOTAL retarts!!! They are basically poorly programmed robots who have no clue what they are doing. They get orders, or what appear to be orders, and they try to follow them to the letter. The actual "security" aspect of their job seems to be missing.
I used to take flights all the time, to go almost anywhere before 9/11, but today I drive anything under 6 hours. Even did a 10 hour drive once instead of a flight (mostly due to cost and last minute), and ended up getting there sooner than a few of my coworkers (oddly less stressed than one or two of them).
Even the company and my coworkers have changed their behavior over this time. If we got far off places, we stay the weekend with a rental rather than fly back every weekend. Or we drive to the 5-6 hour clients. Or we telecommute (crappiest option), or in rare cases, we don't take on the client. I know people who quit because of the required travel (when noone wants to, the low level grunts have to).
Its not all bad in the US, yet, but we are (IMHO) definitely going in the wrong direction. Probably won't get bad enough for me to leave anytime soon, but it is irritating enough that I daydream of expatriate positions, and am seriously considering dropping consulting.