Court Orders Shutdown of H-1B Critics' Websites 605
theodp writes "Computerworld reports that a NJ Superior Court Judge ordered hosting firms to shut down three Web sites that oppose the H-1B visa program and seeks information about the identity of anonymous posters. GoDaddy, Network Solutions, Comcast and DiscountASP.Net were ordered to disable ITgrunt.com, Endh1b.com, and Guestworkerfraud.com. Facebook Inc. was also ordered to disable ITgrunt's Facebook page. The judge's order was made in response to a libel lawsuit filed by Apex Technology Group Inc., which is citing its copyright ownership as it seeks the identity of the poster of a since-removed Apex employment agreement on Docstoc.com, which drew critical comments on US and India websites."
Re:getting myself a glass of iced tea (Score:5, Interesting)
More than that... What exactly is the site doing that would cause a takedown order for the whole domain? I mean, taking down a confidential company document is one thing... But to just issue an order to remove the domain entirely seems like too much.
But, I'm sure that when the sites come back up, they'll have even more readership.
Re:Copyright BS (Score:5, Interesting)
Or even if it could be copyrighted, how that copyright could trump anyone's first amendment rights to comment on a matter of national concern.
Re:H-1B is a Fraud (Score:0, Interesting)
Now, there is a hole and a law can be abused? Tell me something new!
suggestion (Score:2, Interesting)
Maybe the US needs something akin to a license for software engineers. The barrier to entry in this field is too low.
While I have done very well over the last 23 years in this field, I would not recommend the investment in a CS degree alone to my children. Be an entrepreneur, doctor, plumber, electrician, nuclear engineer as your main profession.
CS is a useful SECONDARY profession because it gives you the tools to support your main endeavor.
Due to globalization the field is too unstable and vulnerable to be a main gig, IMO.
Copyright Infringement and Libel (Score:5, Interesting)
They're suing for copyright infringement as well as libel? Please tell me there's something more to the libel allegations than just the posting of the contract. Otherwise, they're either suing for libel over the posting of a legitimate document or suing for copyright infringement over a document they do not own.
Good way to end this BS (Score:5, Interesting)
More than that... What exactly is the site doing that would cause a takedown order for the whole domain? I mean, taking down a confidential company document is one thing... But to just issue an order to remove the domain entirely seems like too much.
But, I'm sure that when the sites come back up, they'll have even more readership.
I agree there was no reason to take down the entire domains. This really seems like it's becoming a standard tactic: put conditions into a legally binding contract, and then cry "copyright violation" when the contract is posted in public to the embarassment of its authors. An employment agreement is generally such a contract.
I propose a change to the law along these lines: your contract may be legally binding and public-domain, or it may be non-binding and copyrightable. You are, after all, asking a government agency (a public servant) such as a court of law to enforce it for you.
Re:Job Reclaimation, not creation. (Score:4, Interesting)
Executive Management are not going to move overseas. Executive Management are the people (in the U.S. anyway) that are making money off of outsourcing. They are making a killing off of it and they don't want to be Chinese wage slaves anymore than any of us do.
The argument for outsourcing is that it allows everyone over here to do "more important jobs," i.e. Management. The flaw in this argument is that not everyone can be Managers. Some of us aren't cut out for it and there are always going to be those not smart enough for it.
What are you going to do with the doers if all the "menial" work is outsourced? We better be thinking of answers. Some of us can create small businesses, but not everyone.
Re:H-1B is a Fraud (Score:4, Interesting)
If somebody can offer a service at a cheaper more efficient price, why not? All this humbug about salaries that one "deserves" to get is purely protectionist and doesn't benefit anybody. Offering cheaper overall inputs provide better value for all Americans to enjoy. If you're peddling global free trade, you've got to be willing to accept that labour needs to move freely and capitalism dictates that the person who can do it cheaper and offers an apple to apple comparison of quality will win. It's pure economics. If somebody can do something cheaper than you can, and is willing to do it, then there is nothing wrong with it.
I agree with this in theory. However, it's not the fact that there are a bunch of "Lazy Americans" (which there are plenty of hard working Americans BTW) who want their cake and be able to eat it too, it's the fact that the only commodity being banked on by companies are how to reduce salaries for the 97% of their worker base while the "Big C's" (CEO, CIO, CTO, CFO, etc..) keep their bonus' going up. It's about disparaging differences. I don't mind someone who has built a company up to keep a lions share, however, people with a backbone understand that without hardworking people in the company throughout the ranks, they would be no where and have no company. You are either Pimping or being Pimped now days.
Why doesn't any of this "globalization" affect health care? Where are my lower premiums or cost of health care when globalization is supposed to lower prices while raising service? I mean if you say it works for IT why not health care? Or how about food prices, they too are still going up even though there are many foods imported from all over the world. I guess your argument would be that they would be even higher if everything was left to grow only in the U.S. and sold in the U.S.
Re:copyright? confidential terms? (Score:4, Interesting)
Don't know why I'm responding to an AC, but ok...
I don't know what you mean trying to distinguish copyright from DMCA. DMCA is a particular batch of revisions to the copyright law. To pursue the matter under DMCA means exactly the same thing in the US as to pursue the matter under copyright.
If you would bother to RTFA, you would see that they are asserting copyright. TFA doesn't say whether they formally issued a DMCA takedown notice (as they would to properly suppress distribution of copyrighted material); my guess is that they did not. A DMCA takedown notice would not have resulted in the entire domain being shut down in any case. That was a separate matter related to the libel assertions.
It appears the copyright assertion is being used as grounds to find the identity of the person who posted the material - as in, "I want to know who did this so I can sue them".
Your comments on trade secrets, and your thoughts on which IP laws would cover contracts, have nothing to do with anything, so I assume you're just using them to try to sound smart in spite of being unable to discern that there is more than one legal issue being discussed in the article.
Re:getting myself a glass of iced tea (Score:2, Interesting)
Depends, does the DV program allow the worker to negotiate their salary and change jobs? If so, then I'd say the H-1B hurts more. The H-1B is, essentially, indentured servitude at below market rates that hurts local competition. My problem with H-1B is and has always been with the restrictions it imposes on the workers it imports. I am very PRO immigration. I believe it brings in the best and the brightest from around the world, but I want them to compete freely.
Re:H-1B is a Fraud (Score:3, Interesting)
Wrong. The recession happened because of a misallocation of resources due, in part, to excessive leveraging. It has absolutely zero to do with whence workers originate.
If you're looking for workers with a specific skill set, it's very easy to find a shortage. And if you're looking for workers whom you don't want to pay an outrageous amount just to do what amounts to menial labor, it's very easy to find a shortage.
Re:H-1B is a Fraud (Score:3, Interesting)
Usually they whine because "slightly outside of their comfort zone" in management-speak translates "boss asked me to solve the halting problem today" in geek-speak.
In my experience, programmers usually act that way because you've asked them to do something that they're not entirely convinced is possible, much less feasible, and they're dragging their heels because they aren't assertive enough to call you a moron to your face.
That said, there are people who refuse to do anything outside their job description. Usually, this attitude happens in union shops. If they see enough people acting that way around them, they're going to start acting the same way.
Re:Sold justice. (Score:3, Interesting)
Seriously, though, the ability to buy justice is not an attribute of free market capitalism, but crony capitalism. Free market capitalism has never been tried.
Re:getting myself a glass of iced tea (Score:5, Interesting)
On Dec. 23, Middlesex County Superior Court Judge James Hurley ordered firms that register domains...
How does a county judge in nowhere New Jersey have any jurisdiction over multiple companies that are not in his county? He can't order someone who lives in Bakersfield, CA arrested for knocking off a 7-11 in downtown LA. It has nothing to do with his jurisdiction.
DiscountASP.Net said it has disabled Endh1b.com after it received the order from the New Jersey Superior Court.
Is this the same court, or a state court of New Jersey? Regardless, the same question applies. GoDaddy's domain (whois) shows that they're in Arizona. How the hell does some random county or state judge in NJ have any authority over a company in Arizona? I'm not saying that APEX should have no recourse at all. They're entitled to be heard in a court of law, but shouldn't it have to be a court that actually has jurisdictional authority over the target (GoDaddy, DiscountASP, etc)
Re:First thoguht on RTFA (Score:3, Interesting)
What would you consider middle ground when it comes to harboring and/or supporting terrorists who plan to kill civilians in mass? Your government either allows them to base themselves in your country and protects them because they want them there or they do not want them there, and tries to remove them and asks for help if they are not capable of doing so.
What would you describe as the middle ground?
Re:Doesn't look like they got all of them. (Score:2, Interesting)
Yeah, yeah.
I'm not worried about the batshit crazy speech, because all reasonable people can see how batshit crazy it is.
I'm worried about the mildly crazy woo-woo speech, because some reasonable people can't see it for the falsehood that it is.
But yeah, okay fine, we're not trying to legislate it out of existence, we're trying to LAUGH it out of existence. Sadly, it's not working as well as we might hope.
Re:getting myself a glass of iced tea (Score:4, Interesting)
Here's one guy's description of the Apex Technology Group's H-1B agreement (from http://ripoffatapextgi.blogspot.com/ [blogspot.com] ):
The document at http://www.docstoc.com/ [docstoc.com] is not available any more. I assume it was the victim of a takedown request.
Once again, I want to make it clear that I am in favor of technical immigration (both to and from the U.S., for that matter) but it's these kinds of alleged abuses that have made it clear that the H-1B program is fundamentally flawed.
Re:First amendment (Score:3, Interesting)
Actually, the judge does have authority to do this as long as he's not making a prior-restraint action. In this case, the judge has found that the content on the webpages is prima facie defamatory, and needs be taken down until such time as a full look can be made at the content.
It is likely that this action was taken because the websites in question refuse to, or are unable to produce the identities of those individuals making the defamatory comments.
You also seem to lack knowledge about how the judicial system works, because in a Common Law system such as we have in the United States, the significant amount of what is "legal" was established by judges hundreds of years ago, not by any legislative body. That one can sue a company for a dangerous product? Judicial activism. Trials for embezzlement? Judicial activism. In the Common Law system, you're more likely than not to come across a law being based on "judicial activism" than it being original legislation.
If you want a court system where the highest court can only render one page summary conclusions about which legislatively-enacted law applies in this specific instance you'll need to move to France, or another continental European country.
Comment removed (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Good way to end this BS (Score:3, Interesting)
So there should be no privacy at all in any kind of legally binding arrangement?
Why argue such a ridiculous extreme? Why not say "so all weasels should be strangled?" or something equally unrelated.
As long as both parties wish to keep the agreement private, fine. Else, no. You can't hardly keep it a secret if you want to enforce it when your partner won't fulfill his end, now can you? Gonna take a labor agreement to the NSA Star Chamber Court? Tell 'em it's "National Security"?
Re:Good way to end this BS (Score:3, Interesting)
If you want my tax dollars to finance its enforcement, in the form of our court system, then no. There should be no privacy in a contract.
So all medical records of Medicaid/Medicare patients should be public?
How about medical records at hospitals that receive tax exempt status?
What about your mail, should it be made public (I doubt you want everyone knowing about your doll)?
Can your conversations be recorded in a car as long as you’re on a public road?
In all these cases the answer is no just because federal money is used does not mean that privacy is waived, and people have a right to protect that privacy. The copyright enforcement may not hold up since Apex is claiming that comments defamed them, they should be able to claim fair use because the original work was copied with the intent to criticize.
Re:H-1B is a Fraud (Score:2, Interesting)
My company hired me for a position that was vacant for more than 6-8 months because they couldn't find anyone qualified enough - irrespective of nationality. I've spoken with the HR and my immediate senior and they wouldn't have hired me, for MORE than what they were willing to pay anyone else to do the job.
I don't want to stereotype Indians but all of the ones that I've worked with are extremely talented. I have no doubt that you are worth your salt and then some. Americans that are unable to locate a job take offense at foreigners coming over and doing work that they are capable of doing, or so they think. The arguments that are made against the outsourcing of jobs are, for right or wrong, generalized into the arguments against the importing of workers. You will have a difficult time in convincing an unemployed American (or a citizen of any nation) that it is acceptable to bring in a foreigner to fill a position in times of high unemployment.
The original post is racist. You could debate it all day long but it clearly makes a distinction between Americans and Indians, and how one is somehow magically responsible for driving the salaries down, when he's doing nothing different than the other.
I would not debate that at all. I would however lean towards the word nationalism over racism due to the nature of the discussion even though they often go hand-in-hand.