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Comments: 277 +- Your Rights Online: EU About To Grant US Unlimited Access To Banking Data on Friday November 27, @11:33AM
Posted
by
kdawson
on Friday November 27, @11:33AM
from the not-too-swift dept.
from the not-too-swift dept.
background: url(//a.fsdn.com/sd/topics/topicprivacy.gif); width:71px; height:53px;
privacy
background: url(//a.fsdn.com/sd/topics/topicus.gif); width:80px; height:61px;
usa
An anonymous reader points out a blog post reporting that on Monday The EU Council is set to give US intelligence services full access to SWIFT banking data, despite a unanimous call by the European Parliament not to do so. "The move of SWIFT the data server to Switzerland would be an excellent opportunity to stop the nearly unlimited access of US authorities on EU bank transactions. But EU justice and interior ministers are apparently keen [on agreeing to] a deal as soon as possible, on 30 November. Why 30 November? Because one day later, on 1 December 2009, the EU’s Lisbon Treaty will be in force and would allow the European Parliament to play a major role in the negotiations of the deal with the US. A deal one day before will be a slap in the face to democracy in the EU. ... [W]hile the US will be able to access EU banking data, no access to US banking data by EU [authorities] is being foreseen."
Related Stories
Submission: EU to grant USA nearly unlimited access to all EU by Anonymous Coward
EU Committee Says No To Bank Data Sharing 156 comments
One person's error is another person's data.
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Prepare for 10,000 Accusations of ... (Score:5, Insightful)
Unexplainable transfers of cash into your account from $MUSLIM_STATE? Terrorist operative.
Bought floor tile from a man with the same surname as a well-known Taliban leader? Suspected terrorist.
etc.
I mean, I'm all for national security and sharing information but what is so lacking about the EU's ability to make and investigate the above claims?
Re:Prepare for 10,000 Accusations of ... (Score:4, Informative)
Oh really [guardian.co.uk]?
The Home Office received 95 extradition requests from the US between 1 January 2004 and 31 July 2009; 47 of these have taken place, with 36 ongoing, five withdrawn by the US and seven refused by UK authorities. The UK has made 42 extradition requests to the US during the same period; 27 of these have taken place, with 12 ongoing, three withdrawn by the UK and none refused. The numbers of requests made between the UK and its extradition partners are often unequal – Spain extradited 104 people to us between 2004 and 2008 and received 27 – but this signifies no imbalance in the governing arrangements.
I don't know about the rest of Europe, but that one data point makes me question what orifice that extradition 'fact' came from, no matter how truthy it sounds.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
I don't know about the rest of Europe, but that one data point makes me question what orifice that extradition 'fact' came from, no matter how truthy it sounds.
Well, good for you. Question away! In the time you took to write that post, you could have typed "US UK extradition treaty" into Wikipedia (or found the first link to it on Google), read up on the Extradition Act 2003, and discovered that what I wrote was fair and your statistics do nothing to refute it. Never mind, though, this is Slashdot, and it's far more fun to use the words "orifice" and "truthy" than to actually check facts anyway.
It is just me... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
Yes, I can see jacking around with the electrical and communications systems to disrupt things being put into place.
A thought has been bubbling up from the back of my mind for the past twenty or so years and continues to grown steadily. I live in an extremely corrupt nation.
Good? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Good? (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Excellent and Relevant! (Score:2)
MOST importantly the wiki page specifical
About Time! (Score:2, Insightful)
The tax cheats are going to have a much harder time when the want to park their money offshore. This is really good news.
Re:About Time! (Score:5, Insightful)
So US tax cheats get caught at the expense of EU privacy? F***ing s**t deal if you live in the EU. My transactions have got cock all to do with you.
And Americans wonder why everybody hates them.
Parent
Re:everyone doesn't hate Americans (Score:5, Insightful)
Huge difference. I'd be happy to come over to the place where the Americans live and spend some time there - if only that place didn't happen to be America.
Parent
Re:everyone doesn't hate Americans (Score:5, Interesting)
I'm American and I've traveled overseas quite a bit. I didn't run into a lot of hate.
I'm a euro and I spend a lot of time in the US. While staying there can be absolutely delightful on a superficial level (good food, wild nature, lots of space, polite yet informal people, clean cities), I've learned to keep my mouth shut, and just zone out whenever a discussion takes place. When asked for my opinion, I've learned to answer only in variations on 'dunno', 'uhm' and 'you're right'. When people ask where I'm from, I'll make up a word that may sound like a real place to avoid everything I do, say or think reflecting on an entire country. Anything short of blind devotion to all things American, and in fact disagreeing with an American may be taken as anti-American, ungrateful and arrogant and a reason to put you right back in your place. I don't encounter 'hate' much, but a lot of contempt. The sudden darkening of people's moods when the realization hits them 'wait a minute, this euro thinks he's an equal'.
Anyway, it can be avoided by playing the quiet type, sticking to superficial and / or work related subjects and let them blame your apparent lack of an opinion or ego on the years of communism in your native Molvania.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Yes, that's a big problem with them, the thinking that their way is the only one that can be. I travel a lot and also hang out on travel forums. The funniest I ever read there was from a fellow German living in Nicaragua. He said that the coast is overrun with American expats, who have been living there for ten or twenty years, don't know one word of Spanish and still demand that the locals speak their language. What a fucked up life that must be.
Re:About Time! (Score:5, Informative)
Is it worth catching corporate criminals at the cost of civil privacy?
Also, there are lots of ways around Taxation laws, legally, that require NO money off-shore. Using Charity receipts, holding companies, and company expenses, you can essentially cut your profits down so you don't get taxed as much while everything you want to purchase is owned by various companies (which you own but not directly).
It's kind of like you run company A, and Company B owns your car, Company C owns your house, Company D buys food, etc etc, and while the paper trail exists, theres nothing illegal about it. Shaw Communications (Cable company here in Canada) has mastered this technique. Yeah, the CEO is driving his Porsche around Calgary, but on paper he makes under 30k a year.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
You really think that's the intention? Are you so delusional that you think this is going to be used against the big tax cheats? The very same that fund the politicians that put these ideas into reality?
It's even worse than that (Score:5, Insightful)
They'll give access to all inter-bank transactions. The whole issue started with the revelation that US intelligence had access to SWIFT data through SWIFT's US data center. SWIFT then shifted its operation to its other data centers and will cease channeling EU transaction data through the US data center by the end of the year. So the loss of access for the US spies is the SWIFT data, but the treaty will give them access to all inter-bank transactions, even those which are not processed by SWIFT. This is a classic rebound technique: The EU cannot spy on its own citizens like that, but they do get information back from US spies.
Who's to blame? The US, for shamelessly exploiting the people they often call their friends? The EU council, for betraying their people? Why choose...
If this goes through on Monday, there will be calls to punish the EU Council for treason, but of course nothing will come of it.
Re:It's even worse than that (Score:5, Insightful)
If this goes through on Monday, there will be calls to punish the EU Council for treason, but of course nothing will come of it.
As far as I'm aware, the EU still takes more public money than any other organisation that has failed to produce audited accounts, and it's been doing so for more than a decade now. I think we can safely assume that they are above the law. And if they're not, as we've recently seen with the Lisbon treaty, they are quite capable of rewriting the law until they are, without needing any mandate from the people.
Parent
You scratch my back.. (Score:2)
How do you ask for a deal like this with a straight face, while not offering quid pro quo?
No really, I'd love to know how.
Re: (Score:2)
The usual.
Anyone still not think they're in the US Empire? (Score:4, Interesting)
The United States is so clearly the new Roman Empire that it makes it
almost cute that they keep denying it.
There is no clearer sign than this agreement that we are
officially living in a PAX AMERICANA in the 21st century.
I guess we better hope that the guy with the somewhat forced
smile is nice to us.
If the US wants to have jurisdiction over the populations of the
world though, wouldn't it be only fair ("all men are equal...")
to give citizens of the colonies (= world - China) a vote in the
US presidential election?
EU Has Finally and Completely Lost It (Score:5, Interesting)
As a US citizen, I say "WTF Europe -- are you insane?!"
I believe in the right of every country to protect their sovereignty, and this sound like a gigantic ceding of that sovereignty, and as egregious as the formation and delegation of power to the EU. The absolute best way to avoid tyranny on a massive scale is to ensure the distribution of power to the greatest extent possible. That's why I believe in states' rights, and why I believe Europe is being a bunch of asshats right now. I'm as patriotic as they come, but I understand the capability of anyone -- Americans as much as anyone else -- to become drunk with power. In the same spirit, I applaud that no American financial data will be given to Europe. At least they got it half right.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
The EU Council of Ministers is an unelected body of the usual group of money-grabbing power-hungry and our of touch morons who do whatever you want if you've got the cash. The EU parliament (which *is* an elected body) on the other hand, has thus far been pretty good at representing the wishes of its constituents and has managed to thwart the CoM's attempts to force through some corporate-sponsored legislation against the wishes of the citizenry on several occasions.
As much as I dislike the Lisbon Treaty, o
Re:EU Has Finally and Completely Lost It (Score:4, Informative)
I think you are confusing the Commission with the Council of Ministers. The Commission is completely unelected.
The Council of Ministers, as the name says, consists of ministers from the member states' governments. These ministers differ depending on the topic that's being discussed, but they're always ministers.
So unless your ministers are unelected (depending on the country either directly or indirectly), it's not really correct to describe them as "an unelected body of the usual group of money-grabbing power-hungry and our of touch morons who do whatever you want if you've got the cash."
That said, it is true that the Council is used a lot by member states to launder legislation that they would never even dare to propose in their own country. Later on they will then claim at home that they are obliged "by Europe" to implement these unpopular measures nationally, while they themselves are the reason that "Europe" does so.
The Lisbon Treaty also has a downside in this respect in that it makes many decisions require less stringent majorities (or a majority rather than unanimity). The result is that it takes more countries to oppose bad proposals, and generally that delegations will be less likely to even try to oppose something, because this costs political capital and there is less chance to win anyway.
Parent
IBAN ? (Score:4, Insightful)
As all of the EU can use IBAN for European transfers, I don't see the issue. The only reason we're still stuck with SWIFT is when making a transfer to/from outside the EU anyway, which invariably means US / Canada, in which case they already have access to the data.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Do you actually know anything about banking?
IBAN (International Bank Account Number) is only a consistent identification scheme for bank accounts so transfers can be processed with STP (straight-through processing, eg without manual intervention to fix spelling errors / typos / inconsistent punctuation - as a student I had that job in a bank). The actual transfers are made using TARGET (Trans-european Automated Real-time Gross settlement Express Transfer System). This is is based on SWIFT communications wit
Re:Banking INternationally (Score:4, Insightful)
Theres none good sides on it. Or why do you think US wont open their banking data back to EU?
It's just another case of USA forcing their laws, ideas and politics to other countries. Only taking, and not giving back. Fuck yeah! [youtube.com]
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Let me give you an example.
Consider this situation. Your best online friend has just bought a new computer game. It is an online MMO. Now, as a true fan of MMO's, you're intrigued. You want to know how it's like. But to do that, your friend asks you to order a pizza for him. You say, okay, I'll order one for myself aswell. You type in "pizza for a gamer" to google and find out this gre
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Service-Members'_Protection_Act [wikipedia.org]
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Of course they won't. It's just that our spineless politicians take the "good relationship" with the US a bit *too* serious.
Re: (Score:2)
What responsibility ? We never had any say in the European Constitution/Lisbon treaty
It's not fair to make us responsible for things we never voted for.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
I assume you are a European citizen.
Meaning you voted the wrong people into your own national and by consequence our European government.
The problem is , you only get the wrong ones , no matter what you choose for , because of the party system : you choose someone , but the party ultimately decides who gets to rule.
And because the worst people are best at fighting for their place (because they only care for themselves , not the people ) , they are the ones who get the office.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Too much censorship of the mass media, too much promotion of consumerism. Watching stupid shows on TV and buying the latest and greatest products is what we westerners are told will make us happy. Well, the happiest people on this planet (according to a statistic I don't remember the name of) are the Colombians. They live in a country ridden by fifty years of civil war and a significant part of the population working 15 hours a day so they can eat. And they still enjoy life more than everyone else on the pl
Re:Banking INternationally (Score:5, Informative)
Theres none good sides on it. Or why do you think US wont open their banking data back to EU?
It's just another case of USA forcing their laws, ideas and politics to other countries. Only taking, and not giving back. Fuck yeah! [youtube.com]
You may want to look into who provides a lot of the equipment, personnel and funding for U.N. and NATO peacekeeping forces. I think the US/EU relationship is pretty symbiotic. While the banking data probably won't be given to the EU, 'not giving back' is untrue.
I've looked into it. From Wikipedia: "About 4.5% of the troops and civilian police deployed in UN peacekeeping missions come from the European Union and less than one percent from the United States (USA)." The ten biggest troop contributors by country are 8 developing countries, France and Italy. Regarding UN troop funding - the reluctance and tardiness of the US to pay its UN contributions is legendary, and they are currently $1.3bn in arrears [wikipedia.org].
As to NATO troop contributions -- the US is making a lot of noise that the Europeans are not supporting their War of Terror "peacekeeping" missions in Iraq and Afghanistan enough; but they knew that they didn't have most EU countries' support when they set up to invade Iraq in the first place...
Parent
Re:Banking Internationally (Score:5, Funny)
+5, Brutal Fact Correction Smackdown. Rock on, dude.
Parent
Re:Banking INternationally (Score:4, Insightful)
I love how Iraq and Afghanistan are the same place whenever talk about not having EU support comes up.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Sorry, but even though the initial support was different, there are a lot of similarities. The US took the lead in attacking those countries, mainly for its own benefit. The US did not have a good (if any) plan what to do after the initial "victory". Both countries are important for oil and gas reserves (Afghan pipeline). In both countries the US had a very ruthless way of handling insurgents, making sure that most of the population is now anti US. Both countries had little to nothing to do (at least direct
Re:Banking INternationally (Score:5, Interesting)
True again, but that didn't change the perceived necessity of invading those countries (*). In fact, many European nations probably objected simply because they had figured out that the US was going to invade no matter what, so opposing the invasions let them gain political points domestically, avoid paying, and still get what they wanted. The reason things worked out that way was because Bush was a moron.
(*) I think both invasions were a mistake, but the people supporting them genuninely thought it was necessary at the time.
I think you'll find the reasons that the majority of Europeans (not European nations) were against those wars was because: (A) They were illegal under international law and (B) The ensuing wars would result in the deaths of hundreds of thousands, if not millions of innocent civilians who never did anything to us - amongst others. Any 'nation' or government who represented the views of their citizens were in fact just doing their job properly. There were notable examples of governments giving the finger to their electorate, such as the British government of the war criminal Tony B-Liar, but as a whole, the bigger part of the population of Europe was against the unnecessary murder of millions of civilians.
To date it hasn't been shown that any of the warmongers who started these illegal wars felt they were 'necessary' for any reason. They may have said they felt it, but these are proven liars, so the balance of probability lies with the idea that their claimed feelings over the matter were merely another lie, and that's even before you consider that mere 'feelings' about how you act do not usurp the law.
To deny this obvious state of affairs is shamefully naive and the reason these b*stards keep getting away with their crimes. I mean, COME ON PEOPLE!!!
Parent
Re:Banking INternationally (Score:4, Insightful)
Because they form the unholy alliance refusing full democratic power to the elected parliament and instead further the power of the commission (of governments).
But when the British tabloids are once again blasting 'Brussels' and it's 'unelected' bureaucrats they always forget about this little detail.
But then the rest of Europe knows who's behind these rags...
Parent
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
What's legal today might be illegal tomorrow. You don't think you'll end up on a list because you did what was legal when it was? Because, ya know, you did it before when it was legal, you might be doing it still when it's illegal...
Re:Banking INternationally (Score:5, Insightful)
Why should we HAVE to worry about The Authorities overseeing our each and every transaction, as if we're all criminals until proven otherwise??
As someone here put it, "If I've done nothing wrong, WHY ARE YOU WATCHING ME??"
Parent
Re:Banking INternationally (Score:5, Insightful)
Because it's not about doing wrong : it's about using fear as a means to control people.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Why should we HAVE to worry about The Authorities overseeing our each and every transaction, as if we're all criminals until proven otherwise??
I would reply at length to this comment... but Daniel J. Solove says it best in his essay:
"'I've Got Nothing to Hide' and Other Misunderstandings of Privacy" [ssrn.com]
Re:Banking INternationally (Score:4, Informative)
You, sir, combine ignorance and arrogance into one efficient package.
There was NO Lend-Lease material delivered to reds before 1942. None, Zero, Nada, Zilch.
In other words US materiel got forwarded to soviets after they proved to the world they could take everything nazis could thrown at them head on .. and scraped by the skin of their prick to not collapse.
Moreover the more significant part of the aid was actually in stuff like trucks, tires, railroad rails and so on. Soviet tanks, planes and arms were just better at nazi killing than the US counterparts of the time.
To wit, soviets made hell of a lot more germans die for the Vaterland than Amis.
[/offtopic]
Parent
Re: (Score:2, Funny)
Pizza is Italian.
There's no such thing as american pizza. Only american would-be pizza.
Re: (Score:2)
democracy? What is this democracy you say. I know about republic (for the good of the people; "for your own good"), but who has a democracy?
Switzerland?
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Ironically this will be used as an anti-EU story by the very same people who let it happen by rejecting the constitution last year. If the parliament had had this power last year, this wouldn't have happened. The people who complained that EU was not democratic enough, caused the EU remain that undemocratic, and rejected the attempts to improve it. At least, things will finally improve on tuesday.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
The EU Council doesn't give a shit about European Parliament. Seriously, Iran is probably a better democracy than the EU. Most if not all democratic elements of the EU organization do not have any real power.
People keep repeating this, but it's like saying NAFTA isn't a democracy. The EU is not a country, it's a group of independent countries that have agreed to stop protecting their internal market from each other. The EC is chosen by governments of the member countries, all of which are democracies. Ambassadors and diplomats are not elected representatives either.
Giving the European Parliament actual power and making the EU Council an actual government would amount to turning the EU into a federation, a singl
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
The EU ceased being simply about an internal market the moment they gained the power to legislate. Giving the EU parliament actual power is a hell of alot better than allowing government (not parliamentary) representatives to legislate and having unanimous control over international treaties. But that is of course not nearly enough, the central EU "government" has far too much power. IMO, any decision made by the EU should be subject to veto by any national parliament along with a (required) referendum in a
Do panic (Score:3, Interesting)
You should panic because :
Many european national traffic is going through SWIFT. (BE, UK, FR,......)
All the details are now mandatory in any wire transfer instructions,
All operations above 10.000 EUR must be made electronically
Bottom line : US and soon EU will be equiped with data to control financial fluxes and impose new taxes. (This is the real goal !)