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Comments: 571 +- Your Rights Online: Hacker McKinnon To Be Extradited To US on Thursday November 26, @05:58PM
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Vainglorious Coward writes "When UK hacker and Asperger's sufferer Gray McKinnon lost the judicial review of his case it seemed likely that he would be extradited to the US to face charges of hacking almost a hundred systems causing $700,000 worth of damage. Today the UK home secretary rejected his last-ditch attempt to avoid extradition adding that 'his extradition to the United States must proceed forthwith.' McKinnon's relatives are expressing concerns for his health, with his lawyer going so far as to claim that extradition would make the 43-year-old's death 'virtually certain.'"
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Good grief! (Score:5, Insightful)
...and Asperger's sufferer...
This has NOTHING to do with this issue.
Re:Good grief! (Score:5, Insightful)
Posting Dramatica articles is usually lame, but they're spot-on with that. Here's [blogspot.com] another famous Assperger's fuckup.
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Re:Good grief! (Score:5, Insightful)
The thing about Autism/Asperger's is that it's a spectrum of symptoms. Just like any other disorder (though I hesitate to call it a disorder, it's been mostly a blessing for me -- so "difference" would be more appropriate) not everyone who has it exhibits exactly the same symptoms.
Another thing to keep in mind is that the lack of non-verbal communication goes both ways: not only do people on the spectrum tend to miss non-verbal cues, but they also tend to have a bit of a flat affect. It's not intentional, but unfortunately people often take it for coldness. After repeated misunderstandings a lot of aspies just put up a wall.
I invite the reader put yourself in our shoes for a moment. How would you feel if there were a channel of information that most everyone you meet knows is there, but you just can't catch. Wouldn't that make you anxious? And depressed if you couldn't gather up the courage to make new friends or tried and failed because of misunderstandings?
People on the spectrum don't necessarily need extra help to get along. Maybe a little more direct verbal or written communication, and a little empathy. But that's something that all humans could use, if you ask me.
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Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
If I was his defense attorney, it sure the hell would.
Re:Good grief! (Score:4, Informative)
Except that his condition was the central issue in his judicial review [ibtimes.com] so it has plenty to do with this. I was initially going to write "alleged Asperger's sufferer" - would that have made you happier?
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Re:Good grief! (Score:4, Informative)
Actually it does. Many people on the autistic spectrum do not respond well to changes in their environment and absolutely must have a high level of control over their environment. Extradition will be a double whammy for him. It creates a special hardship that (again depending on just where he is on the spectrum) could be considered no less cruel and unusual than it would be to put a non-suffere in a room with a painfully loud siren and strobe lights 24/7
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Re:Good grief! (Score:4, Insightful)
Have you ever met anyone on the autistic spectrum?
I *lived* with someone with aspergers.
It taught me that someone can be a total and utter CUNT without actually being malicious about it.
NEVER AGAIN. Never a-fucking-gain would I want to live with someone with the aspergers affectation.
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Re:Yeah just ignore the science (Score:5, Informative)
Please don't compare natural sciences with social sciences so freely. There are certainly biological indicators supporting the Autism diagnosis, particularly the old studies of monozygotic twins raised apart. I haven't heard any extremely strong neurophysiological evidence about it, however. This guy's paper seems to sum that up as well: http://www.mattababy.org/~belmonte/Publications/Papers/98_Garreau/ [mattababy.org] . I think this guy has real concerns as a layman about the underlying causes of Asbergers. I think he is quite incorrect in that. But it has nothing to do with him completely dismissing science, and making that argument is disingenuous. That is not to say that I have any real insight into the issue either, of course. All I am saying, is quit running your mouth off.
So you haven't heard of any strong neurophysiological basis for Aspergers. Well I guess then it just does't exist. Silly me for running me mouth off and looking at the scientific literature. Seriously maybe you should research the literature first. hmmm?
Ok well to get you started:
Neurophysiological evidence for cortical discrimination impairment of prosody in Asperger syndrome. Neuroscience Letters, Volume 383, Issue 3, 5 August 2005, Pages 260-265
T. Kujala, T. Lepistö, T. Nieminen-von Wendt, P. Näätänen and R. Näätänen
Neurophysiological responses to face, facial regions and objects in adults with Asperger's syndrome: An ERP investigation. International Journal of Psychophysiology, Volume 63, Issue 3, March 2007, Pages 283-293
Kate O'Connor, Jeff P. Hamm and Ian J. Kirk
The neurophysiological correlates of face processing in adults and children with Asperger’s syndrome
Brain and Cognition, Volume 59, Issue 1, October 2005, Pages 82-95
Kate O’Connor, Jeff P. Hamm and Ian J. Kirk
Abnormal imitation-related cortical activation sequences in Asperger's syndrome
Nobuyuki Nishitani, Sari Avikainen, Riitta Hari
Annals of Neurology
Volume 55, Issue 4 , Pages558 - 562
2004 American Neurological Association
Here is the abstract for this one:
Abstract
Subjects with Asperger's syndrome (AS) are impaired in social interaction and imitation, but the underlying brain mechanisms are poorly understood. Because the mirror-neuron system (MNS) that matches observed and executed actions has been suggested to play an important role in imitation and in reading of other people's intentions, we assessed MNS functions in 8 adult AS subjects and in 10 healthy control subjects during imitation of still pictures of lip forms. In the control subjects, cortical activation progressed in 30 to 80-millisecond steps from the occipital cortex to the superior temporal sulcus, to the inferior parietal lobe, and to the inferior frontal lobe, and finally, 75 to 90 milliseconds later, to the primary motor cortex of both hemispheres. Similar activation sites were found in AS subjects but with slightly larger scatter. Activation of the inferior frontal lobe was delayed by 45 to 60 milliseconds and activations in the inferior frontal lobe and in the primary motor cortex were weaker than in control subjects. The observed abnormal premotor and motor processing could account for a part of imitation and social impairments in subjects with AS.
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Re:What about schizophrenia? (Score:4, Interesting)
All of those disorders exist in a smooth gradiation from severe psychological problem to simple personality trait, and in the majority of cases they're probably closer to the latter. When a geek is introverted, it may be a mild case of Asperger's, but that truly gives you no better or more useful diagnoses than 'smart and introverted' once did. It may indeed be more harmful, because such a diagnoses tends to remove one's personal accountability for correcting the condition... and mild cases of all those behaviors can often be corrected by simple personal growth and mindful behavior.
Obviously, those conditions exist, and in severe cases really do call for specialized treatment. However, the vast majority of self-proclaimed Asperger's sufferers have it in no significant degree, and I suspect they are using it as a sneaky egoboost ("Asperger's may be asocial, but they're really smart") or as an excuse ("you don't want me to talk at the meeting, I'm asperger's"). Both are harmful.
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Re:Good grief! (Score:4, Insightful)
Why would it be inappropriate to prosecute him in Britain, where the crime actually took place?
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Re:Good grief! (Score:4, Informative)
The "huge damages" he caused where the fact that the US Army had to change their ridiculous unsafe passwords to something safe. The US Army just cannot admit that an amateur looking for UFOs didn't hack into their computers, but just managed to _guess_ dozens of passwords. So they have to throw the book at him to safe face.
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Re:Good grief! (Score:5, Insightful)
It's not irrelevant when you're talking about the "huge damages", like the GP did. And the damages are particularly important since you wouldn't extradite someone otherwise.
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Re:Good grief! (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes, it is.
But here's the thing, they're not just saying he trespessed. Nobody denies that. They're saying he caused 700k worth of damage, and that part is just nonsense. It's like if broke into your house, fell asleep on your bed, and left in the morning. You might figure out I was there, realize you should probably put some locks on your doors and maybe get an alarm system.
Yes, in that scenario, I certainly broke the law -- but you don't get to claim I caused 3000 dollars worth of damage because it cost you 3000 dollars to put a lock on the door and get a security system. You should have had those things anyways.
Asperger's is not a defense -- but 700k worth of damage? Give me a break.
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Re:Good grief! (Score:5, Funny)
700k of damages would be 700,000 dollars worth of meetings, reviews, reports and studies about what happened, why it happened and how to keep it from happening again. Plus the time of the investigation.
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Re:Good grief! (Score:5, Insightful)
And to say that if he "sold the information then lives could have been lost" is alarmist bullshit. Even military with mandatory OPSEC briefings and security clearances wouldn't believe that garbage (now, if we were at full-scale war with China or Russia then it'd be a different story altogether -- and c'mon, even the ACTA is being obscured on the grounds of "national security"). It's clear that they guy never intended to give our sekrits to terr'rists. The pentagon's just pissy that some nutcase exposed a goatse-esque security hole and now we want to make an example of him. Our government is behaving like a bunch of vengeful, steroid-addled, UFC-watching goons. Extradition is overkill in this particular case.
The aspie and the American government are in a cute little contest to see who can out-douche the other. I'm going to laugh if the aspie fights this and wins it.
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Re:Good grief! - Bend Over! (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:Good grief! - Bend Over! (Score:5, Insightful)
Sorry, it's more like someone going into people's homes while they're out if they left a door unlocked. It's trespass, it's an invasion of privacy, but there are no grounds for claiming that the person caused massive damage just by entering or leaving a note on the table. And if it's a business, bank or government building, whoever was responsible for security should get in more trouble for the intrusion than the person who committed an act of trespass.
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Re:Good grief! - Bend Over! (Score:5, Funny)
I'm sorry, did you just compare a "secure" military network controlled by the most powerful nation in the world to a defenseless little old lady?
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Re:Good grief! - Bend Over! (Score:5, Insightful)
"He tried to quench that 'thirst' by breaking in to a highly sensitive military computer network directly or indirectly depended on by many people in harms way every day. Sounds a hell of a lot like it SHOULD fall under terrorism laws."
Holy batcaves Batman. Whiskey Tango Foxtrot! Let's start with a definition of Terrorism:
terrorism - The calculated use of violence (or the threat of violence) against civilians in order to attain goals that are political or religious.
or, how about Terrorist:
terrorist - a radical who employs terror as a political weapon; usually organizes with other terrorists in small cells.
Now, please explain exactly how what he did is in ANY way associated with terrorism. No really. Some morons are modding you up as interesting and you are not even close to the mark here.
strike
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Re:Good grief! (Score:5, Insightful)
not the US punishment system, that's for sure. Last time there was a high profile extradition from the UK to the US (the Natwest 3) when they arrived, they weren't tried. They were released on obscene bail, required to stay in the Houston area, and had to find work to support themselves and their legal defence for OVER A YEAR, and eventually accepted a plea bargain because they couldn't support any attempt to actually fight the charges.
Now, how is someone who is unemployable supposed to support themselves, their legal defence, and medical bills? I reckon that he'll have a breakdown within a week.
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Impossible to get a fair trail (Score:5, Insightful)
I never understand how you can have extradition without financial support for the defendant - otherwise it's impossible to get a fair trial.
As the previous poster pointed out, how is this guy supposed to support himself if he makes bail? How the heck is he supposed to pay for health insurance?
If someone is already clinically depressed how are they going to survive in very hostile climate in a foreign country with absolutely no support system? What about if someone has a mortgage in their home country, how will they afford to keep on making payments? What about student loans and credit card debt?
If we are going to take the concept of extradition + a fair trial seriously I suggest:
1. Upon extradition you are given financial aid to pay for initial legal and cultural advice.
2. A grant to pay for health insurance
3. Help finding a job, housing etc with interim financial help.
If at the end of it you are found NOT guilty then you are given compensation for losing your career, home, credit rating, friends in your home country (ie having your whole life permanently f***ed up) and the opportunity to keep your current job in the new country.
Additionally if the UK is going to extradite mentally ill people then facilities have to be provided for proper mental health treatment and rehabilitation - not the current bs that is the US prison system. Also if this guy needs extra help because he is mentally ill then the US government should pay for friends and relatives to come and visit him on a regular basis.
Also a guarantee should be given that the person being extradited will not be raped or beaten up in prison.
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Re:The Vengeful crazies (Score:5, Insightful)
...see the Eighth Amendment of the US constitution
What is this "Constitution?" And if it's so important, why does it have amendments?
Signed,
The PATRIOT Act, DMCA, the RIAA, and the courts.
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Re:The Vengeful crazies (Score:5, Interesting)
He stands little or no chance of a fair trial. Where does a foreigner get money for a lawyer while getting a new job, while paying his previous mortgage, loans and somehow finding health insurance all at the same time? And while he is clinically depressed and feeling suicidal.
And then he stands to get 70 years in prison (the feds are really gunning fro him - they have said as much) for hacking into the pentagon system and in a maximum security prison - he might as well be summarily executed. It would be more merciful.
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Re:The Vengeful crazies (Score:5, Informative)
As to why Asperger's suffering has to do with it. Ever tried to live as one? It ain't easy; particularly the tendency to focus on one thing trait means that it is very easy to not realise what is going on around you. And also the trait to accept as truth the first information on something and to reject new information on that subject (the trait of not liking/being unable to stand change) - even if the new information is correct.
Also, if the recent increase in violence is being blamed on video games, consider that the film War Games does a nice job of glamorizing breaking into a computer system and shows that breaking into computer systems for non-malicious reasons is ok. (Not saying that he's seen the film, but if he has, his logic tells him that there is no problem with cracking into a computer system looking for innocent information - he'll be glorified at the end of it.)
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Re:The Vengeful crazies (Score:5, Insightful)
Unjust extradition? Since when? If he committed a crime against the people of another country. Why should he be immune from trial by jury just because he did it remotely
In general, very few countries are willing to extradite their own citizens. Including the US. And, in fact, sending people to the US is worse than most other places as the constitution only applies to citizens. This is how the US have been able to detain and torture prisoners in Guantanamo, without verdict.
The normal way to try him, would be in the UK - why aren't they doing that?
Also, where was the crime committed? If I publish a critical article about e.g. China, should I be tried by Chinese laws? Norwegian laws? Or the US, if the servers happened to be there.
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Re:The Vengeful crazies (Score:4, Informative)
US Supreme Court decides if its Cruel and Unusual.
In Furman v. Georgia, 408 U.S. 238 (1972), Justice Brennan wrote, "There are, then, four principles by which we may determine whether a particular punishment is 'cruel and unusual'."
The "essential predicate" is "that a punishment must not by its severity be degrading to human dignity," especially torture.
"A severe punishment that is obviously inflicted in wholly arbitrary fashion."
"A severe punishment that is clearly and totally rejected throughout society."
"A severe punishment that is patently unnecessary."
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Hypocrisy (Score:5, Insightful)
The crime took place on British soil. Why is he being extradited?
Or, if you want to take the view that the servers were on US soil, why have people posting to US servers been prosecuted in Britain for hate speech? You can't have it both ways.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Because unfortunately our government overlords are attached to the rear of your government overlords.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Because he admits to hacking into computer systems in the USA. So why shouldn't he be extradited?
Re:Hypocrisy (Score:4, Insightful)
The funny thing about jurisdiction is that traditionally it is based on where the crime took place. Nowadays it seems to be a matter of convenience.
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Telemurder (Score:5, Interesting)
The funny thing about jurisdiction is that traditionally it is based on where the crime took place. Nowadays it seems to be a matter of convenience.
But where did the crime take place? Consider someone who stood inside France and shot an arrow into Germany. That arrow strikes a Kraut and kills them. Did the murder occur in France or in Germany?
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Re:Hypocrisy (Score:4, Insightful)
It's often the case that the most stringent standard is applied against the individual. So you can be prosecuted for being a breaking US federal law while being outside the USA and not a citizen of the USA and yet not have a say in what the law is in the USA. Then you get denied the benefit of the law in the USA - eg posting so called hate speech on the USA server while in the UK.
If the basis of law is consent of the governed and one who is governed never has a chance to give their consent it makes the whole concept of the 'rule of law' a farce. (I think if you are being extradited ot the USA for a crime not committed in the USA you should be able to vote while awaiting trial and given all the rights of a citizen.)
And of course if you are foreigner trying to visit the USA, then you can be treated like shit and deported. No right to work - crap all. So when the government wants to treat you like someone who belongs in the USA they can and when they want to treat you like an alien they can.
You also have to ask by what right does country x have to prosecute person 'a' for an action taken in country y. The person was not in the jurisdiction of country x when the crime was committed.
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Re:Hypocrisy (Score:4, Interesting)
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Re:Hypocrisy (Score:5, Insightful)
This assumes that the crime took place in Britain: a laughable proposal. It is true that the person doing the deed was in Britain at the time, but the damages were done on US soil. As others have mentioned, if you were to stand just on one side of your country's border and shoot into a neighboring country, killing someone on the other side, the crime would be said to have taken place there. Same story here: the damage was done on US soil, therefore the crime took place in the US. That the criminal happened to be in a different nation at the time is irrelevant.
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So let's just forget about a fair trial! (Score:5, Insightful)
If you don't live in the USA you hardly stand much a chance of getting fair trial if you are extradited. Firstly you need money for a private attorney if you want a real shot at a fair trial (public defenders are a joke most of the time; innocent people go to jail all the time - just look at he innocence project). And you are not allowed to work while you are awaiting trail in the USA further guaranteeing you getting screwed over. You are not familiar with the legal system - again another nail in the coffin of obtaining a fair trial. And consider that you don't know anyone to turn to for advice. And then you have to consider cultural factors - a jury in the USA is going to be less sympathetic to a foreigner.
Of course in this case its even worse - what he did would be a lesser crime in the UK. Why someone should subject to a foreign countries laws while doing something that is not in that foreign county amazes me. We don't give foreigners the vote so why should they be subject to our laws when not in our country. Let him be subject to British laws and let the British system deal with him (ie for his hacking).
He also has Asperger's Syndrome and this form of autism could really be a stress factor leading to suicude. A trial in a foreign country is no small deal. The whole thing stinks.
Re:So let's just forget about a fair trial! (Score:5, Insightful)
In your example, the actual crime would be launching the missile, which happened where? Britain. In the real case, the crime was sending malicious instructions to a computer, which happened where? Britain.
In both cases, the appropriate action would be to prosecute in Britain. You know, where the crime took place.
Have you ever made a comment on a web site that could offend a religious group? Better hope the server wasn't located in Ireland, because that's illegal there, and you could be extradited. Ever criticised the Chinese government? Better hope the server wasn't located in China. And so on.
Basically, this sets a really, really bad precedent.
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Awesome job! (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Awesome job! (Score:4, Informative)
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Re:Awesome job! (Score:4, Funny)
His name is Gary, not Gray. Stellar editing as always, slashdot staff.
If it helps, I think that for most, proper editing on Slashdot may be a gray area, while for others it's certainly grey. I don't know who Stellar is.
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Extradition to countries that practice torture? (Score:5, Insightful)
I though there was a UN convention that prohibited extradition to countries that practice torture or won't give a person due process. Given the US recent track record on torture and the probability that he will be tried in a military court it should be fairly easy to get his extradition cancelled. But then again, the US and the UK are not all that much different and if closer together would probably become a single country. Maybe he should appeal to the EU court for the protection of Human Rights in Geneva and he probably will. This dude will be in prison for a very long time.
Re:Extradition to countries that practice torture? (Score:4, Insightful)
Oh that's ok then - as long as everyone else is doing it too it must be all right for us to!
Sorry, that excuse doesn't work in the playground, it sure as shit shouldn't work now.
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$700,000 (Score:5, Insightful)
That figure is the alleged cost of upgrading the security of these systems after the attack, not the result of any 'damage' that he may have caused. I'm not in any way condoning what he has done and Asperger's is no excuse but the desktops that he accessed were often Internet facing with blank or weak administrator passwords, seems to me like there should be some sysadmins on trial with him for gross negligence.
My analogy (no car sorry) would be that it's like a robbed bank having to spend $700,000 on a vault after realising that keeping the money in wooden boxes in the back yard is inadequate.
Is he immortal? (Score:5, Funny)
Disgusting, gross injustice (Score:4, Insightful)
Justice would mean him being tried in the UK, just like any other UK citizen. Now he is going to get 60 years in the for-profit American prison industry for guessing a few passwords. For an example of how people with Asperger's are treated there, see the Billy Cotrell case [laweekly.com].
The US would sooner start a war than extradite one of their own to another country, even for war crimes [wikipedia.org]. One-sided extradition treaties give the US legal jurisdiction over Europe but not vice versa. We Europeans are pussies. We've truly let ourselves become satellite states of the Empire of the United States of America.
Re:UK citizen? (Score:4, Insightful)
I have not read much on this case, from skimming his wikipedia page
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_McKinnon [wikipedia.org] ...it seems he is a UK citizen, right? Why would the UK extradite a citizen to the US? If it were the other way around I think an extradition would be very unlikely.
I honestly don't understand why so many people think he shouldn't be extradited. The way most extradition treaties work is if you commit a crime in or against a country with which you have an extradition treaty, and if that crime is also a crime in your home country, then you are extradited. I think Britain has hacking laws, so this seems fairly clear cut. Why do so many people have a problem with extraditing him? Is it because you think hacking shouldn't be a crime, or what?
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Re:UK citizen? (Score:5, Insightful)
People have an issue with this because if convicted in America he will face the rest of his life (however long or short it may be) languishing in a high security American prison. In the UK we do at least give the majority of our prisoners the chance of rehabilitation.
The above comment disregarding the fact that a US jury is almost certainly likely to be biased against a foreigner; his inability to qualify for any capable legal aid; and an unfamiliarity with the US legal system seems to me an excellent reason to allow him to be tried at home. I imagine that they're also looking to try him under a terrorism-related charge, which is patently not what he set out to achieve.
However, this is now boiling down to a deeper issue of a massive disparity between the number of people extradited from the UK to the USA and vice-versa. I daresay the bulk of this is due to the fact that we do in fact harbour more potential terrorists, but at least some part of it is due to a government that just rolls over and takes it up the arse.
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Re:UK citizen? (Score:5, Insightful)
The reason the waters are so muddy is because some of McKinnon's supporters have made Aspergers out to be something that it is not; a get out of jail free card of some kind. Contrary to what some of McKinnon's supporters might think, it does not in any way make it conceivable that McKinnon did not know right from wrong or understand the potential consequences of his actions. The only thing is does is mean that he has some legitimate medical and psychological requirements that the US must be able to meet before the extradition can proceed, and since those are pretty easy to meet then, barring intervention from the EU, it's a done deal.
Personally, I think McKinnon's defense team royally screwed up. Once he had admitted his guilt and the Asperger's diagnosis was made, they should have used that to press for a trial in the UK, against UK laws and sentencing guidelines, with any sentence also being served in the UK. Both sides could have said that justice had been done, and McKinnon would have got off with a slap on the wrist and at worst a short sentence in a minimum security prison with time off for good behaviour, and quite possibly at the weekends as well. All this would have been over years ago, and he'd have probably made a small fortune out of selling his story to the tabloids and publishing an auto-biography by now.
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Re:UK citizen? (Score:5, Informative)
It was a US Marine plane. A USMC EA-6B Prowler, BuNo 163045, from VMAQ-2 caused the Cavalese cable-car disaster on 3 February 1998, accidentally cutting the cables of a ski-lift in Italy during a low level flight in mountainous terrain and killing 20 civilians.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cavalese_cable-car_disaster [wikipedia.org]
"Italian prosecutors wanted the four Marines to stand trial in Italy, but an Italian court recognized that NATO treaties gave jurisdiction to U.S. military courts. They stood trial, were found not guilty and the pilot and copilot were kicked out of the Marines. One served time in military prison.
The two men were court-martialed a second time for obstruction of justice and conduct unbecoming an officer and a gentleman, because they had destroyed a videotape recorded from the plane on the day of the accident. They were found guilty in May 1999; both were dismissed from the service and the pilot received a six month prison term. He was released after four and a half months for good behavior.
By February 1999, the victims' families had received $65,000 per victim as immediate help by the Italian government, which was reimbursed by the U.S. government. In May 1999, the U.S. Congress rejected a bill that would have set up a $40 million compensation fund for the victims. In December 1999, the Italian legislature approved a monetary compensation plan for the families ($1.9 million per victim). NATO treaties obliged the US government to pay 75% of this compensation, which it did."
So...Italy let them go, there were trials, one was found guilty of something, tossed in prison, career destroyed, felon, all that and the families got 1.965 million US each.
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Re:Death? (Score:5, Informative)
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Re:I don't get it.. (Score:4, Insightful)
If Obama really wanted to distance himself from bush's policies, he'd pardon McKinnon. This extradition is doing nothing but stirring up anti-American feelings in the UK whilst being ridiculed in the US.
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