The trial we discussed this spring has come to a verdict, and
reader lugannerd was one of several to note a milestone in the fight against the Church of Scientology. "The French branch of the Church of Scientology was convicted of fraud and fined nearly $900,000 on Tuesday by a Paris court. But the judges did not ban the church entirely, as the prosecution had demanded, saying that a change in the law prevented such an action for fraud. The church said it would appeal. The verdict was among the most important in several years to involve the controversial group, which is registered as a religion in the United States but has no similar legal protection in France. It is considered a sect here, and says it has some 45,000 adherents, out of some 12 million worldwide. It was the first time here that the church itself had been tried and convicted, as opposed to individual members."
Well a 900k fine isn't going to be much. These guys have armies of members that fling money at that them. The best thing of this story is the bad press (though people say there is no such thing) given their army of lawyers I don't imagine this will ever hit main stream media, at least here in the states.
While that may be true outside France, inside France things are a little murkier. Now that they have been convicted of fraud they have to be careful since now a lot of the people who gave them money can probably get it back. Paying the fine might not be a problem but continuing to raise funds might.
That mask represents a pushback against Scientology's censorship and abuse of the legal process. Feel free to read more about it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Chanology [wikipedia.org] You don't have to agree with all of it to accept that freedom of speech is good and censorship is bad
A long, long time ago Scientology were the first people to force/. to remove a post for content reasons. Still in the FAQ, I think. Suffice it to say the editorial team still put up schadenfreudist stories whenever something bad happens to them.
How much is a whetstone bridg.. errr.. "Thetan Detector" reading going for nowadays? They'll just tell their culti.. err.. members that they all need to come in for a refresher scan at $100 a pop because this incident might have caused a Thetan eruption and Xenu might be now able to come out from behind the moon in his ship, so they have to monitor galvanic respons.. sorry.. THETAN levels more carefully for a while.
Confirmed. An ex girlfriend on mine used to work at Wells Fargo Bank. The CO$ has literally dozens, if not hundreds, of individual accounts with more than several million deposited in each. I'll bet this is not their only back either. They have a shitload of cash for lawyering up.
Must be nice to be able to lie to stupid people, in the name of an imagined deity, to confiscate their savings. I have a conscious and can't imagine the worthless people who can pull that off. All religions suck, especially the fake ones.
A spokeswoman for the church, Agnès Bron, called the verdict "an Inquisition for modern times."
Help me out here, which Inquisition [wikipedia.org] are you trying to draw a parallel to?
In all of the most popular ones I think it was the several hundreds (possibly thousands) of individuals being persecuted for not believing Roman Catholicism (the popular religion). Crazy Catholic tribunals prosecuting people on arcane doctrine! Usually resulting in the end of their life or excommunication. Now the current situation is the government of France in a single instance finding the Church of Scientology guilty of fraud. Was there anything to do with religious doctrine in this case? Because I thought fraud was fraud whether you're the pope or Richard Dawkins! And the result is a paltry sum of $900,000 that is -- what? -- 1/7th of what it cost Tom Cruise to get to his last level of clairvoyance?
To reiterate, you're not being persecuted for your beliefs but instead your finances... which sound more like extortion through coercion to me than anything else.
Go ahead and use this to try to appeal to people with a persecution complex. If they have one, they won't find more persecution anywhere else than your ranks. I'm glad that sane people -- when hassled by you -- can now be informed that your accounting practices in France have been legally decried as fraud!
I'm no fan of mainstream or historical religions either, and agree with nearly all of what you said. But:
So what draws this clear line for you between Scientology and "actual religion"? I'd really like to know.
Scientology refuses to even tell you what they believe without you spending large amounts of money. If you "convert", you do so without any knowledge or even opportunity to examine their beliefs. The beliefs, such as they are, are not revealed until after you've emptied your bank account for them.
Pretty much all "actual religions" are happy -- overeager, even -- to tell you what they believe. Their holy books are publicly available. Only this one charges you many thousands of dollars to learn what your own religion's beliefs are if you convert.
Christianity, with its history of inquisitions, crusades, witch burnings, pogroms, blood libel, financial parasitism, subjugation of women, repression of science, burning of scientists at the stake, abandonment of adherents, and general pillage... isn't a dangerous cult? Really?
Yeah! And white people, with their history of colonialism, slavery, pillage, and rape of minorities need to be locked away as well. Because the sins of ones ancestors are exactly the same as acts committed today!
Christianity is no different from any other major religion in the horrors it has created, and it's no different from modern, secular, state-scale cultural/political forces like state communism or nationalism. It turns out that when we humans band together in large groups around a shared system of beliefs and cultural identity, we have an overwhelming tendency to act like murderous, condescending assholes to everyone else. Religion is just the form we're most familiar with due to the short time-period that widespread secularism has been in existence.
Personally, while I think Scientology is a pretty dangerous organization today, I'm not too worried about their future. Scientology today is just kind of like LDS church was 100 years ago -- feeling persecuted and justified in lashing out at its critics. They don't face the same kind of (often violent) persecution the LDS church did, and their ways are really out of touch with modern society's opinions on "asshatery in the name of faith," but give it a century, and they may well turn into model citizens. Doesn't really mean that they're not a group to watch out for in the meantime, though.
Yeah! And white people, with their history of colonialism, slavery, pillage, and rape of minorities need to be locked away as well. Because the sins of ones ancestors are exactly the same as acts committed today!
No. But any attempt at colonialism, slavery, pillage, torture, misogyny, class-ism, caste, and rape needs to be stepped upon. More directly, any organization that espouses these ideals needs to be stepped upon. The flaw in your idea there is that people, white or otherwise, are not the same as religion. Religion equates to things like the KKK; long-extant organizations that have formalized goals which have not changed in any significant manner, and a history of doing profound evil to pursue those goals (and sometimes, as with the KKK, goals that are themselves evil.)
You'll note that the KKK is not a reason to pillory current white people, and likewise, the tenets of religion are not a reason to pillory current people, even if religious - they are reason to pillory *religion*. The organization is responsible for the evil done at its behest and encouragement. You don't take that responsibility away by saying "well, they did that *yesterday*, so it doesn't matter any longer." It bloody well does. Because the organization isn't its own descendant: It's the *same entity*.
For instance, the US government is still responsible for jailing US citizens of Japanese ethnicity during WWII. Because it's the same organization. The responsibility doesn't go away when the legislators change seats. Sure, those original legislators are guilty too, and sure, modern legislators didn't cause the problem, but they are *still* responsible for the consequences, because they represent the organization, and the responsibility accrues to the organization. If they don't want to deal with the acts of the government, they shouldn't be in government. Any religion is exactly the same. So the atrocities of the crusades matter. The witch burnings matter. Galileo's imprisonment matters. Also, these things tell us what the religion will do if it has the freedom to do so. In the US, at least, we've managed to trim back access to such powers by separating church from state. Somewhat. Although lately, they've been making some very unfortunate gains back.
In any case, it isn't the sins of the ancestors that are the concern here: It is the fact that the religion instructed them to commit those sins, and that the religions have not changed a great deal from those days. Society has changed around them -- religion no longer officially serves as high level political authority right in the middle of the power structure -- but that doesn't mean that they aren't responsible when aircraft are flown into buildings, clinics are blown up, suicide bombers walk into crowds, or laws are made restricting the actions of the general public to those the religions think are "ok." Your assertion that religions of today are innocent of the kinds of motivations and acts we have seen in the past is simply unsustainable, no matter if made directly, or with a failed analogy, as above.
Your analogy breaks down immediately because an ancestor is a unique individual acting on their own; a religion is a still-extant entity that was, and is, acting on its own, using the same precepts it always has, and so is still culpable. They know it, too... just look at the apology for Galileo's imprisonment. Centuries later. Why? Because it's still the same Catholic church. The pope wasn't apologizing for the sins of an ancestor; he was apologizing for the sins of his organization. He's saying "we screwed up based on our beliefs", and I'm saying, "keep watching those idiots, they still believe the same stupid things and are the same stupid organization."
Christianity is no different from any other major religion in the horrors it has created
Oh, I agree completely. Except for Scientology. Thus far. They're young, I'm pretty sure they'll find a way. Look how quickly the Heaven's Gate saucer religion managed to get people killed. Scientology's just a little retarded, that's all. They'll probably find a reason. Xenu and all.
No. But any attempt at colonialism, slavery, pillage, torture, misogyny, class-ism, caste, and rape needs to be stepped upon. More directly, any organization that espouses these ideals needs to be stepped upon.
Of course. No one sane would disagree -- unless it was their own group doing it. (See post-Abu Ghraib acceptance of torture in the US and support for firebombing Cambodia during Vietnam before and after we started doing it.) Humans are frighteningly good at rationalizing away the evil of their own groups.
The flaw in your idea there is that people, white or otherwise, are not the same as religion.
Well, yes and no. Race is but one arbitrary line to draw between people, but it's an extremely important one because tied to the core evolutionary trait that drives most human conflict -- social hierarchies and the instinctual drives needed to facilitate competition between them (i.e. war and genocide).
Modern, evangelical religions are actually a fascinating technological development for humanity because it allowed people of *different* ethnic backgrounds to unite underneath *one* unified set of moral codes with shared dietary, dress, and cultural shibboleths to separate the "good people" from the "dangerous savages." Before evangelical faiths, one had to be *born* into a group to be considered worthy of the protection of the gods and law. Religion gave people a way of judging whether people they had never met before were "safe" members of the same group or people who were different and thus "evil."
However, the rise of modern secularism and religious freedom has not worn away the basic human need to identify with like-minded people and to heap misery on those who are different. Right now, there's little material difference between the views that Western Democracy has of Middle Eastern Theocracy compared to what 19th Century White Christendom thought of African Savagery. "Our way of life is superior and more civilized. These people are wrong-headed for not seeing the superiority of our ways, and their way of life leads to terrible, immortal behavior." It's also no different from what atheist State Communists think of Capitalist Bourgeoisie or for that matter what Muslims think of the West in return. It's fundamentally human.
In any case, it isn't the sins of the ancestors that are the concern here: It is the fact that the religion instructed them to commit those sins, and that the religions have not changed a great deal from those days.
Well, you're ignoring the fact that the vast majority of religions preach very strongly against many of the worst atrocities committed in their name. Christianity is an extremely pacifistic religion with a huge emphasis on generosity, kindness to the downtrodden, and forgiveness. Yet, it's the same force behind the Inquisition, the Crusades, money-hungry televangelists, and a large push in American politics to resist government handouts to the poor.
Why is this? It's because it's not the actual values of a social group that matters -- its the fact that they differentiate "good people" from "bad people." It's that they enable our instincts that allow us to look at some people as less valuable than people like us. The worst genocides in history were committed by Soviet atheists who believed strongly in principles of social equity. Does that mean that atheism or egalitarianism are failed belief systems and are responsible for creating all that death? Of course not! What matters is that people in a position of power were able to scapegoat people who were different from mainstream society and to channel that destructive energy towards ill ends.
Christians murdered heretics, Communists slaughtered the religious, and America spent much of this decade torturing and bombing people in the name of Freedom and Justice for All. No belief system can protect against this wicked men exploiting mob fear and xenophobia so long as people are ignora
Christianity, with its history of inquisitions, crusades, witch burnings, pogroms, blood libel, financial parasitism, subjugation of women, repression of science, burning of scientists at the stake, abandonment of adherents, and general pillage... isn't a dangerous cult? Really?
History being the key word. Ancient history, even. In a time period when the world was relatively barbaric compared with the modern world, you'd be hard pressed to find any significant group of people, whether a religion, a nation, or even a corporation that did not commit some sort of atrocities. We should judge any group of people based on their ancient history, just as we do not wish to be judged on the sins of our forefathers, etc. We can only reasonably judge an organization based on the way it behaves in modern times.
Christianity, with its history of inquisitions, crusades, witch burnings, pogroms, blood libel, financial parasitism, subjugation of women, repression of science, burning of scientists at the stake, abandonment of adherents, and general pillage... isn't a dangerous cult? Really?
You might profit from actually studying the inquisition(s), as I have. With a few much bandied exceptions, they weren't what you portray them as. Crusades? In the first place, I would question whether a crusading Christianity is a true Christianity--or any Christianity that has sold out to secular authority. The crusades were motivated in large measure by the problem of landless second sons and good old-fashioned greed. Religion was a post-hoc rationalization--an attempt to turn that greed towards what was regarded as a good purpose, not a driving force. Not that I agree with that rationalization, but your characterization is flawed. Again, learn some history rather than a parody of history. Witch burnings? Witch burnings mostly came along thanks to a Renaissance fascination with magic and the occult, and were quite rare if not unheard of prior to that time. In fact, the Council of Paderborn condemned the belief in Witches (i.e. that they existed, had power, or could hurt you) as heretical, and that was orthodoxy for the vast bulk of the churches history. And the handbook of witchburners--the Malleus Maleficarum was regarded as a heretical document by most responsible Christians from the time it was published. Pogroms? Hmm... so far as I know, pogroms are hardly a uniquely religious phenomenon. It's been proven to death that Hitler was no Christian, but if that doesn't do it for you you might take a look at how Stalin (an avowed atheist) treated the Jews. Not to mention Claudius' rather vicious suppression of the Jews of Rome in the first century, or the general hatred of Diaspora Jewry throughout the ancient world among the gentiles. Anti-semitism was not a Christian invention. Subjugation of women? Tell me... who the hell DIDN'T subjugate women prior to the invention of industrialized society and The Pill? News flash: economics matter, and when women were tied down by childbirth, breast-feeding, and lack of physical strength, women's lib didn't get very far. Not defending subjugation of women, by any means, but on a whole the Christian church has been a progressive force for women when you compare it to the times, not a repressive one. Again, learn some history, instead of parody of same. Repression of science? Sure, there were examples. But there were also many, many Christian sponsors of science and the arts. You're ignoring half the equation. Galileo got in trouble as much for being a jerk about it as for what he taught. Burning of scientists at the stake? Uhmmm... I'm trying to think of an example. Do you have one? I really can't think of one. Abandonment of adherents? What on EARTH are you talking about? General pillage? Oh, come on. Give me a break. Now you're just name-calling.
Now, let me make another observation here... every single example you bring up is what happens when the church sells out and seeks political power. As an Anabaptist, I believe this is the one thing the church must never do. So, even if your laundry list had merit (it really doesn't... it reads more like a tired list of he-said-she-said from someone who got everything he knows about religion and history from infidels.org) it doesn't apply to me, nor to the millions of Christians who regard Constantinian Christianity as no Christianity at all.
So kindly exercise some discretion and actually learn something before you start flapping your gums and slandering things you know nothing about.
So what draws this clear line for you between Scientology and "actual religion"?
It's seems we have to go through this every time, so:
Pick a church. Any church. Catholic, Hindu, Baptist, Muslim, Jehovah's Witness, Buddhist, whatever. Go in some day when people are around and ask them what they believe. Someone will sit down with you and answer questions until you can't think of any more, and will almost certainly offer you a free copy of the appropriate religious texts.
Now repeat the experiment at a Scientology office. See how far you get without whipping out a checkbook or Visa.
That is the difference. "True" religions are interested in your spiritual health and will help you develop it according to their beliefs, even if it costs them. The CoS is interested in your wallet.
Lawyers are the new priesthood and it is assumed that the lay person can't understand the arcane doctrine of the law without one.
As a law student, I'll say that it's simply true that a lay person can't understand the arcane doctrine of the law as it currently stands. Not with about as much formal or self-education as it would take for a lay person to learn circuit design or nursing.
On the one hand, it's a real shame because it means that much of the law which governs people is inaccessible, seems overly obsessed with procedure, and sometimes seems to defy "common" sense without a background in the history of how the courts got to where they are today. On the other hand, modern law is capable of handling issues that simply could not be tackled by the doctrines of the 19th century. The evolution of environmental law beyond common law doctrines of trespass and nuisance is a huge advance in legal protection for citizens that makes possible truly preventative approaches rather than too late remedial approaches, but it's a nightmare to navigate for businessmen without an experienced hand to know what to look for.
Justice is a hard thing, and it deserves expert treatment no less than engineering or medicine do. I think it's a shame that making laws doesn't require the same level of professionalism that enforcing or adjudicating them does.
I don't know why this is considered censorship. They brought the case before a judge who made a legal decision which can be appealed (and is).
France did not ban the organization from the country (although it seems as though they wanted to). Had they done that then I could understand the censorship tag, but really... Being tried for a crime in this case does not mean censorship.
by Anonymous Coward
on Tuesday October 27, @02:30PM (#29887751)
I don't know why this is considered censorship. They brought the case before a judge who made a legal decision which can be appealed (and is).
France did not ban the organization from the country (although it seems as though they wanted to). Had they done that then I could understand the censorship tag, but really... Being tried for a crime in this case does not mean censorship.
Essentially, $cientologists get to deduct the costs of their "courses" from their taxes. No other religious group in the US gets to do this. (see Sklar v. IRS)
Obviously Scientology is a laughable pile of dog shit, but how is it any worse than any of the other superstitious cults out there, like Christianity or Islam?
If you're going to make it a crime to pressure people into giving money to a cult based on a bunch of idiotic stories, you might as well start with the older ones.
Look at Mormons. They shun their own family if they don't buy into their crap. Threatening to make you effectively dead to your whole (brainwashed) family - that's not extortion? Catholicism has excommunication, same idea.
Christians used "God" as an excuse to perpetrate some of the worst *atrocities* in history. The Crusades. Manifest Destiny. George Bush. The list goes on.
In the scheme of things, bilking retarded celebrities out of their "hard"-earned cash just doesn't seem that bad to me. Frankly, I find it amusing. Scientology is the Stephen Colbert of religion. Their own founder made it so ridiculously outlandish that only a total idiot would actually believe in it. I'm sure L. Ron would laugh his ass off if he knew how much money Tom Cruise had forked over to his church.
by Anonymous Coward
on Tuesday October 27, @02:20PM (#29887605)
Obviously Scientology is a laughable pile of dog shit, but how is it any worse than any of the other superstitious cults out there, like Christianity or Islam?
Major differences with Scientology:
1. It does not have a thousands-year history of people believing it
2. It is a single centralized organization instead of a widespread population with sects and branches
3. The individuals controlling that single centralized organization today have a long history of criminal activity, as did just about everyone who ever had a position of power in that organization
The significant difference is that we know [faqs.org] that the Co$ was started with express intention of fleecing money from its drones. With the others, we just have to use common sense to infer it.
Look at Mormons. They shun their own family if they don't buy into their crap. Threatening to make you effectively dead to your whole (brainwashed) family - that's not extortion? Catholicism has excommunication, same idea.
Nonsense. Mormons are quite free and able to interact with people who "don't buy into their crap." I say it's actually their defining characteristic when compared to other loony cults. Excommunication is reserved for cardinal sins, not merely associating with people who don't buy your crap. Not to mention that excommunication is not the tool of control that it was during the middle ages.
Finally, there are a few reasons why Scientology is far more dangerous than today's mainstream Abrahamic religions, Hinduism or any other organized religion. There is the US vs Them mentality that pervades the organization, the complete disregard for laws in their pursuit of their enemies and the practical enslavement of the low-rung members. In other words, the reason that Scientology is dangerous is that it is as loony as the fringe suicide cults that have always existed, and it is as large as many respectable religious organizations. With the former comes extreme (and deadly) actions, with the second comes power to carry out the extreme actions in great numbers and under cover.
Hubbard might have laughed at all the money Cruise has forked over, but he would be laughing on his yacht while figuring out how to extract more money.
You missed what I said. I'm talking about their behavior toward FORMER mormons, not NON-mormons.
Speaking as a person who was baptized in the Mormon church when I was 12, and left when I was 17, I must point out that this statement is complete and utter bullshit.
I am an atheist. I have many friends and family (including my wife) who subscribe to one of the many Christian variants. Also friends and colleagues who are Hindu, Sikh, Islam etc etc.
Once upon a time I had lots of close friends who are now Scientologists. They actively, passionately, and publicly hate me and consider me to be a deeply immoral person. A SP in their own language.
The gulf between your 'typical' Scientologist and how they view the world and other mainstream faiths is in my own very direct experience, is an extra-ordinary gulf.
You can trot out the religious atrocities of the past, but your typical theist today is as likely as a non theist to be a decent, social, community minded person. Scientology followers, by virtue of their extremist and uncompromising doctrine, are very much an anti social vector, and the only community they respect is their own Scientology community. As for your uninformed comments about only 'retards' being attracted to Scientology - cults like Scientology are actually quite nuanced and sophisticated in their recruitment - and attracting educated white collar folk is their bread and butter. Read this book if you have the inclination. A piece of blue sky [cmu.edu]
In all honesty, I would LOVE to have a good, thorough talk with a fully-believing, intelligent scientologist. No flaming, no yelling, hell, I won't even insult him or his beliefs. I would just like to see if I can understand WHY he follows that religion as opposed to others.
What are your crimes? Did you club a baby seal?
Yeah, that sounds odd but there is a fairly well documented [tmz.com] instance where a celebrity Scientologist asked that of a critic whom, to be fair, was wearing a t-shirt that directly attacked their "religion". Most people would call him an idiot and move on, or just walk past, but they began insinuating that he was a criminal and had committed some truly heinous crimes.
I'm not saying you can't have the conversation you wish, but if some idiotic t-shirt can cause that response I can't imagine that there is much hope. Though it isn't something I've seen advertised, it appears that there is a trained response to critics where the practitioners accuse the critic of committing crimes as evidenced by their criticism of Scientology.
The short version is that Christian salvation is free. I can go to church, I can read the bible, I can get into heaven without ever giving a cent to a Christian denomination. They're not selling salvation. It might be worth tossing a few bucks their way (or to the mosque, or the buddhist temple) to keep the services available, but there's no requirement to pay up.
With Scientology, salvation is directly tied to how much money you put into it. You buy access to higher levels.
Doctrinally, I don't think they're much different in crazy factor, but as far as the business practices go in terms of bilking believers, they're an outright fraud.
Obviously Scientology is a laughable pile of dog shit, but how is it any worse than any of the other superstitious cults out there, like Christianity or Islam?
While you might follow up with good points later on in the post, that first line is flamebait. Try removing all of the "emotional" wording from your post and just supply the information. It's not what you say as much as how you say it. You worded thing in a flamebait manor.
No. Non-Christians pretending to be Christians ("wolves in sheep's clothing") used Christianity to perpetrate some of the worst atrocities in history for their own personal, evil ends, usually money and power. That includes George Bush; nothing he did marks him as a Christian, no matter that he does in fact profess to be one.
Such a bullshit argument. Ever heard of the "No true Scotsman" fallacy? Unfortunately, you don't get to disown members of your group/clan/religion because they did something bad. The truth is that many actual Christians were involved in committing terrible atrocities.
All Christianity is, is belief in (a certain interpretation) of God. That's all it takes. You can be criminally insane, a brutal dictator, whatever - you can still be a Christian if you believe. And many perpetrators of crimes against humanity did believe.
See discussion on their numbers at adherents.com [adherents.com], a site whose main purpose is to track # of adherents to specific religions world wide, where they discuss why scientology isn't on their default charts.
The discussion mentions "8 million", which at the time was the number often found in the media, that number is now apparently often 12 million. But the source of this number is the Church of Scientology itself.
From this analysis, they conclude the # of Scientologists claimed by the CoS is "the total number of people who have participated in Church of Scientology activities since the inception of the church."
> > > > > > > Scilon Troll: "Hey, it's no sillier than $mainstreamReligion"
> > > > > > Fundamentalist Religious Dupe #1: "No it's not, our $mainstreamReligion is holy, space aliens are weird."
> > > > > Fundamentalist Atheist Dupe #1: "You silly $mainstreamReligionist! Both your belief systems are bogus!"
> > > > Moderate Atheist Dupe #2: "Yeah, all religions are the same."
> > Trolly Atheist Dupe #3: "Yeah, we should tax 'em all!"
> Paranoid Religious Dupe #3: "No way, I'd rather just let the Scilons keep on doing what they're doing... Relijus Freedumb!!!"
And then the Scilon troll reports back to the mothership: "False equivalence has been established. Everyone's bickering about whose religion is weirder, and all the moderates have agreed that our beliefs are as legitimate a religion as everyone else. Now we can claim religious persecution when speaking to religious audiences, and that we're being attacked by fanatics when we speak to non-religious audiences. Mission Accomplished!"
This isn't about whether Jesus or Xenu or the Flying Spaghetti Monster is weirder. Or about the relative atrocities of Crusades, the RPF, or not serving meatballs with spaghetti.
It's about one specific organization, and its track record of using litigation as a tool to silence dissent. Sonny Bono, Scientologist and Senator, not only supported the Mickey Mouse Protection Act [wikipedia.org] which extended copyright terms to 75 years plus the life of the creator, he got the damn bill named after itself. When the DMCA [wikipedia.org] was passed in 1998, guess was among the first first lawsuit [com.com] under its provisions just a few months later? Hint: It's the same organization that attacked Slashdot [slashdot.org] itself in 2001 and Google [chillingeffects.org] in 2002.
It's not about space aliens, UFOs shaped like DC-8s, or volcanoes. It's about one organization's multi-decade track record of attacks on the Internet [wikipedia.org]. That - and nothing else - is why it's News For Nerds, and Stuff That Matters.
Of course, by the time I've typed this, we'll have already gone through 100 posts of "No, your religion is weirder!" "No, all religions are silly", and Scilon trolls sitting back and smiling gleefully as they watch yet another message board thread fall for the distraction tactic, and this post all pointless.
(Yep, the Cult has already compared it to the Spanish Inquisition. For something nobody's supposed to expect, I'm not at all surprised the cult spokesperson has already started to draw comparisons to the Spanish Inquisition, especially in a historically-Catholic country, and right on time, two attempts to distract us by advocating taxation of the Catholic Church shows up here...)
In France, there has been an incredible 'mistake', where a law was about to be passed allowing to ban the Scientology. However, it appears that there have been an error, where all the text expressing the ban of dangerous cults disappeared !
There is a huge debate in France because of this incredible mistake, and a lot of high public officials pretend that this is a computer error (eventually, it was the fact of a human editor).
It has been widely published that the french president Sarkozy welcomed Tom Cruise as a president, and Sarkozy has his own personal guru, who sends him positive waves every day (yes, this has been published too !). Also, Sarkozy use the Scientology methods, especially in a current lawsuit, involving a previous Prime Minister: Dominique de Villepin. The idea is to never try to defend, but to concentrate on harassing.
So now, we are in a sad state in France, where the Scientology has been condamned to a symbolic fine, and with a lot of indices that Sarkozy is involved with Scientology. And the worst thing is that the opposition does not seem eager to attack Sarkozy on this subject.
As usual, the political omerta will cover all these dirty schemes, and the large audience will remain unaware of the real stakes.
BTW, in the last month, in France we had: 1) an ex-prime minister attacked by Sarkozy in the Clearstream affair, but I'm pretty sure he is innocent because it was the president Chirac who tried to trap Sarkozy 2) our minister of Culture who wrote in a book that he is a pedophile (and he just adopted a 18 years guy, as a way to provide inheritance in same sex couples). Funnily, he tried to protest against Polanski's arrest. 3) Jean, the son of Sarkozy, was about to be elected as the director of the EPAD, which is the organism that decides where to install buildings in the new french eldorado (La Défense)
Are you sure you remember the incident correctly? All I remember is that the OT3 post was deleted, only to be followed by hundreds of others in the comments section of the announcement and dozens of links to it elsewhere.
You have a point there actually. 2 things seem to be at the forefront of the news these days:
(1) The rise of radical fundmentalist religious groups. Scientologists are the worst of the worst here (kinda - they're greedy rather than crazy in that I don't believe for a second that most people involved at top believe what they're saying), but the crazy fundamentalists of Christianity, Islam, and other off-shoot cults (Lord Our Righteousness Church anyone?) are equally scary. These people are on a dead-end path to nowhere. If they take control of the global mindset then technological progress will halt and we'll plunge back into another dark age.
(2) Rise of China and it's power.
#2 is a scary though, but truthfully, it has SOME comfort because thought a totalitarian regime is the anti-thesis of what I as an American believe in, I also know that regarding situation #1, China won't put up with that shit. If Scientology had started in China this problem would have been solved and over with DECADES ago.
Basically I HOPE that our system works and prevails against this growing issue, but if we fail I'd prefer a secular Communist Dictatorship over an equally oppressive Theocracy.
Intolerant idealism is mankind's costliest folly (thanks Churchill), no matter if it comes in the form of religion, communism, fascism, or anything else. It leads to the most evil behavior that human beings have ever engaged in.
In recent decades China has been more open and more tolerant (which is to say, not very tolerant at all), but at one point they were executing everybody with even an inkling of an independent thought.
Accepting one form of intolerant idealism over another because you like it's marketing strategy better is a fools game. In the end you will find cold hard brutality of the worst kind no matter which you meekly accept.
Don't discriminate. Revoke the tax-exempt status of ALL churches. The tax exemption was part of a Faustian bargain between church and state; the church was supposed to take care of social services for the poor, and in return tithes weren't taxed. The churches long ago abrogated that responsibility and turned responsibility for the social "safety net" over to the state -- and yet they still retain their tax-exempt status?!? WTF?!? Here in Beaverton, the Catholic Church owns hundreds of acres of prime real estate, and yet they have the gall to insist that people suing them get nothing because they declared bankruptcy and their church rules state that church property cannot be taken away in a lawsuit -- as if their church laws trump the government laws?!? WTF?!? Make non-profits pay the same real estate taxes as everyone else, so that the free market can actually work to put underused properties to their best use.
I didn't read such a thing. The court merely declined to dissolve the cult altogether (what the prosecution requested), which would have been legally difficult considering that a scumbag lawmaker from scumbag Sarkozy's scumbag party passed an amendment that removed the penalty of dissolution for entities convicted of fraud a few months ago.
At least it hasn't (yet) marched a bunch of its adherents into other countries, slaughtering "infidels", or set up any 800-year long inquisitions, or flown any aircraft into buildings, or burned any "witches." Though no doubt, give it time -- fanatics who base their thinking on superstitious bullshit almost always get around to such idiocy.
I'm not one to defend any religion, but Scientology's a lot worse today than any modern mainstream religion. If you need any proof, feel free to have a look here [xenu.net] and here [lermanet.com]. No modern religion forces family members to give up their loved ones, picket outside the house of an 'unbeliever', or essentially, slavery.
No modern religion forces family members to give up their loved ones, picket outside the house of an 'unbeliever', or essentially, slavery.
Islam prohibits Muslim women from marrying non-Muslim men, proscribes death penalty for abandoning Islam (which any Muslim is required to carry out should he get the opportunity), and provides a legal framework for slavery, including female sexual slavery.
It's not just words on paper, either - some or all of the above are actually practiced in a certain Islamic societies around the world.
Modern "Christianity" is not one single entity, so if you were to try to prosecute "Christianity" you'd have to prosecute a lot of groups who have widely disparate views. What is it, exactly, about Christianity that you think is fraudulent? Is it the promise of immortality in exchange for obedience to some set of rules? That doesn't meet any definition of fraud that I'm aware of, unless you can conclusively prove that the promises given by Christian teachings are false (and even then, not all false things are fraudulent).
Scientology is being attacked because it's a group that's actively engaged in fraud and extortion; their sci-fi "religion" is merely a front for their money-making activities. Christianity does not meet that definition - or more accurately not every group that calls itself "Christian" meets that definition (and if they are engaged in fraud, then they're clearly ignoring what they claim to believe). They are not being prosecuted merely for their beliefs.
That's one thing you have to realize: Scientology encourages fraudulent behavior, whereas Christianity (as taught by the New Testament) does precisely the opposite. It is the behavior that is being attacked in court, not the beliefs.
You really don't really adhere to "atheism". You simply don't believe what others have told you because it doesn't make any sense. Like leprechauns and unicorns.
Here's the distinction, and it's quite the heavy issue:
Religion orders, demands, ordains and directs atrocities. Witch burnings were _specifically_ religious. The inquisitions (papal and Spanish) were _specifically_ religious. The arrest of Galileo and the burning of Filippo (Giordano) Bruno at the stake were _specifically_ religious. The atrocities of the crusades were _specifically_ religious. The list goes on, and it is monotonously consistent.
Now these people were motivated / told / ordered by religion to do what they did. That's the nature of the acts -- they were religious acts. They may also have all liked bread, and sex, but those were not their motivations. So we don't blame the "sexers" or the "breadeaters" for the witch burnings, etc. When you blame a system for acts, you need to positively associate the system's dictates with the acts, otherwise you're just spouting bullshit. Correlation is not causation.
Stalin did not kill people because atheism told him to, hinted that he should, or even led him in that direction. Atheism is the lack of a belief in a god or gods. That's all it is. There is no dogma; no instruction; no direction. It is *entirely* disingenuous to try to blame motivation - Stalin's or anyone else's - on atheism. Likewise, the blowtards of Columbine were not taking direction from Atheism; their pathology was something else entirely (and we would probably find it had something to do with religion, if we actually thought it through... after all, it is religion that dictates behavior, not atheism, and those broken individuals were clearly reacting against something, not for something.)
Theism is a set of active belief systems with rules, directions, leaders, and so forth. Atheism is not.
Stalin absolutely killed people because Atheism told him it was OK.
To blame the mass killings of USSR on the imposed removal of religion and religous practice there is ridiculous. It was the work of madmen.
To say that "Atheism told him it was OK," or informs anybody of anything beyond "There are no gods," is equally absurd.
What can you tell us about the precepts and princples of this -ism which you seem to know so much about? The notions of good and evil did not, and do not, require a religion because they are obvious.
who really won the trial? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:who really won the trial? (Score:5, Funny)
I say its time to rename Freedom Fries to French Fries.
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Re:who really won the trial? (Score:5, Funny)
I would make a comment about it being a pyramid scheme religion, but that does apply to too many religions for it have any punch.
Damned Egyptians.
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Fine? (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Fine? (Score:4, Informative)
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Money Supply (Score:4, Insightful)
I agree about the money portion
While that may be true outside France, inside France things are a little murkier. Now that they have been convicted of fraud they have to be careful since now a lot of the people who gave them money can probably get it back. Paying the fine might not be a problem but continuing to raise funds might.
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Re:Fine? (Score:5, Insightful)
The thing I can't figure out is why this is on /. other than /.ers hate Scientology (and all religion).
See the guy in the background of this picture? http://images.smh.com.au/2009/10/27/818030/420spokeswoman-420x0.jpg [smh.com.au]
from this article [smh.com.au]
That mask represents a pushback against Scientology's censorship and abuse of the legal process.
Feel free to read more about it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Chanology [wikipedia.org]
You don't have to agree with all of it to accept that freedom of speech is good and censorship is bad
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Re:Fine? (Score:5, Informative)
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Re:Fine? (Score:5, Funny)
How much is a whetstone bridg.. errr.. "Thetan Detector" reading going for nowadays? They'll just tell their culti.. err.. members that they all need to come in for a refresher scan at $100 a pop because this incident might have caused a Thetan eruption and Xenu might be now able to come out from behind the moon in his ship, so they have to monitor galvanic respons.. sorry.. THETAN levels more carefully for a while.
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Re:Fine? (Score:4, Interesting)
Confirmed. An ex girlfriend on mine used to work at Wells Fargo Bank. The CO$ has literally dozens, if not hundreds, of individual accounts with more than several million deposited in each. I'll bet this is not their only back either. They have a shitload of cash for lawyering up.
Must be nice to be able to lie to stupid people, in the name of an imagined deity, to confiscate their savings. I have a conscious and can't imagine the worthless people who can pull that off. All religions suck, especially the fake ones.
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The Ammunition for Both Sides (Score:5, Insightful)
A spokeswoman for the church, Agnès Bron, called the verdict "an Inquisition for modern times."
Help me out here, which Inquisition [wikipedia.org] are you trying to draw a parallel to?
... which sound more like extortion through coercion to me than anything else.
In all of the most popular ones I think it was the several hundreds (possibly thousands) of individuals being persecuted for not believing Roman Catholicism (the popular religion). Crazy Catholic tribunals prosecuting people on arcane doctrine! Usually resulting in the end of their life or excommunication. Now the current situation is the government of France in a single instance finding the Church of Scientology guilty of fraud. Was there anything to do with religious doctrine in this case? Because I thought fraud was fraud whether you're the pope or Richard Dawkins! And the result is a paltry sum of $900,000 that is -- what? -- 1/7th of what it cost Tom Cruise to get to his last level of clairvoyance?
To reiterate, you're not being persecuted for your beliefs but instead your finances
Go ahead and use this to try to appeal to people with a persecution complex. If they have one, they won't find more persecution anywhere else than your ranks. I'm glad that sane people -- when hassled by you -- can now be informed that your accounting practices in France have been legally decried as fraud!
Re:The Ammunition for Both Sides (Score:5, Funny)
No one expects the French Inquisition!
No, really. No one at all. Complete surprise.
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Re:The Ammunition for Both Sides (Score:5, Funny)
Our chief weapon is fear. Fear and surprise.
And a two dollar fine.
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There is a difference... (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm no fan of mainstream or historical religions either, and agree with nearly all of what you said. But:
So what draws this clear line for you between Scientology and "actual religion"? I'd really like to know.
Scientology refuses to even tell you what they believe without you spending large amounts of money. If you "convert", you do so without any knowledge or even opportunity to examine their beliefs. The beliefs, such as they are, are not revealed until after you've emptied your bank account for them.
Pretty much all "actual religions" are happy -- overeager, even -- to tell you what they believe. Their holy books are publicly available. Only this one charges you many thousands of dollars to learn what your own religion's beliefs are if you convert.
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'Cause past sins are just as relevant today. (Score:5, Insightful)
Christianity, with its history of inquisitions, crusades, witch burnings, pogroms, blood libel, financial parasitism, subjugation of women, repression of science, burning of scientists at the stake, abandonment of adherents, and general pillage... isn't a dangerous cult? Really?
Yeah! And white people, with their history of colonialism, slavery, pillage, and rape of minorities need to be locked away as well. Because the sins of ones ancestors are exactly the same as acts committed today!
Christianity is no different from any other major religion in the horrors it has created, and it's no different from modern, secular, state-scale cultural/political forces like state communism or nationalism. It turns out that when we humans band together in large groups around a shared system of beliefs and cultural identity, we have an overwhelming tendency to act like murderous, condescending assholes to everyone else. Religion is just the form we're most familiar with due to the short time-period that widespread secularism has been in existence.
Personally, while I think Scientology is a pretty dangerous organization today, I'm not too worried about their future. Scientology today is just kind of like LDS church was 100 years ago -- feeling persecuted and justified in lashing out at its critics. They don't face the same kind of (often violent) persecution the LDS church did, and their ways are really out of touch with modern society's opinions on "asshatery in the name of faith," but give it a century, and they may well turn into model citizens. Doesn't really mean that they're not a group to watch out for in the meantime, though.
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Fail (Score:5, Insightful)
No. But any attempt at colonialism, slavery, pillage, torture, misogyny, class-ism, caste, and rape needs to be stepped upon. More directly, any organization that espouses these ideals needs to be stepped upon. The flaw in your idea there is that people, white or otherwise, are not the same as religion. Religion equates to things like the KKK; long-extant organizations that have formalized goals which have not changed in any significant manner, and a history of doing profound evil to pursue those goals (and sometimes, as with the KKK, goals that are themselves evil.)
You'll note that the KKK is not a reason to pillory current white people, and likewise, the tenets of religion are not a reason to pillory current people, even if religious - they are reason to pillory *religion*. The organization is responsible for the evil done at its behest and encouragement. You don't take that responsibility away by saying "well, they did that *yesterday*, so it doesn't matter any longer." It bloody well does. Because the organization isn't its own descendant: It's the *same entity*.
For instance, the US government is still responsible for jailing US citizens of Japanese ethnicity during WWII. Because it's the same organization. The responsibility doesn't go away when the legislators change seats. Sure, those original legislators are guilty too, and sure, modern legislators didn't cause the problem, but they are *still* responsible for the consequences, because they represent the organization, and the responsibility accrues to the organization. If they don't want to deal with the acts of the government, they shouldn't be in government. Any religion is exactly the same. So the atrocities of the crusades matter. The witch burnings matter. Galileo's imprisonment matters. Also, these things tell us what the religion will do if it has the freedom to do so. In the US, at least, we've managed to trim back access to such powers by separating church from state. Somewhat. Although lately, they've been making some very unfortunate gains back.
In any case, it isn't the sins of the ancestors that are the concern here: It is the fact that the religion instructed them to commit those sins, and that the religions have not changed a great deal from those days. Society has changed around them -- religion no longer officially serves as high level political authority right in the middle of the power structure -- but that doesn't mean that they aren't responsible when aircraft are flown into buildings, clinics are blown up, suicide bombers walk into crowds, or laws are made restricting the actions of the general public to those the religions think are "ok." Your assertion that religions of today are innocent of the kinds of motivations and acts we have seen in the past is simply unsustainable, no matter if made directly, or with a failed analogy, as above.
Your analogy breaks down immediately because an ancestor is a unique individual acting on their own; a religion is a still-extant entity that was, and is, acting on its own, using the same precepts it always has, and so is still culpable. They know it, too... just look at the apology for Galileo's imprisonment. Centuries later. Why? Because it's still the same Catholic church. The pope wasn't apologizing for the sins of an ancestor; he was apologizing for the sins of his organization. He's saying "we screwed up based on our beliefs", and I'm saying, "keep watching those idiots, they still believe the same stupid things and are the same stupid organization."
Oh, I agree completely. Except for Scientology. Thus far. They're young, I'm pretty sure they'll find a way. Look how quickly the Heaven's Gate saucer religion managed to get people killed. Scientology's just a little retarded, that's all. They'll probably find a reason. Xenu and all.
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Again, religion is nothing special. (Score:5, Insightful)
No. But any attempt at colonialism, slavery, pillage, torture, misogyny, class-ism, caste, and rape needs to be stepped upon. More directly, any organization that espouses these ideals needs to be stepped upon.
Of course. No one sane would disagree -- unless it was their own group doing it. (See post-Abu Ghraib acceptance of torture in the US and support for firebombing Cambodia during Vietnam before and after we started doing it.) Humans are frighteningly good at rationalizing away the evil of their own groups.
The flaw in your idea there is that people, white or otherwise, are not the same as religion.
Well, yes and no. Race is but one arbitrary line to draw between people, but it's an extremely important one because tied to the core evolutionary trait that drives most human conflict -- social hierarchies and the instinctual drives needed to facilitate competition between them (i.e. war and genocide).
Modern, evangelical religions are actually a fascinating technological development for humanity because it allowed people of *different* ethnic backgrounds to unite underneath *one* unified set of moral codes with shared dietary, dress, and cultural shibboleths to separate the "good people" from the "dangerous savages." Before evangelical faiths, one had to be *born* into a group to be considered worthy of the protection of the gods and law. Religion gave people a way of judging whether people they had never met before were "safe" members of the same group or people who were different and thus "evil."
However, the rise of modern secularism and religious freedom has not worn away the basic human need to identify with like-minded people and to heap misery on those who are different. Right now, there's little material difference between the views that Western Democracy has of Middle Eastern Theocracy compared to what 19th Century White Christendom thought of African Savagery. "Our way of life is superior and more civilized. These people are wrong-headed for not seeing the superiority of our ways, and their way of life leads to terrible, immortal behavior." It's also no different from what atheist State Communists think of Capitalist Bourgeoisie or for that matter what Muslims think of the West in return. It's fundamentally human.
In any case, it isn't the sins of the ancestors that are the concern here: It is the fact that the religion instructed them to commit those sins, and that the religions have not changed a great deal from those days.
Well, you're ignoring the fact that the vast majority of religions preach very strongly against many of the worst atrocities committed in their name. Christianity is an extremely pacifistic religion with a huge emphasis on generosity, kindness to the downtrodden, and forgiveness. Yet, it's the same force behind the Inquisition, the Crusades, money-hungry televangelists, and a large push in American politics to resist government handouts to the poor.
Why is this? It's because it's not the actual values of a social group that matters -- its the fact that they differentiate "good people" from "bad people." It's that they enable our instincts that allow us to look at some people as less valuable than people like us. The worst genocides in history were committed by Soviet atheists who believed strongly in principles of social equity. Does that mean that atheism or egalitarianism are failed belief systems and are responsible for creating all that death? Of course not! What matters is that people in a position of power were able to scapegoat people who were different from mainstream society and to channel that destructive energy towards ill ends.
Christians murdered heretics, Communists slaughtered the religious, and America spent much of this decade torturing and bombing people in the name of Freedom and Justice for All. No belief system can protect against this wicked men exploiting mob fear and xenophobia so long as people are ignora
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Re:Come on. (Score:5, Insightful)
History being the key word. Ancient history, even. In a time period when the world was relatively barbaric compared with the modern world, you'd be hard pressed to find any significant group of people, whether a religion, a nation, or even a corporation that did not commit some sort of atrocities. We should judge any group of people based on their ancient history, just as we do not wish to be judged on the sins of our forefathers, etc. We can only reasonably judge an organization based on the way it behaves in modern times.
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Re:Come on. (Score:5, Insightful)
You might profit from actually studying the inquisition(s), as I have. With a few much bandied exceptions, they weren't what you portray them as. Crusades? In the first place, I would question whether a crusading Christianity is a true Christianity--or any Christianity that has sold out to secular authority. The crusades were motivated in large measure by the problem of landless second sons and good old-fashioned greed. Religion was a post-hoc rationalization--an attempt to turn that greed towards what was regarded as a good purpose, not a driving force. Not that I agree with that rationalization, but your characterization is flawed. Again, learn some history rather than a parody of history. Witch burnings? Witch burnings mostly came along thanks to a Renaissance fascination with magic and the occult, and were quite rare if not unheard of prior to that time. In fact, the Council of Paderborn condemned the belief in Witches (i.e. that they existed, had power, or could hurt you) as heretical, and that was orthodoxy for the vast bulk of the churches history. And the handbook of witchburners--the Malleus Maleficarum was regarded as a heretical document by most responsible Christians from the time it was published. Pogroms? Hmm... so far as I know, pogroms are hardly a uniquely religious phenomenon. It's been proven to death that Hitler was no Christian, but if that doesn't do it for you you might take a look at how Stalin (an avowed atheist) treated the Jews. Not to mention Claudius' rather vicious suppression of the Jews of Rome in the first century, or the general hatred of Diaspora Jewry throughout the ancient world among the gentiles. Anti-semitism was not a Christian invention. Subjugation of women? Tell me... who the hell DIDN'T subjugate women prior to the invention of industrialized society and The Pill? News flash: economics matter, and when women were tied down by childbirth, breast-feeding, and lack of physical strength, women's lib didn't get very far. Not defending subjugation of women, by any means, but on a whole the Christian church has been a progressive force for women when you compare it to the times, not a repressive one. Again, learn some history, instead of parody of same. Repression of science? Sure, there were examples. But there were also many, many Christian sponsors of science and the arts. You're ignoring half the equation. Galileo got in trouble as much for being a jerk about it as for what he taught. Burning of scientists at the stake? Uhmmm... I'm trying to think of an example. Do you have one? I really can't think of one. Abandonment of adherents? What on EARTH are you talking about? General pillage? Oh, come on. Give me a break. Now you're just name-calling.
Now, let me make another observation here... every single example you bring up is what happens when the church sells out and seeks political power. As an Anabaptist, I believe this is the one thing the church must never do. So, even if your laundry list had merit (it really doesn't... it reads more like a tired list of he-said-she-said from someone who got everything he knows about religion and history from infidels.org) it doesn't apply to me, nor to the millions of Christians who regard Constantinian Christianity as no Christianity at all.
So kindly exercise some discretion and actually learn something before you start flapping your gums and slandering things you know nothing about.
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Re:Come on. (Score:5, Insightful)
So what draws this clear line for you between Scientology and "actual religion"?
It's seems we have to go through this every time, so:
Pick a church. Any church. Catholic, Hindu, Baptist, Muslim, Jehovah's Witness, Buddhist, whatever. Go in some day when people are around and ask them what they believe. Someone will sit down with you and answer questions until you can't think of any more, and will almost certainly offer you a free copy of the appropriate religious texts.
Now repeat the experiment at a Scientology office. See how far you get without whipping out a checkbook or Visa.
That is the difference. "True" religions are interested in your spiritual health and will help you develop it according to their beliefs, even if it costs them. The CoS is interested in your wallet.
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Re:The Ammunition for Both Sides (Score:5, Insightful)
Lawyers are the new priesthood and it is assumed that the lay person can't understand the arcane doctrine of the law without one.
As a law student, I'll say that it's simply true that a lay person can't understand the arcane doctrine of the law as it currently stands. Not with about as much formal or self-education as it would take for a lay person to learn circuit design or nursing.
On the one hand, it's a real shame because it means that much of the law which governs people is inaccessible, seems overly obsessed with procedure, and sometimes seems to defy "common" sense without a background in the history of how the courts got to where they are today. On the other hand, modern law is capable of handling issues that simply could not be tackled by the doctrines of the 19th century. The evolution of environmental law beyond common law doctrines of trespass and nuisance is a huge advance in legal protection for citizens that makes possible truly preventative approaches rather than too late remedial approaches, but it's a nightmare to navigate for businessmen without an experienced hand to know what to look for.
Justice is a hard thing, and it deserves expert treatment no less than engineering or medicine do. I think it's a shame that making laws doesn't require the same level of professionalism that enforcing or adjudicating them does.
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Censorship? (Score:4, Insightful)
I don't know why this is considered censorship. They brought the case before a judge who made a legal decision which can be appealed (and is).
France did not ban the organization from the country (although it seems as though they wanted to). Had they done that then I could understand the censorship tag, but really... Being tried for a crime in this case does not mean censorship.
Re:Censorship? (Score:4, Informative)
I don't know why this is considered censorship. They brought the case before a judge who made a legal decision which can be appealed (and is).
France did not ban the organization from the country (although it seems as though they wanted to). Had they done that then I could understand the censorship tag, but really... Being tried for a crime in this case does not mean censorship.
In the US, $cientology gained its recognition as a "religion" through its members filing numerous lawsuits against the IRS in all fifty states, bugging government offices, stealing files, etc... . There is a secret agreement between $cientology and the IRS that hasn't been released to the public. [cmu.edu] (It has since been leaked [cmu.edu], but never formally released.)
Essentially, $cientologists get to deduct the costs of their "courses" from their taxes. No other religious group in the US gets to do this. (see Sklar v. IRS)
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Please use a link that doesn't sit behind a logon. (Score:5, Informative)
I'm surprised nobody has said this yet, but.. (Score:5, Insightful)
Obviously Scientology is a laughable pile of dog shit, but how is it any worse than any of the other superstitious cults out there, like Christianity or Islam?
If you're going to make it a crime to pressure people into giving money to a cult based on a bunch of idiotic stories, you might as well start with the older ones.
Look at Mormons. They shun their own family if they don't buy into their crap. Threatening to make you effectively dead to your whole (brainwashed) family - that's not extortion? Catholicism has excommunication, same idea.
Christians used "God" as an excuse to perpetrate some of the worst *atrocities* in history. The Crusades. Manifest Destiny. George Bush. The list goes on.
In the scheme of things, bilking retarded celebrities out of their "hard"-earned cash just doesn't seem that bad to me. Frankly, I find it amusing. Scientology is the Stephen Colbert of religion. Their own founder made it so ridiculously outlandish that only a total idiot would actually believe in it. I'm sure L. Ron would laugh his ass off if he knew how much money Tom Cruise had forked over to his church.
Re:I'm surprised nobody has said this yet, but.. (Score:5, Insightful)
Major differences with Scientology:
1. It does not have a thousands-year history of people believing it
2. It is a single centralized organization instead of a widespread population with sects and branches
3. The individuals controlling that single centralized organization today have a long history of criminal activity, as did just about everyone who ever had a position of power in that organization
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Re:I'm surprised nobody has said this yet, but.. (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:I'm surprised nobody has said this yet, but.. (Score:4, Insightful)
Look at Mormons. They shun their own family if they don't buy into their crap. Threatening to make you effectively dead to your whole (brainwashed) family - that's not extortion? Catholicism has excommunication, same idea.
Nonsense. Mormons are quite free and able to interact with people who "don't buy into their crap." I say it's actually their defining characteristic when compared to other loony cults. Excommunication is reserved for cardinal sins, not merely associating with people who don't buy your crap. Not to mention that excommunication is not the tool of control that it was during the middle ages.
Finally, there are a few reasons why Scientology is far more dangerous than today's mainstream Abrahamic religions, Hinduism or any other organized religion. There is the US vs Them mentality that pervades the organization, the complete disregard for laws in their pursuit of their enemies and the practical enslavement of the low-rung members. In other words, the reason that Scientology is dangerous is that it is as loony as the fringe suicide cults that have always existed, and it is as large as many respectable religious organizations. With the former comes extreme (and deadly) actions, with the second comes power to carry out the extreme actions in great numbers and under cover.
Hubbard might have laughed at all the money Cruise has forked over, but he would be laughing on his yacht while figuring out how to extract more money.
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Re:I'm surprised nobody has said this yet, but.. (Score:5, Informative)
You missed what I said. I'm talking about their behavior toward FORMER mormons, not NON-mormons.
Speaking as a person who was baptized in the Mormon church when I was 12, and left when I was 17, I must point out that this statement is complete and utter bullshit.
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Re:I'm surprised nobody has said this yet, but.. (Score:5, Interesting)
I am an atheist. I have many friends and family (including my wife) who subscribe to one of the many Christian variants. Also friends and colleagues who are Hindu, Sikh, Islam etc etc.
Once upon a time I had lots of close friends who are now Scientologists. They actively, passionately, and publicly hate me and consider me to be a deeply immoral person. A SP in their own language.
The gulf between your 'typical' Scientologist and how they view the world and other mainstream faiths is in my own very direct experience, is an extra-ordinary gulf.
You can trot out the religious atrocities of the past, but your typical theist today is as likely as a non theist to be a decent, social, community minded person. Scientology followers, by virtue of their extremist and uncompromising doctrine, are very much an anti social vector, and the only community they respect is their own Scientology community. As for your uninformed comments about only 'retards' being attracted to Scientology - cults like Scientology are actually quite nuanced and sophisticated in their recruitment - and attracting educated white collar folk is their bread and butter. Read this book if you have the inclination. A piece of blue sky [cmu.edu]
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Re:I'm surprised nobody has said this yet, but.. (Score:5, Interesting)
In all honesty, I would LOVE to have a good, thorough talk with a fully-believing, intelligent scientologist. No flaming, no yelling, hell, I won't even insult him or his beliefs. I would just like to see if I can understand WHY he follows that religion as opposed to others.
What are your crimes? Did you club a baby seal?
Yeah, that sounds odd but there is a fairly well documented [tmz.com] instance where a celebrity Scientologist asked that of a critic whom, to be fair, was wearing a t-shirt that directly attacked their "religion". Most people would call him an idiot and move on, or just walk past, but they began insinuating that he was a criminal and had committed some truly heinous crimes.
I'm not saying you can't have the conversation you wish, but if some idiotic t-shirt can cause that response I can't imagine that there is much hope. Though it isn't something I've seen advertised, it appears that there is a trained response to critics where the practitioners accuse the critic of committing crimes as evidenced by their criticism of Scientology.
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Re:I'm surprised nobody has said this yet, but.. (Score:5, Insightful)
The short version is that Christian salvation is free. I can go to church, I can read the bible, I can get into heaven without ever giving a cent to a Christian denomination. They're not selling salvation. It might be worth tossing a few bucks their way (or to the mosque, or the buddhist temple) to keep the services available, but there's no requirement to pay up.
With Scientology, salvation is directly tied to how much money you put into it. You buy access to higher levels.
Doctrinally, I don't think they're much different in crazy factor, but as far as the business practices go in terms of bilking believers, they're an outright fraud.
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Re:I'm surprised nobody has said this yet, but.. (Score:5, Insightful)
Obviously Scientology is a laughable pile of dog shit, but how is it any worse than any of the other superstitious cults out there, like Christianity or Islam?
While you might follow up with good points later on in the post, that first line is flamebait. Try removing all of the "emotional" wording from your post and just supply the information. It's not what you say as much as how you say it. You worded thing in a flamebait manor.
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Re:I'm surprised nobody has said this yet, but.. (Score:5, Insightful)
No. Non-Christians pretending to be Christians ("wolves in sheep's clothing") used Christianity to perpetrate some of the worst atrocities in history for their own personal, evil ends, usually money and power. That includes George Bush; nothing he did marks him as a Christian, no matter that he does in fact profess to be one.
Such a bullshit argument. Ever heard of the "No true Scotsman" fallacy? Unfortunately, you don't get to disown members of your group/clan/religion because they did something bad. The truth is that many actual Christians were involved in committing terrible atrocities.
All Christianity is, is belief in (a certain interpretation) of God. That's all it takes. You can be criminally insane, a brutal dictator, whatever - you can still be a Christian if you believe. And many perpetrators of crimes against humanity did believe.
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12 million worldwide? probably less than 1 Mil... (Score:5, Informative)
Let's get this out of the way first. (Score:5, Insightful)
> > > > > > > Scilon Troll: "Hey, it's no sillier than $mainstreamReligion"
> > > > > > Fundamentalist Religious Dupe #1: "No it's not, our $mainstreamReligion is holy, space aliens are weird."
> > > > > Fundamentalist Atheist Dupe #1: "You silly $mainstreamReligionist! Both your belief systems are bogus!"
> > > > Moderate Atheist Dupe #2: "Yeah, all religions are the same."
> > Trolly Atheist Dupe #3: "Yeah, we should tax 'em all!"
> Paranoid Religious Dupe #3: "No way, I'd rather just let the Scilons keep on doing what they're doing... Relijus Freedumb!!!"
And then the Scilon troll reports back to the mothership: "False equivalence has been established. Everyone's bickering about whose religion is weirder, and all the moderates have agreed that our beliefs are as legitimate a religion as everyone else. Now we can claim religious persecution when speaking to religious audiences, and that we're being attacked by fanatics when we speak to non-religious audiences. Mission Accomplished!"
This isn't about whether Jesus or Xenu or the Flying Spaghetti Monster is weirder. Or about the relative atrocities of Crusades, the RPF, or not serving meatballs with spaghetti.
It's about one specific organization, and its track record of using litigation as a tool to silence dissent. Sonny Bono, Scientologist and Senator, not only supported the Mickey Mouse Protection Act [wikipedia.org] which extended copyright terms to 75 years plus the life of the creator, he got the damn bill named after itself. When the DMCA [wikipedia.org] was passed in 1998, guess was among the first first lawsuit [com.com] under its provisions just a few months later? Hint: It's the same organization that attacked Slashdot [slashdot.org] itself in 2001 and Google [chillingeffects.org] in 2002.
It's not about space aliens, UFOs shaped like DC-8s, or volcanoes. It's about one organization's multi-decade track record of attacks on the Internet [wikipedia.org]. That - and nothing else - is why it's News For Nerds, and Stuff That Matters.
Of course, by the time I've typed this, we'll have already gone through 100 posts of "No, your religion is weirder!" "No, all religions are silly", and Scilon trolls sitting back and smiling gleefully as they watch yet another message board thread fall for the distraction tactic, and this post all pointless.
(Yep, the Cult has already compared it to the Spanish Inquisition. For something nobody's supposed to expect, I'm not at all surprised the cult spokesperson has already started to draw comparisons to the Spanish Inquisition, especially in a historically-Catholic country, and right on time, two attempts to distract us by advocating taxation of the Catholic Church shows up here...)
But it felt good to rant for a bit.
Currently in France (Score:5, Interesting)
You guys completely miss the point.
In France, there has been an incredible 'mistake', where a law was about to be passed allowing to ban the Scientology.
However, it appears that there have been an error, where all the text expressing the ban of dangerous cults disappeared !
There is a huge debate in France because of this incredible mistake, and a lot of high public officials pretend that this is a computer error (eventually, it was the fact of a human editor).
It has been widely published that the french president Sarkozy welcomed Tom Cruise as a president, and Sarkozy has his own personal guru, who sends him positive waves every day (yes, this has been published too !).
Also, Sarkozy use the Scientology methods, especially in a current lawsuit, involving a previous Prime Minister: Dominique de Villepin.
The idea is to never try to defend, but to concentrate on harassing.
So now, we are in a sad state in France, where the Scientology has been condamned to a symbolic fine, and with a lot of indices that Sarkozy is involved with Scientology.
And the worst thing is that the opposition does not seem eager to attack Sarkozy on this subject.
As usual, the political omerta will cover all these dirty schemes, and the large audience will remain unaware of the real stakes.
BTW, in the last month, in France we had:
1) an ex-prime minister attacked by Sarkozy in the Clearstream affair, but I'm pretty sure he is innocent because it was the president Chirac who tried to trap Sarkozy
2) our minister of Culture who wrote in a book that he is a pedophile (and he just adopted a 18 years guy, as a way to provide inheritance in same sex couples). Funnily, he tried to protest against Polanski's arrest.
3) Jean, the son of Sarkozy, was about to be elected as the director of the EPAD, which is the organism that decides where to install buildings in the new french eldorado (La Défense)
I'm stopping here, I'm just too upset...
Re:slashdot caved (Score:4, Informative)
Are you sure you remember the incident correctly? All I remember is that the OT3 post was deleted, only to be followed by hundreds of others in the comments section of the announcement and dozens of links to it elsewhere.
http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=01/03/16/1256226 [slashdot.org]
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Re:It had to be France... (Score:5, Interesting)
You have a point there actually. 2 things seem to be at the forefront of the news these days:
(1) The rise of radical fundmentalist religious groups. Scientologists are the worst of the worst here (kinda - they're greedy rather than crazy in that I don't believe for a second that most people involved at top believe what they're saying), but the crazy fundamentalists of Christianity, Islam, and other off-shoot cults (Lord Our Righteousness Church anyone?) are equally scary. These people are on a dead-end path to nowhere. If they take control of the global mindset then technological progress will halt and we'll plunge back into another dark age.
(2) Rise of China and it's power.
#2 is a scary though, but truthfully, it has SOME comfort because thought a totalitarian regime is the anti-thesis of what I as an American believe in, I also know that regarding situation #1, China won't put up with that shit. If Scientology had started in China this problem would have been solved and over with DECADES ago.
Basically I HOPE that our system works and prevails against this growing issue, but if we fail I'd prefer a secular Communist Dictatorship over an equally oppressive Theocracy.
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Re:It had to be France... (Score:5, Insightful)
In recent decades China has been more open and more tolerant (which is to say, not very tolerant at all), but at one point they were executing everybody with even an inkling of an independent thought.
Accepting one form of intolerant idealism over another because you like it's marketing strategy better is a fools game. In the end you will find cold hard brutality of the worst kind no matter which you meekly accept.
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Re:Revoke The Tax-Free Status Of The Catholic Chur (Score:5, Insightful)
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Source for that ..? (Score:5, Interesting)
I didn't read such a thing. The court merely declined to dissolve the cult altogether (what the prosecution requested), which would have been legally difficult considering that a scumbag lawmaker from scumbag Sarkozy's scumbag party passed an amendment that removed the penalty of dissolution for entities convicted of fraud a few months ago.
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Re:Wake me up when... (Score:4, Informative)
At least it hasn't (yet) marched a bunch of its adherents into other countries, slaughtering "infidels", or set up any 800-year long inquisitions, or flown any aircraft into buildings, or burned any "witches." Though no doubt, give it time -- fanatics who base their thinking on superstitious bullshit almost always get around to such idiocy.
I'm not one to defend any religion, but Scientology's a lot worse today than any modern mainstream religion. If you need any proof, feel free to have a look here [xenu.net] and here [lermanet.com]. No modern religion forces family members to give up their loved ones, picket outside the house of an 'unbeliever', or essentially, slavery.
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Re:Wake me up when... (Score:5, Informative)
No modern religion forces family members to give up their loved ones, picket outside the house of an 'unbeliever', or essentially, slavery.
Islam prohibits Muslim women from marrying non-Muslim men, proscribes death penalty for abandoning Islam (which any Muslim is required to carry out should he get the opportunity), and provides a legal framework for slavery, including female sexual slavery.
It's not just words on paper, either - some or all of the above are actually practiced in a certain Islamic societies around the world.
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Re:Wake me up when... (Score:5, Insightful)
Modern "Christianity" is not one single entity, so if you were to try to prosecute "Christianity" you'd have to prosecute a lot of groups who have widely disparate views. What is it, exactly, about Christianity that you think is fraudulent? Is it the promise of immortality in exchange for obedience to some set of rules? That doesn't meet any definition of fraud that I'm aware of, unless you can conclusively prove that the promises given by Christian teachings are false (and even then, not all false things are fraudulent).
Scientology is being attacked because it's a group that's actively engaged in fraud and extortion; their sci-fi "religion" is merely a front for their money-making activities. Christianity does not meet that definition - or more accurately not every group that calls itself "Christian" meets that definition (and if they are engaged in fraud, then they're clearly ignoring what they claim to believe). They are not being prosecuted merely for their beliefs.
That's one thing you have to realize: Scientology encourages fraudulent behavior, whereas Christianity (as taught by the New Testament) does precisely the opposite. It is the behavior that is being attacked in court, not the beliefs.
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Re:Wake me up when... (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:Wake me up when... (Score:5, Funny)
Leprechauns don't make sense.
Only because they're drunk all the time.
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No. This is a complete strawman. (Score:5, Insightful)
Here's the distinction, and it's quite the heavy issue:
Religion orders, demands, ordains and directs atrocities. Witch burnings were _specifically_ religious. The inquisitions (papal and Spanish) were _specifically_ religious. The arrest of Galileo and the burning of Filippo (Giordano) Bruno at the stake were _specifically_ religious. The atrocities of the crusades were _specifically_ religious. The list goes on, and it is monotonously consistent.
Now these people were motivated / told / ordered by religion to do what they did. That's the nature of the acts -- they were religious acts. They may also have all liked bread, and sex, but those were not their motivations. So we don't blame the "sexers" or the "breadeaters" for the witch burnings, etc. When you blame a system for acts, you need to positively associate the system's dictates with the acts, otherwise you're just spouting bullshit. Correlation is not causation.
Stalin did not kill people because atheism told him to, hinted that he should, or even led him in that direction. Atheism is the lack of a belief in a god or gods. That's all it is. There is no dogma; no instruction; no direction. It is *entirely* disingenuous to try to blame motivation - Stalin's or anyone else's - on atheism. Likewise, the blowtards of Columbine were not taking direction from Atheism; their pathology was something else entirely (and we would probably find it had something to do with religion, if we actually thought it through... after all, it is religion that dictates behavior, not atheism, and those broken individuals were clearly reacting against something, not for something.)
Theism is a set of active belief systems with rules, directions, leaders, and so forth. Atheism is not.
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Re:No. This is a complete strawman. (Score:5, Insightful)
To blame the mass killings of USSR on the imposed removal of religion and religous practice there is ridiculous. It was the work of madmen.
To say that "Atheism told him it was OK," or informs anybody of anything beyond "There are no gods," is equally absurd.
What can you tell us about the precepts and princples of this -ism which you seem to know so much about? The notions of good and evil did not, and do not, require a religion because they are obvious.
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Re:Why don't they go after the catholic church? (Score:5, Funny)
Sects, sects, sects, is that all you kids think about?
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