Brazilian Court Bans P2P Software 216
Earlier this year, at the behest of an anti-piracy group consisting of the usual suspects from the recording industry, a Brazilian court ruled that a company named Cadare Information Technology must implement a filter on the P2P software they distributed on their website to weed out copyrighted content. Cadare was unable comply with the order because they didn't develop the software; they merely offered it for download. The case went back to court, and a Brazilian judge has now decided to ban distribution of the software because it can be used to assist copyright infringement. "He went on to suggest that any website offering the software alongside advertising (i.e, trying to profit from offering it) would be committing a crime, punishable by between two and four years in jail."
Is it time.... (Score:5, Insightful)
another judge with no clue (Score:2, Insightful)
Does this mean it's still legal to download other P2P software?
What's the point of this ruling?
Why just p2p? (Score:3, Insightful)
Firefox gets used for piracy a lot too. Why not ban it?
I'm not really clear why the courts have been treating peer to peer software as different from client-server software. My best guess is that in a client-server model, they see the server as being responsible for the illegal content, but in the peer-to-peer model, they blame the software for the illegal content. Really, this doesn't make a bit of sense, especially in light of the fact that there is no technical distinction in any TCP/IP protocols which differentials which computers are "servers" from which are "clients" or "peers". It's just a model of network interaction which exists in the minds of the software developers and users.
I'm curious if this will change if and when judges understand the underlying technology better.
sheesh (Score:3, Insightful)
Ruining someone's life for 2-4 years because the Brazilian court system is dabbling in pre-crime... Kind of makes you wonder why society considers the copyright system an equitable trade...
Why just software? (Score:1, Insightful)
My God! kitchen knives can be used to assist murder...let's ban them!
Re:sheesh (Score:3, Insightful)
Scary part of it is, something just like this can happen here in the States if the Usual Suspects decide to spend the money and buy up some more Congresscritters. Why buy off a judge to get a precident set when you can just buy the Congresscritters and get the laws you want passed?
Why stop there.......... (Score:3, Insightful)
Let's ban all computers while we're at it too "because it can be used to assist copyright infringement". And without a computer I won't be able to run the software. Oh and we need to collect money everytime a person sings a song in their head. Because the record label is not being paid for the content since you heard it on the radio and just kept replaying it in your head. We'll put chips in your heads to monitor what songs you've played in your head every month and send you a bill on itunes.
Re:Why just p2p? (Score:5, Insightful)
"I'm curious if this will change if and when judges understand the underlying technology better."
Statements like this are like Chicken Soup for the Pirate's Soul. We convince ourselves that it's all because the people in charge just don't understand the technology. I completely understand; this is a much more acceptable situation than the judges understanding the technology just fine.
There's a huge disconnect here. When Napster, Kazaa, Morpheus, and most recently The Pirate Bay went down, file-sharing fans quickly pointed out that it was obviously because the legal professionals don't know what they were doing. "Just like Google!" they shouted. "A web browser is P2P! Let's ban guns, too!".
The problem is this: I've read all of the rulings (I'm kind of a nerd like that) and it's generally clear that the lawyers and the judges understand the technology just fine. They might not be able to code a P2P client themselves or even mount a Linux volume, but reading the documents makes it very clear that they know exactly how the technology works and how it's being used.
You can use Occam's Razor here: it's a hard scenario to swallow that there simply aren't enough defense lawyers who understand P2P technology. If the law really worked like so many Slashdotters think it does -- a legal world in which intent and usage aren't relevant -- then wouldn't all of these judgments be thrown out once some legal folks as smart as you took up the cases and clearly showed that it was all a matter of the judge not understanding the technology? A simple matter of a smart person explaining to the appeal court that a pirate torrent site is just like Google, a P2P client is just like a web browser?
The ironic thing here is that if you ask any lawyer with a background in copyright law, they'll be happy to explain to you exactly why TPB, etc. aren't exactly like Google and why Kazaa and Morpheus weren't just like a web browser. It's actually even pretty easy to understand by folks who don't have a JD. Yet we collective Slashdotters just continue to stamp our metaphorical feet and pine for the day when judges just understand. "Substantial non-infringing uses," "contributory infringement," "vicarious infringement" and even basic principles like mens rea whoosh past us like a late summer breeze, while we close our eyes and dream of a day when legal professionals will finally be as smart as we are.
Re:another judge with no clue (Score:4, Insightful)
It's not quite pointless. The purpose seems to be the creation of a "sacred" status for copyright law, something that would cause anyone to think twice about creating anything that might have some indirect role in copyright infringement. In other words it's designed to intimidate, which explains why no allowance seems to have been made for the fact that peer-to-peer software can also have legitimate uses, like the distribution of Linux ISOs.
From the summary:
This is like banning hammers because some murderers have used them to bludgeon people to death, or banning cars because a few criminals have used them as getaway vehicles. It also ignores the infeasibility of successfully filtering all copyrighted content in all digital forms with no false positives or false negatives. Either those judges are morons who have no idea about the glaring flaws that are easily pointed out, or the absurdity of this ruling is a deliberate component of the Machiavellian "make an example of them" style of authoritarian thinking that seems to be universally exhibited by pro-copyright interests. In fact, the same could be said of the DMCA in the USA and the legislators who supported it.
It's as logical as castrating judge (Score:3, Insightful)
Should the judge be castrated, because his penis can be used for rape?
Re:Why just p2p? (Score:3, Insightful)
So, then, explain to me why it is impossible to use Google in a way that infringes copyright.
And, if you cannot, why then it is different from these other search providers.
You are incapable of doing so.
Re:Is it time.... (Score:2, Insightful)
Lawyers breed innovation.
Would the technologies come up in the last few years if Napster wasn't banned?
Keep banning the stuff. We'll come up with something more awesome.
Re:another judge with no clue (Score:3, Insightful)
It is one thing to pirate content, it is another to make money from pirated content.
This ruling is against the second, and the title wrongly suggests that all P2P software was banned, which would not make sense. Find a pointless discussion that the way of distributing content is irrelevant below.
Re:Why just p2p? (Score:4, Insightful)
"I've yet to see one which says, "Well, this can be used for infringement, but technologically, it's no different from other programs which are not used for infringement"."
But how would that be relevant -- and more to the point, how would it help the case?
Pirate tracker sites share much of the same technology as, say, legaltorrents.com. The latter gets a pass while the pirate sites go down because of things unrelated to technology: the actions and intent of the people running them. This is one of those fundamental legal things, unrelated to the level of technical experience of the person making the judgement.
"Certainly that's been what's been behind the decision to ban "peer-to-peer software" on a lot of private networks. And yet, this same logic isn't applied to other technologies which have also been used for piracy like ftp, tftp, newsgroups or http."
Because it's irrelevant. It's about actions and intent. And we should acknowledge the people who have been busted for serving up pirated files via http and ftp.
"The judges aren't idiots. They have a basic understand of what's going on and how these programs work, but they don't have a deep understanding of how the internet actual works. If they did, at least some of the decisions would have to be written quite differently."
Well, to be fair, your belief is a common one among Slashdotters: the problem is not that we don't sufficiently understand copyright law, but that nobody in authority -- not one person -- sufficiently understands the technology. If they did, then they'd throw out all of this "actions" and "intent" and "safe harbor" and "substantial non-infringing uses" mumbo jumbo and simply understand that since a warez tracker or Kazaa trades packets in much the same way as other technologies, then the operators can't be held liable.
Re:Why just p2p? (Score:4, Insightful)
Invent an efficient file transfer mechanism... one that can beat the efficiency of anything invented so far, and if it ever happens to catch on with any legitimate community, I can guarantee that it will also be appropriated by people who do not give regard for copyright, and in short order its predominant use would be for illegitimate file sharing.
Links to more illegal software (Score:3, Insightful)
Can't let you communicate that, Dave (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Why just p2p? (Score:3, Insightful)
"The truly fear and depression induced thing about Slashdot, is just how many of its' readers appear to have drunk the government or corporate Kool-Aid with regard to things like copyright, and actively defend and advocate the government/cartel position."
Don't look at me. I think copyright terms and (in particular) statutory limits are hugely of control. Understanding how something works certainly isn't drinking Kool-Aid. I'm agnostic about piracy; I certainly did enough of it when I was a teenager.
Disliking copyright law is no excuse for not understanding it. Notice how the same arguments keep coming up and Slashdotters keep getting surprised? The "it's just like Google" fallacy has been around for as long as Google itself, and yet people are still surprised that it's not a magic bullet.
The state of self-serving, willful ignorance of the basics of copyright law is pretty sad. If file-sharing enthusiasts want to change the law, first they must understand it. Tilting at windmills and counting on loopholes that only exist in the collective imagination of the file-sharing community won't help.
Re:Links to more illegal software (Score:2, Insightful)
The Blizzard WOW updater is a bittorrent client. So the main way of downloading those sometimes massive patches is illegal .
Re:sheesh (Score:3, Insightful)
when the law starts making tools illegal rather than going after the "crime" it becomes pre-crime: presumption of guilt by possession regardless of actual guilt. anyone that uses WOW, linux isos, ADV anime promotional materials (they use p2p to avertise their material), distribution of public domain/creative commons material etc. will lose out because the legal system chose to set a catch all trap to stop the evil pirates. the problem is that it is ineffective, feeds contempt for the law and negatively impacts people few or not that use p2p for its legal uses. it has gotten to the point where it isn't enough for these companies to sue actual infringers, now they're going after potential infringers wholesale. there is no justice in that, it is indefensible.
Re:Why just p2p? (Score:3, Insightful)
I think I'll play Devil's Advocate: Suppose someone made a car with bulletproof bodywork, a battering ram, and forward-mounted oxy-acetylene cutting torches. And then marketed it at people who "wanted to make some out-of-hours withdrawals from their local bank". Sure, you could use it to get the weekly shopping in, but you'd have a hard time arguing that such was the intention behind the vehicle.
That would seem to be closer to the mark in this case.
Re:Is it time.... (Score:5, Insightful)
Not really, no. This story is not about 'American capitalism', unless you want to add Brazil as a state to the Union which I'm sure they'd be less than happy about.
If you see an economy as an organism you'll see that that economy/that organism suffers from some of the same ailments as a live organism. As soon as the organism gets successful there will be parasites which try to hop along for the ride, taking from the organism without giving back. The world economy is quite successful in most part, which has lead to the rise of a whole host of parasitic species. Some of them are easily recognized as they are the common class of criminal, from pickpocket to burglar to bank robber. Others are not as easily recognized because they have both adapted to the host as well as changed the host to make themselves be unrecognizable. In the latter class is where you'll find those lawyers, the bonus-grabbing old boy network, the self-serving politicians and other leaches.
In an organism you can act in several ways to combat a parasite infestation. You can try to kill the parasites, help the organism's immune system to recognize them and thus indirectly kill them or you can try to make the organism a less hospitable host to the parasite.
It is clear that the first option is not a choice in a civilized society. The second and third choices would be usable though: point out the parasites to society and change society to be less hospitable to them. As the parasite infestation is very deep and wide, especially in those organs of society which are responsible for directing the immune system (politics and law) this will be a hard task. Hard, but not impossible. Not all organs are infested, find out which have yet held the parasites at bay and use those to eradicate them from the rest. That is easier said than done but is seems the only way to clear out the mess without killing the organism, the civilized society which we want to live in.
Re:Is it time.... (Score:4, Insightful)
how do we differ them from the common businessman?
Is this really a problem?
Re:another judge with no clue (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Is it time.... (Score:5, Insightful)
[rant] Noticed how 2/3 of slashdot news today is about the legality aspect of one thing or the other ? Noticed how we spend more time on the issues of free speech, copyright violation, net neutrality than on actual coding ? The cool stuff is out, the dull is in. Granted, a coder, a hacker, a security expert, has to know some legal things, but it should not waste half of our time. Life is too short for this. Increasingly it feels like knowing the law bears little correlation to not being charged and that rational thinking and common sense bears far less importance in the judicial system. I wish we were spending less time being concerned on these issues and we could keep focus on nifty reverse engineering projects or amateurish robotics. I guess what I am trying to say is
FUCK. THIS. SHIT.
[/rant]