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Comments: 250 +- Your Rights Online: Tracking Stolen Gadgets — Manufacturers' New Dilemma on Friday September 11, @08:59PM
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heptapod sends in a story from the NY Times about a growing problem for the makers of high-tech gadgets: deciding when and how it's appropriate to track a stolen device. With the advent of ubiquitous GPS and connections to services like the Kindle book store, the companies frequently have a way to either narrow down a user's location or impede use of the device. But some, like Amazon, are drawing a hard line when it comes to establishing that the device was actually stolen.
"Samuel Borgese, for instance, is still irate about the response from Amazon when he recently lost his Kindle. After leaving it on a plane, he canceled his account so that nobody could charge books to his credit card. Then he asked Amazon to put the serial number of his wayward device on a kind of do-not-register list that would render it inoperable — to 'brick it' in tech speak. Amazon's policy is that it will help locate a missing Kindle only if the company is contacted by a police officer bearing a subpoena. Mr. Borgese, who lives in Manhattan, questions whether hunting down a $300 e-book reader would rank as a priority for the New York Police Department."
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Street justice? (Score:2, Interesting)
Mr. Borgese, who lives in Manhattan, questions whether hunting down a $300 e-book reader would rank as a priority for the New York Police Department.
If that's the case, then what does he hope to achieve by finding out the location of the Kindle? Rhetorical question -- we all know what he hopes to achieve, and Amazon wants no part of it.
Re:Street justice? (Score:5, Insightful)
Mr. Borgese, who lives in Manhattan, questions whether hunting down a $300 e-book reader would rank as a priority for the New York Police Department.
If that's the case, then what does he hope to achieve by finding out the location of the Kindle? Rhetorical question -- we all know what he hopes to achieve, and Amazon wants no part of it.
If you had bothered to read the entire quote, he did *not* ask for Amazon's help in finding the Kindle - what he asked them to do was *disable* it. Which has some merit - if Amazon did disable those devices when stolen, it would kill the black market for stolen Kindles. But as noted in TFA, this poses a problem, as it's too easy for someone to contact them, pretending to be you, and reporting *your* Kindle as stolen...
What *should* happen is that Mr. Borgese files a police report on the stolen Kindle, and can then contact Amazon, with the police report number as evidence that he's not some practical joker. Amazon then disables that device, so that whoever stole it (or whoever bought it from the thief) can no longer gain the benefit of having it. This reduces the potential for mischief (and, in the case that the person simply misplaced the device, puts the onus on *him* to reverse the process), while still destroying the resale value of the stolen item.
This is more or less what Mr. Borgese attempted to do. But Amazon has no mechanism for this - they want to be contacted by a law enforcement officer with a supoena. Which the police probably won't bother doing, unless the theft is tied to drug dealing, terrorism, pedophilia, or whatever BS is high on their public relations agenda this week.
Lloyd B.
Parent
Re:Street justice? (Score:5, Insightful)
Why not just provide a way to disable the kindle that is associated with an amazon account until that same account enables it again? Then I can disable it if I left it somewhere.. if I recover it, I can enable it. No one else can. The kindle should not say what the name of the account is or anything that the thieves can use to identify what account to try to hack in to either. There shouldn't need to be any human involvement in here, I've already authenticated who I am by being able to login (with a password, auto-login should not be sufficient).
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Obviously this assumes that 1) Currently unbricked kindles can be re-associated with a different account, and 2) The person it was stolen from can still brick a kindle even after re-association for a period of time, in case the first thing the thief does is re-associate it. Say, 48 hours to report your kindle stolen to Amazon, and they'll still disable it [and remove any charges made to your account, if that's possible from the Kindle, etc.].
Re:Street justice? (Score:5, Interesting)
Ideally they should just force you to authenticate with your existing account before you can disassociate/re-associate the device.
E.g. the moment you click 'disassociate', the device actually becomes bricked until the device password is entered.
When you associate with a new account, the password you type becomes the 'device' password.
There ought to also be a way to password-lock the kindle as you can with cell phones. And they should take care to make sure a thief can't easily defeat the device password.
Parent
Re:Street justice? (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re:Street justice? (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
It just proves yet again that anything like DRM or 'trusted computing' has nothing to do with providing benefit to the consumer, even in the few cases where it might in theory be useful.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
But as noted in TFA, this poses a problem, as it's too easy for someone to contact them, pretending to be you, and reporting *your* Kindle as stolen...
This is such bunk... I worked for a couple years in customer service for the cell phone industry. If you call and report your phone lost or stolen, it is automatically added to a black list and can then only be reactivated by you. It can not be activated on another account while it is on the black list and can only be added to the black list if it is part of an active account. The only time you need a police report is if you have the insurance program and you want to get a replacement under the insuran
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Here in the UK carriers block stolen phones from their IMEI all the time, and have a cross-carrier list of such phones.
Re:Street justice? (Score:5, Insightful)
You actually think that they have no record of a serial number of the device that your account is linked to?
How would they send you the books you purchased? Your account is tied to the device so you can use it.
That's not any more "tracking" than your cell phone company does to give you the calls to your cell phone.
They have "activated" it to be tied to your account.
Just as Amazon should be able to have the accout owner log in online and enter in their username/password and validate a captcha to disable ther device.
They purchased it didn't they? It's tied to their credit card to be able to buy books with it right? So If you can make a binding purchase with the devices authentication and that is enough for them to charge your credit card, isn't it enough verification for them to disable the device?
Parent
Bottom Line (Score:3, Insightful)
Buy a $3 paperback book. Be kind and leave it for the next person.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Here let me fix that for you.
Buy a $10 paperback book. Be kind and leave it for the next person.
police (Score:2, Insightful)
the police barely respond to car theft
how would you prove (Score:5, Insightful)
the device was really stolen an no sold used
Re:how would you prove (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re:how would you prove (Score:5, Insightful)
Same with any electronic device that can be remotely disabled. Wouldn't it be a bitch if I called onStar and said "Oooh, hey buddy. My car got stolen, here is my name, license plate # and my onStar ID(blah blah)" and they kill the car. But its not my car, its my ex's... I'm sure she would get a kick out of it
Parent
Re:how would you prove (Score:5, Insightful)
> Wouldn't it be a bitch if I called onStar and said "Oooh, hey buddy
Stolen cars show up in police reports.
So would you if you pulled this stunt.
Parent
Re:how would you prove (Score:5, Insightful)
I wish I had mod points, because this is exactly the issue. Let's say someone puts their Kindle up on eBay, and then after it sells calls Amazon and says that the device got stolen. How is Amazon supposed to know whether the device whether the device was stolen or not? Even worse, what happens if Amazon believes someone claiming to own your device and bricks it, where does that put them? It's entirely reasonable that Amazon won't do anything without a direct request from the cops (or presumably a court order).
That's the role a police report should play. When you file a report with the police, the police report number can be given to Amazon as evidence that an actual theft occurred. Amazon can then query the police to verify the report is genuine (insurance companies do this all the time in the case of auto accidents, theft of insured property, etc, so the mechanisms for this are already in place), and once they've done that can disable the device.
In your Ebay example, what would happen then is that the buyer of the now useless device could contact your police department, with the records of the sale, and you'd potentially be facing criminal charges for filing a false police report (cops *really* don't like people doing this, and they know where you live, so there's a real chance they'd follow up on this).
Parent
Re:how would you prove (Score:4, Insightful)
Don't you think cops have more to do than fill out paper work on a kindle you lost? Even if it was Stolen out of your back pack, who has time to have cops filling out paperwork for a 300 dollar device?
You might get away with filing such a report in Pincushion Arizona, but they will laugh you out of the station in Dallas.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Don't you think cops have more to do than fill out paper work on a kindle you lost?
Better? No. More lucrative? Probably.
The cops are supposed to be there to provide for the punishment of criminals (protect and serve? they do neither) and finding them is part of that job. So no, they don't have anything better to do than to fill out paperwork on something possibly stolen. People usually don't lose something the size and cost of the Kindle.
Require a police report (Score:3, Interesting)
how would you prove the device was really stolen an no sold used
You do what they do for passports: you require a police record indicating that you have reported it stolen. That way if the person you track down did not steal it the person who lied to you can end up in hot water for lying to the police, wasting police time etc. plus you have a reasonable defence.
Of course the better way to do it is the way that Apple does with the iPhone: you let the user trace their own device without company intervention. That way the end-user is directly responsible provided that th
Presumably (Score:4, Interesting)
He bought it from them and they have the serial number of the device they sent him. Why should it be a big deal for them to brick it on HIS request? If there's an issue with whoever wants to use it, it's between the other user and him, not him and Amazon.
Then again, I can understand how they wouldn't want to get into something where they don't know the gory details (i.e. he sold it and wants to ransom it for more money).
Seems like there might be a niche market here for a service to track (possibly using add-in 'root' software) high-end devices that are stolen.
Me, I don't have enough money that I can afford to forget and leave a $300 device laying around on an airplane... :-P
Re: (Score:2, Interesting)
Why should it be a big deal for them to brick it on HIS request? If there's an issue with whoever wants to use it, it's between the other user and him, not him and Amazon.
And what's the issue? He's mad because he left it on the table when we went up to the counter to get another latté?
I get it. Theft is bad. But how is bricking the device the answer? It won't un-steal the Kindle. So they brick it and what then? It goes into a landfill? Charming.
Re: (Score:2)
...and Amazon isn't in the business of such things. They service of bricking even your own devices isn't teh service being offered. They'd have parents wanting to brick children's toys within a week's time. Besides, I think Amazon handled it incredibly well. They'll obey law enforcement. Beyond that, the ability to brick the device isn't a consumer feature. Sorry.
Why should they? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Why should they? (Score:5, Insightful)
well they don't WANT you to locate it. They WANT you to buy another one...
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
You, sir, just won the whole thread.
Very well pointed out and executed, great capitalization and the end, the ellipses, GENIUS.
But yeah, very good point.
Re: (Score:2)
If someone steals your car, do you call the car manufacturer and ask them to disable the car remotely so no one can drive it?
Some high-end car manufacturers offer this kind of service. And who knows, maybe this story will make Amazon think they can sell Premium packages, for people who are willing to pay more for the guarantee that they'll track down your Kindle if you leave it on a bus.
Re:Why should they? (Score:5, Insightful)
No, you have the police call OnStar and they disable it...
The surprising thing for me is that the companies that have this capability and are resisting this are missing an opportunity to make a lot of money on what some people obviously think is a valuable service.
Parent
Re:Why should they? Because they win loyalty (Score:4, Interesting)
Parent
Re: (Score:2)
I mean, seriously. Why should companies like Amazon, Apple, Microsoft, Dell, HP, or any manufacturer spend any amount of time helping to track down your stolen property to begin with.
For the same reason a company may provide services above and beyond what they technically *have* to... it builds customer loyalty. It's up to them to decide whether that's worth more than the potential hassle of dealing with issues like these.
Personally, I suspect it's for fear of lawsuits. Generally speaking, in this country, it seems like it's almost always safer to *do nothing* rather than trying to do the "right thing", which is sort of a sad state of affairs.
Re: (Score:2)
Why? Simple. Conflict of interest, and the appearance of impropriety. They stand to make money from the thief (or whoever they fence it to, or whoever the fence sells it to). They will make money from stolen goods. This is not the case for products that do not have on-going service charges applied. This appears to be a conflict of interest between them and their primary customers.
By helping track down a device reported stolen, they can appear to be above base profit motives, and, instead, appear to he
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Re: (Score:2)
Or take a look at it this way. I could sell the device, and just to be a prick,report it stolen to the manufacture. It would
On the other hand... (Score:2, Insightful)
If Amazon sells you an e-Book on your precious Kindle, they will steal it back from you if the publisher changes their mind about selling an electronic version.
Seems Sensible (Score:4, Insightful)
I also can't imagine the police ignoring a request like that. Even if it's a $300.00 device, I've never met a cop who won't pursue a theft if they think it's likely they'll catch the perpetrator and recover the item. For all the police's faults, ignoring a solvable, easily-prosecuted crime ain't one of 'em. Mind you, if a company won't cooperate with a police request relating to an investigation - subpoena or no - the company should be prosecuted itself.
Re:Seems Sensible (Score:5, Insightful)
You've apparently never tried to report a stolen wallet or backpack, or even modest laptop. You fill out forms, answer questions,a nd they do _nothing_. It's just not important enough.
Parent
Not Bricking Makes Little Sense (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
Choosing family (Score:2)
$300 Value is nothing (Score:2)
High end devices should come with a user url (Score:2, Interesting)
I think they should track (Score:4, Interesting)
Last year I absentmindedly left my GPS and Cellphone in the car (was running late to work). About an hour later I realized I didn't have my Cell on me and went out to the car to retrieve it. Lo and behold my TomTom 920T GPS, and my Motorola Q9c were both gone and the window in my car was smashed out. Rough retail value of the phone and gps together were around the $1000.00 range. The police came and took a report, I even actually still had the boxes for both units with the serial numbers. I've not heard anything since.
What really irks me is that I know for certain that the Cell Phone should be traceable. At least the police could have called Verizon and checked to see if it showed up in any of the 50-100 pawn shops in town. We're not talking major investigate work here, we're talking about what should be a 10-20min call. I called TomTom and also asked them if they could at least make it where that unit will never get an update.. they said it was a feature that many have requested, but at this point in time they didn't offer that.
I know that there are more important things like murders, etc.. but hey they had to take the time to take the report, could at least do a little diligence.
Don't shut it off! (Score:5, Insightful)
The person currently able to login to the Amazon account claims to have purchased lost the device.
Amazon doesn't know if he's sold it, given it away
Amazon doesn't know if someone else logged into his account (ex-partner/significant other?)
Amazon doesn't know if the device was repossessed by a credit card company.
Amazon doesn't have anywhere near enough information to start bricking, or reporting on the location of devices.
Their reluctance is bunk!!!!! (Score:5, Interesting)
You know how much work this took on my part? Very little - this fell under "other duties" while I worked there, and I was the only person at the time who worked these. The vendors like Amazon are refusing to help seeing only an expense and a loss of sales. This sheer and utter greed on their part with justifiable reason. If they can't do this because it's the right thing, than somebody needs to legislate good companies morals on their part.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Generally speaking vehicular theft is seen as high priority in the police. When's the last time you saw footage of six police cars chasing down a pick pocket?
In this case it's not even about someone picking someone else's pockets - it's the crew noticing something left behind on the plane and thinking "I'm having that".
Better change... (Score:3, Insightful)
Before you go into "senior" years, and you start forgetting things left and right and your eyesight goes.
Otherwise, you will be very busy explaining all those attacks on innocent people to the cops.
That is, until you come across another 19-year-old buck who, just like you, won't take no shit from anyone - and he beats you to death.
And then ends up in prison for murder.
Wasn't Darwin a great guy?