Microsoft Drops Windows 7 E Editions

A week after Microsoft agreed to include a browser ballot screen in Windows 7 systems sold in Europe, then announced that those systems would initially include no browser at all — specifically, no Internet Explorer — Microsoft has changed its mind again and dropped talk of a European Windows 7 E edition. Here is the official Microsoft blog announcement, which includes a screen shot of the proposed ballot screen. The browsers are listed left-to-right in order of market share, with IE therefore having pride of place. PC Pro notes that, since the ballot screen would not appear if IE were not pre-installed, Microsoft's proposal opens the door for Google to work with PC manufacturers to get Chrome on new machines. Note that the browser ballot screen has not yet been accepted by the EU, though the initial reaction to it was welcoming.

Better way to go

[sopssa]

This does look like a good way to go, and its good they also list the main features of every browser. This way more users also get to see how good Opera is too. However to make the list completely unbiased, they could randomize the order on every page load.

Seeing it uses IE to download the browser you want, have they made it so that IE gets removed after that too?

Isn't it time to drop the bill gates borg icon??!!

[Anonymous Coward]

That joke has long past its expiration date; Bill Gates isn't at Microsoft anymore (on a regular basis), the Borg is from a tv show that ended over 15 years ago.

It's like using the Edsel to represent Ford, its just old and stale. time for slashdot to get with the times.

Re:Obsolete

[antifoidulus]

The most important thing is being able to remove the browser(and I mean really remove it) so it doesn't have it's hooks so deep in the OS that its impossible to get out. If they would just allow users to do that, then I think they should be able to ship whatever browser(s) they want with the system.

Re:Obsolete

[RedK]

The cost of the browser is not the issue, the control over what technologies get used on the Web is. Microsoft have proven that they don't want to play fair, by ignoring standards for so long and promoting their proprietary stuff. If Microsoft were to have a really poor market share, they'd have to write all their stuff for the open web, respecting standards so that everything works for every user. If they have 90% of all users on their platform, they can make sure that the other 10% are stuck trying to be compatible. This is basically what IE6 was and what IE represents. Their browser might be free as in beer to the user, but the indirect costs are enormous.

Re:Obsolete

[dgatwood]

That's not really feasible for lots of reasons, starting with the fact that thousands of apps use the IE rendering engine for displaying help content and other web content. It isn't possible to remove the engine without breaking all of those apps, and it isn't feasible to expect other browsers to conform to a programming API sufficiently to make it feasible for multiple engines to be supported for those purposes. You can certainly make it possible to remove the browser, but that basically means removing a tiny thin browser shell that's probably only tens of kilobytes of code. In other words, it's a pointless token gesture.

Re:Obsolete

[RedK]

It's far from pointless. People don't browse the web using a rendering engine, they use a browser. An HTML rendering engine is useless on its own. People need a way to tell the rendering engine what pages to load and render and a way to store caches, cookies, etc.. Leave the rendering engine on the system for help files, display in other apps, etc... that doesn't matter at all. As long as people are free to choose what they browse the web with, you remove Microsoft's dominance over web technologies and web evolution and that is the true goal.

Re:Obsolete

[Anonymous Coward]

It's anti-competitive because Opera has bitched to the EU that if only people knew about Opera, they would use it instead of Internet Explorer. Because no one knows that there is an alternative to Internet Explorer .... Or to Firefox.... Or to Safari.... Or to Chrome. Nope, if only people knew of the wonderful world of Opera. Why, they could go back to selling it instead of being forced to give it away!

Re:Obsolete

[sammyF70]

You assume most people actually KNOW there are free browsers (or even that they know what an "internet browser" is). That's sadly as far removed from reality as it can be.

Most people don't even know what Internet Explorer *IS*, for them, the IE icon means that they load up the internet (no... they don't connect. why would they connect? it's in .. aeh .. the thing under the table ... the harddrive!). If you tell them "you should use chrome, it's faster" or "you should use Firefox, it can do more stuff" or even "you should use anything but IE, as IE is a PoS" they'll look at you with big glassy eye and answer "but .. but ... I need Ze Internet!".

That's why having the ballot screen is a good thing : it tells the unknowing masses that there are alternatives. Now ... if we could have something similar for the bundled 30-days trials of MS Office and Norton ... (my wish would actually be that those wouldn't be bundled at all ... but that's probably completely unrealistic.)

Re:Isn't it time to drop the bill gates borg icon?

[RedK]

Actually, as long as Microsoft keep pushing their one-vendor lock-in agenda, the icon is appropriate and not past its due date. When Microsoft becomes a beacon of openess that respects diversity, then the icon should be changed. The Borgs represent uniformity and control. Exactly what Microsoft stands for.

In Germany...

[antikristian]

Will firefox get the prime position?

Re:Better way to go

[Brian Gordon]

they could randomize the order

Realistically, people aren't going to react well seeing a wall of unfamiliar names and being asked to make an informed choice. Most people just want to know what everyone else is using and then they'll pick one of those. We don't want users confused over some random browser they don't understand; that would be worse than making everyone use IE. The point is letting the users choose, not a mass exodus from IE.

Re:Isn't it time to drop the bill gates borg icon?

[jpmorgan]

Then where's the Steve Jobs borg?

Re:Isn't it time to drop the bill gates borg icon?

[MathiasRav]

I agree - lets change it to a flying chair.

This was modded Funny when it is in fact an awesome suggestion.

Re:Wait, what?

[xlsior]

What makes me wonder tho, is the IE removed after installing another browser?

They've said (when announcing the 'E' versions) that it would not come with the browser front-end, but that the back-end rendering engine would still be there since so many other applications depend on it. So I guess it's more hidden than actually removed.

Re:Obsolete

[Rockoon]

This reaks completely of "I.E. had no competition *sniff* so they didnt release new versions *sniff* so web developers dealt with what was available *sniff* but now there is competition *sniff* but IE is still buggy *sniff* make them develop products for me for free *sniff* and it better be the way I want *sniff* waaaaaaah!"

You went on and on about free software released in 2001, which wasnt updated for free like you wanted, for 5 years. It didn't have any more proprietary extensions than Netscape did (both were found, in court, the use lots of them) and it was in fact more standards-compliant than Netscape was. People cry about IE6's poor CSS support, but compared to NN6's CSS support its a laughable comparison.. NN6 crashed practically every time it saw even basic CSS.

So you are crying foul that a MORE-standards-complient browser when it was released wasn't updated for 5 years, for free for you to enjoy, at the expense of the shareholders of Microsoft.

I am almost certain that you werent even on the web at the time.. because you obviously don't know that about half the web had a little icon that said "Best viewed with Netscape Navigator['s proprietary extensions]"

Re:Better way to go

[idamaybrown]

Most users don't want Opera and after the ballot goes into effect, they still won't want Opera. Only way for Opera to gain market share is for them to make the government force users to use their browser over Firefox, Chrome, IE, etc.

Re:missing option

[Anonymous Coward]

[x] Remove Windows 7 and install an OS that forces all my programs to close when the god damn fucking X server crashes or requires a reboot after locking up.

It doesn't matter

[Anonymous Coward]

It doesn't matter which browser is installed from the install disk. Most users don't install from the install disk anyway. What matters is which browsers the OEMs will put on the machine, and which they will make the default. Even if Microsoft made an IE-free version of windows Dell and HP and everyone else would still install IE on the machines before selling it to customers.

Re:Wait, what?

[Ilgaz]

Which heroic OEM will dare to exclude IE from their Windows? Don't state some unknown brands please. I speak about HP, Lenovo, Dell sized OEMs.

There is no way an OEM will dare to exclude Microsoft's browser and drive them nuts.

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Re:Isn't it time to drop the bill gates borg icon?

[Joe Jay Bee]

No, it wouldn't. Even MS haters have to admit that the chair jokes are wearing incredibly thin. It was funny for a while, now it's just... dull.

Re:Obsolete

[Anonymous Coward]

Only a Microsoft shill or troll would believe that people actually choose Windows. Windows as been imposed on the whole population through vendor lock-in and monopoly abuse. This has been tried and proven twice already. Microsoft today doesn't need its tactics of old to get Windows on all computers, they just have to prevent user education. This is as worse as when they would threaten OEMs to ship Windows and only Windows or have their right to even ship Windows be revoked.

Thanks for speaking for me RedK. Here I was sitting with Win7 RC and liking it better than both OSX and the Linux distros I have tried, for my use. That is I did, until you put me straight and told me what I like or not like, how to think correctly. I also thought I remembered experiencing Win311, Win95 and NT 3.51 as big improvements in my daily computer use and preferable over the alternatives at the time -- including that I really didn't like early MacOS (we had a publishing department at work, not a good IT experience those machines..), OS/2 (which I tried for a while as my main os but found overrated, good technical merits sure, but lots of problems in practice, for me) or early Red Hat (my first meeting with Linux was about '95, and I thought at the time I strongly prefered Windows to the alternatives, how silly of me -- where were you doing my thinking for me then RedK?!?!)

I call bullshit

[zephris]

"the ballot screen would not appear if IE were not pre-installed" What a bunch of shit. Someone who's supposed to be an authority on the issue is claiming that it absolutely MUST be IE displaying it. You don't need to have a full featured browser (or a browser of any kind) to display this kind of ballot screen. Just a connection or a collection of installable browsers. The ballot can be a normal windows app.

Re:Better way to go

[Winckle]

Realistically, people aren't going to react well seeing a wall of unfamiliar names and being asked to make an informed choice.

Why not? They do it every election year.

Re:How is this possible after RTM?

[JohnBailey]

Microsoft had announced that they had an RTM version, and now they make such a profound change. This is really odd. Is there any good explanation? Have they a separate, decoupled RTM process for the European versions? Has there never been a "Windows 7 E"? And how much would it cost to get something adware-infested into the browser selection screen?

What profound change? A single change to the set of pre installed apps that the installer checks, a simple chooser screen set to autorun and that is it. It's about as profound as changing the default wallpaper.

Re:Isn't it time to drop the bill gates borg icon?

[roc97007]

A company icon is representative of a company's philosophy -- their actions over a long period of time. Under Gates, the borg symbol doesn't stop being germane simply because time has passed.

Parenthetically, it's not the age of the reference, but how well it's stayed in the collective mind. You could say "I'll get you, my pretty!" and most people would get it, even though the reference is over 70 years old.

Ballmer's tantrums are well known, and not confined just to the single chair incident. But the chair is a reference that most people in the geek world would get, so as long as he's in office and exhibits those characteristics, it fits.

Personally, I'd use a 1" #8 wood screw, shown actual size, but I'm willing to compromise on a flying chair.

Re:Wait

[petermgreen]

Then I bet they would be in a very similar position to where MS is now with antitrust suits aimed at them.

But they aren't and they probablly won't be in the forseeable future. They seem content to stay in the luxury market.

Re:Wait

[Kalriath]

People need to stop modding this shit as insightful. Explorer isn't based on Internet Explorer either.

What you perceive as Safari is two components: Safari, and WebKit. WebKit is something you can't remove from Mac OS, as the shell would die horribly without it. You can happily drag Safari to the trash.

What you perceive as Internet Explorer is two components: Internet Explorer, and Trident. Trident is something you can't remove from Windows, as the shell would die horribly without it. You can happily drag Internet Explorer to the recycle bin (with one caveat: Windows will try replace it without some coaxing).

As you can see, the Safari and Internet Explorer arguments are one and the same, and people need to stop pretending that the Mac OS setup is somehow different.

I would want to choke someone if it was random

[Sycraft-fu]

Being a computer support professional, I do a LOT of Windows installs. One of the things that makes it quicker/easier is that you know what to expect where. So you can quickly click past setup screens. In the case of this screen, I want it in a set order. That way, I can quickly find the browser I want to set as default on that particular system. If it got randomized, it would slow things down and/or cause mistakes.

The order doesn't really matter, so long as there is one. This is actually a fairly intelligent way of doing it: The larger the market share of a browser, the more probable it is that someone will want to use that browser as their default.

Re:Isn't it time to drop the bill gates borg icon?

[davidbrit2]

Nah, Steve Jobs with Hypnotoad eyes would be more appropriate.

Re:Isn't it time to drop the bill gates borg icon?

[Machtyn]

That's flippin' awesome! Good Job. Here's one vote for the new Microsoft icon. Of course, I like the BillGatesBorg icon, too.

Lies, damn lies and statistics

[gsasha]

Interesting that IE8s dialog for choosing a search engine to replace bing (in addition to being utterly confusing), manages to list Google almost the last.

So, in every case they choose a different ranking function, one that suits them. But of course, who would expect otherwise...

The real problem with this solution...

[Anonymous Coward]

...is that by using Internet Explorer as a means of displaying this ballot, you actually have to opt-out for IE and opt-in for any other browser. This is not giving the people unbiased choice.

What would have been a satisfactory solution would be to display this ballot on a browser-agnostic screen on first run, default to "no browser" and opt-in on any, or any number of browsers the end-user prefers (including IE). That way they avoid being accused of illegal tying and at the same time give the end user fair choice.

I'm no microsoft fan for sure, but I would welcome a microsoft that would be willing to actually compete fairly...

Re:I would want to choke someone if it was random

[mmclean]

Can you really call yourself a computer support "professional" if you are doing a LOT of Windows installs? There are these concepts called disk imaging and Windows Deployment Services (and a host of others, google is your friend) that are far more time-efficient and computer technician efficient than "a LOT of Windows installs". Might I suggest that the proper use of these tools is what distinguishes a professional from a monkey pushing the buttons in response to the visual stimuli.