EU May Allow US To Keep Snooping On European Bank Data 206
zaphod2 alerts us to a storm brewing in Europe over access by US intelligence agencies to EU banking data. There is considerable opposition in Europe to extending this access. The submitter adds, "I wonder how long it takes until gambling, online games, or non-RIAA-approved music shops are considered supporters of terrorism." "US anti-terror officials want to be able to continue examining Europeans' financial transactions, and it appears likely that the European Union is going to comply. ... The US has been examining transactions handled by the Society for Worldwide Interbank Financial Transactions (SWIFT) since the 9/11 attacks... However, SWIFT, which is located in Belgium, is planning to move its servers and database — which is currently located in the US — to Europe. With data privacy laws far stricter in Europe, the US would then need permission from the EU before it could gain access to this sensitive information."
Are we civilized here? (Score:2, Insightful)
There are rules on civilization, and one is privacy. Maybe it will be a good idea to let then see one bank account, If a judge able it, but not at random... that would be outlawdish!
Terrorism has fully achieved its objective (Score:5, Insightful)
We protect the rights of our citizens... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:As long as someone does it. (Score:5, Insightful)
There is already a police in EU countries, you know. Unfortunately direct access to EU financial data can be used for industry espionage by US companies. And it is far more likely than next terrorists attacks in US.
The EU is a totalitarian government (Score:5, Insightful)
The sad thing is, things that invade our privacy and violate our basic rights are passed in a non-democratic way. The part of the EU government that is actually elected by the people, has absolutely no say in these matters. They are outraged but powerless.
The EU is a "great" tool for oppression and more powerful governments. Basically everything that no national government would be able to put into a law, can be done in the EU. There is no such a thing as this annoying democratic process.
Re:Its OK though (Score:5, Insightful)
And who decides what is terrorist acts?
I for one would not want US government to access my financial activity. Not because I am a terrorist but simply because I do not want a foreign government to breach my privacy. A court order that allows MY government agencies to snoop is OK though.
And as the post says. how long before US considers perfectly legal and reasonable acts to be terrorist acts?? Or for that matter simple petty crime to be terrorist acts.
Furthermore... I am not so sure I want America to police the world unrestrained. Considering that it could easily be argued that US is not democratic (remember that GWB was appointed by a court that ordered the counting of votes stopped). Considering that it is a country that kills it's citizens. Considering that it holds prisoners without due court proceedings.
Re:We protect the rights of our citizens... (Score:5, Insightful)
No we don't.
FISA - Wiretapping. No longer was probable cause criminal wrongdoing suspicion, had to show special court that person was maybe foreign agent. Originally made so that evidence collected was not used in criminal prosecutions.
Right to Financial Privacy Act (1978) - Transfers the ownership of financial records from person to the bank.
National Security Letter (1978) - Self-written search warrant (no judge). Allows government to go to financial institutions, ie bank to get the records the bank now "owns". Also put a gag order on bank from telling you (although that was overturned in Doe vs Ashcroft in 2008). May have been circumvented by now (shrugs). Carter ordered it may not be used in criminal prosecution.
US Patriot Act - Changes definition of Financial Institution to include Post Office, your lawyer, your doctor, etc. Anybody served a national security letter put under gag order.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_to_Financial_Privacy_Act [wikipedia.org]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Security_Letter [wikipedia.org]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USA_PATRIOT_Act [wikipedia.org]
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2659761702659115038&ei=tMZuSp_4CJXnlQffprFu&q=napolitano&hl=en [google.com]
Re:Its OK though (Score:3, Insightful)
Well, America is all about freedom, anyway; Freedom to spy foreign citizens & businesses; freedom to bear arms; freedom of markets; freedom to initiate preemptive wars; freedom to sue and be sued over petty annoyances; freedom to lobby... Lots of freedom.
U.S. government invades and bombs for profit. (Score:5, Insightful)
There is no "we". The violence of the U.S. government has not benefited U.S. citizens. If you got in the way of the controlling groups, they would kill you, delt0r, and your family.
The "anti-terror" is only a smokescreen. The U.S. government spends more money on surveillance and war than any country in the history of the world. That taxpayer money partly helps some people profit, for example: House of Bush, House of Saud [amazon.com], and hurts U.S. taxpayers.
The U.S. government has invaded or bombed 25 countries since the 2nd world war [evergreen.edu]. Most or all of the interference was for profit. Quote: '... although nearly all the post-World War II interventions were carried out in the name of "freedom" and "democracy," nearly all of them in fact defended dictatorships controlled by pro-U.S. elites' The dictators pay the corrupters, of course.
U.S. citizens don't want to believe that their government is as corrupt as it is, even though the recent financial corruption has made many of them poor.
Re:The EU is a totalitarian government (Score:2, Insightful)
You are partly right. But as soon as anyone tries to give the EP more power at the cost of the Council, the same people who scream about the "democratic deficit" start screaming about federalism (technically, I suppose this is correct, as a stronger EP will be at the cost of the member states, and thus federalism).
I do sincerely now hope that the Lisbon treaty will be ratified by the Irish, since it will give more say to the EP, maybe the EP will be able to stop this if the ratification is done.
Re:Misleading (Score:5, Insightful)
They're letting another country snoop on their citizen's financial transactions. Sounds like they're being subordinated to me.
Re:The EU is a totalitarian government (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Its OK though (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Are we civilized here? (Score:3, Insightful)
The economy is George W. Bush's fault
You had me going till this.
Tell me, do you work for Fox News?
Re:Its OK though (Score:5, Insightful)
It's funny that they have so much vigilance, but they can't stop billions of euros illegally leaving the US and European economies towards fiscal havens where they pay no taxes and there's no accountability whatsoever. Want to fight terrorism? End the fiscal havens.
Fiscal havens played a very important part in creating the current economical crisis. Yet, the chicken shit governments of G8 and the world financial institutions haven't done shit to end this, besides a few cosmetic tricks.
This is like people in a small town protesting against the local brothel, but they all go there on Saturday night.
If I don't pay my taxes, the IRS will make my life miserable, they will come to my house and take my furniture, my car, etc. But Joe the CEO can transfer his savings to the Conga Bonga Islands through book manipulation and happily wait for retirement without paying a dime in taxes. And his money can be invested in drugs or weapons, there's no way to trace it.
Re:The EU is a totalitarian government (Score:4, Insightful)
Could we please stop spreading this myth? (Score:5, Insightful)
You know, the whole point behind those attacks was not to destroy the West, or wipe us off the map, or any of that rubbish.
The main demands the Al Quaida originally made were that US forces withdraw from Saudi Arabia, and for Palestine to be recognised and given equal support to Israel. That was before every fundamentalist nutjob in Islam was invoking the name Al Quaida though ( PDF here [fas.org], for reference).
I'm sorry to say, no matter what the media would have you believe, these guys aren't SPECTRE. They just want to be left alone. Throw rocks at a wasps' nest, and what do you expect to happen?
Re:The EU is a totalitarian government (Score:1, Insightful)
Yes, and isn't it ironic that the European Constitution, rejected by so many of the Europeans, was about to change that? (Linky [bbc.co.uk])
No, it wasn't. At least not according to the German Constitutional Court [bundesverf...gericht.de] (text in English).
Re:U.S. government invades and bombs for profit. (Score:4, Insightful)
Whatever the US did earlier, which is interesting in itself, something does not compute right now.
When 9/11 attacks happened, the US let terrorists profit from the future they had subscribed in abnormal quantity. Then US come to EU monitoring our activity? Medice, cura te ipsum.
We are monitoring ordinary citizens and let corporations make business in fiscal paradises. This is a joke.
Re:The EU is a totalitarian government (Score:1, Insightful)
which is ignored by the EU commision (that actually has the EU power at the moment).
Well, if it would be only ignored by the Commission it still would not happen. The Commission does not have the power for that. As the article states:
"On Monday, foreign ministers of European Union member states gave their approval for the European Commission and Sweden, which currently holds the six-month rotating EU presidency, to negotiate an agreement with Washington..."
So, it was approved by the governments of the 27 member states.
Re:U.S. government invades and bombs for profit. (Score:5, Insightful)
Someday U.S. taxpayers will have to pay-off that enormous debt, which is now the equivalent of $105,000 hanging over every home.
It would be nice if our politicians would grow-up, stop acting like teenagers with credit cards, and reduce spending. But no, instead they want to saddle us with a giant Uncle Sam healthcare program that we can not afford. By the end of Obama's term, that debt will have risen to ~$150,000 per home.
Pretty soon the entire U.S. will be like bankrupt California.
Re:The EU is a totalitarian government (Score:1, Insightful)
So, it was approved by the governments of the 27 member states.
It wasn't approved by "the governments"; just a few selected representatives (in this case the foreign and interior ministers IIRC).
These exact appointed represantatives who approved it, will turn to their citizens and say: "We dislike this too. Very very much! Really! But the EU demands it so we have to comply."
It's the wet dream of every secretary of the interior. More government power without even having to bother with those dumb citizens or the opposition.
Re:Its OK though (Score:5, Insightful)
>>>how long before US considers perfectly legal and reasonable acts to be terrorist acts??
If we deposit $10,000 or more in an account, the government makes a note of it and investigates. One local fellow was depositing $9900, $9500, $9600 in cash in order to avoid that requirement, but a suspicious Nazi... er, teller reported him anyway because he was "close enough". Then the stormtroopers... er, FBI arrested him for trying to avoid the $10,000 legel requirement.
This is the kind of society that the scared American people have created. "Any who would give up Essential liberty for temporary security deserves neither." - Benjamin Franklin. All these problems would disappear if we simply enforced the Constitution as written. No warrant; no search of people or their effects (papers/bank accounts).
Re:Its OK though (Score:3, Insightful)
The agenda is to track everyone, politicians are colluding to make the world a worse place to live.
Why did the EU roll over for the US over flight passenger information, and require no such data to flow back to Europe of US citizens so THEY know how it feels to be treated like a criminal on entry to a country? Why are the EU so hell bent on everyone in Europe having ID cards, there are countries like the UK that have no ID cards, but attempts to roll them out to everyone. Why are the EU so desperate to track drivers around Europe under pretext of road tolls / pricing? Why do the Americans have any access at all to the banking of individuals? Why does the UK have an extradition treaty with the US that allows the US to grab anyone it wants "legally" without any evidence, but the UK can't extradite from the US terrorists it has? The US is not liked as it once was because they treat tourists etc. like criminals, and is why many now refuse to visit so the US looses tourist money. The US has the international reputation now of being a loose cannon, what they say goes and screw your objections.
Re:Its OK though (Score:4, Insightful)
Actually America, as conceived, is not about freedom. It's about the individual and protection of his rights from overarching, overbearing politicians sick with power. That's why these individual rights (ownership of self, right to self-protection, right to privacy, et cetera) are encoded into the U.S. and 50 State Constitutions - to block the government and keep it under control, so the individual can live a life without being hassled at every turn.
Unfortunately in their rush to control everything like petit-dictators, the Congresscritters have decided to ignore the Supreme Laws. The phrase "shall be secure in their persons and papers" means nothing if Congress can look at your bnk account whenever they feel like it. "The two worst diseases are avarice and ambition - love of money and love of power. Leaders suffer from both." - Benjamin Franklin
Re:Its OK though (Score:3, Insightful)
Fiscal havens played a very important part in creating the current economical crisis.
Could you explain why do you think that?
Re:Its OK though (Score:3, Insightful)
Yes, it's all down to tax havens. All the biggest problems in the current crisis are down to those damnable tax havens and hedge funds etc. Like the following, all HQ'ed and "regulated" in well known tax havens:
Institutions in developed countries were directly responsible for the crisis but Tax havens payed a very important role in hiding transactions. [ft.com]
Yes, if only those damn tax havens listed above were banned from doing business, the financial crisis would not have happened. If only banks were forced to be in "well regulated" onshore locations where there is accountability, there would be no recession
Now, that's just silly. When did exactly I said such?
And as we all know, bankers, lawyers and their associates in major cities are all highly ethical people
They're all greedy heartless bloodsucking motherfuckers but there is still some supervision and vigilance in regulated markets that prevents them to directly finance criminal activities. Of course, with the massive deregulation that took place in the latest years, accountability and responsibility are not in great shape.
Swiss bankers or lawyers in the Cayman Islands are just fine with you calling them up and asking them to transfer funds to your friend "Omar" in Tashkent with no explanation or supporting documents
Yes, they are. That's their job. That's what the fiscal havens are for. And not only Omar, you can also transfer a few millions to your friend Pablo in Colombia, or to your friend Alphonse in Congo.
Don't be naive. The underground economy worldwide moves billions every year. Where do you think the money financing drug, weapons, etc. comes from? Do the criminals/warlords/terrorists pull it from their asses? No, it comes from the legal economy, through fiscal havens.
Re:Could we please stop spreading this myth? (Score:3, Insightful)
My intention was not to make them sound reasonable, I'm sorry if it came across that way. I was just trying to point out that in this situation, as in so many other things, there's no clearly defined good or evil. They're not trying to reign down destruction on our heads because of our decadent Western ways. But that's the sense you pick up from so many news reports and editorials.
The GP had an element of that and I guess that's what I was objecting to.
Re:Its OK though (Score:4, Insightful)
If the Founding Fathers could see what became of their country, they'd probably sigh and grab their guns with a "ok, boys, time to start over".
Re:Its OK though (Score:3, Insightful)
Quite true. Until not so long ago, even after the year 2001, I spent about a month per year in the US. You know, visiting people, traveling around, meeting important folks I haven't seen, BlackHat LV being a corner point most of the time. I haven't been for about four years now. Instead I follow the VB con around, as long as it avoids the US.
Reason? I don't want my laptop being searched, a collection of 0day trojans being found and, besides being questioned why those exist on there, possibly being held liable because some dufus security moron executed one of them on the airport network.
Meet the new boss... (Score:3, Insightful)
I will give President Change-you-can-believe-in some points for consistency. He voted to keep FISA in place, and loved the warrantless wiretaps. Mr. Obama speaks better than Bush, comes across as less abrasive, and seems to care more about the common man. Where it counts, however, he is still a power-freak who wants access to as much of your data as he can, just like Bush. All politicians suck.
wrong (Score:1, Insightful)
you frame it as if al qaeda is a defensive organization, that somebody, the west, went in and stirred up trouble, implying that al qaeda is the fault of the west
al qaeda is an ethnocentric fundamentalist initiative, created by the middle east. you cannot possible hold the west responsible for chinese ultranationalism or russian ultranationalism. so why you would hold it responsible for arabic ethnocetrism?
this logic is broken: "the west did {xyz} bad thing in the middle east. therefore, every single bad person from the middle east is the respnsibility of the west"
here's a similarity: "al qaeda bombed the world trade center. therefore, george bush and dick cheney are the fault of al qaeda" this is of course bullshit. but its the same reasoning you use to attribute accountability and responsibility for the existence of al qaeda. al qaeda is a creation of the cultures of the middle east. period
Re:Its OK though (Score:3, Insightful)
Ok, I see it now. The article seems to imply (between much irrelevant filler...) that some of those highly speculative hedge funds also operate in tax havens.
Yeah, it's just the Financial Times and the guy is only a professor, so it must be all bullshit.
Therefore tax havens must be responsible for the crisis.
Bombing me with strawman arguments may seem fun, but gets old pretty fast.
Re:U.S. government invades and bombs for profit. (Score:3, Insightful)
>>>billions spent per day in Iraq - and you blame it on helping people who need hospital treatment?
It's actually 0.9 trillion total cost. And yes the war in Iraq was just as much a waste as the proposed Uncle Sam healthcare (which will cost ~12 trillion per decade).
We need to STOP SPENDING.
Get it?
If you're carrying a debt of $105,000 per home, and expected to be $220,000 by 2020, you don't just keep spending more money and digging the whole deeper. You stop spending. Judas Priest. How much more obvious can it be?
Besides there are only 8-9 million people who want health insurance, but don't have it*. We can find a way to help that small 2% of the population without forcing the other 98% into an Uncle Sam monopoly. Example: Extend the welfare program to also include hospital costs. WE NEED TO SPEND WISELY AND RATIONALLY because if we don't, we're going to go bankrupt.
*
* I'm one of those who doesn't have it & doesn't want it. In fact there are 17 million Americans who earn more than $50,000 and therefore could easily afford the weekly $30-40 cost, but choose not to buy insurance. That's called freedom of choice.
Re:U.S. government invades and bombs for profit. (Score:3, Insightful)
On top of that, add in another $75-90 trillion is in owed obligations for Medicare and Social Security. Unless you're willing to cut either, that's real debt too. Just because it isn't due today doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It starts coming due in 7 years (2016 for Medicare, 2017 for Social Security). So, the reality is, right now, every PERSON owes about $280k in outstanding debt and obligations on behalf of the governent... or more than $1 million for a family of 4.
Medicare is hemmoraging money left and right, yet we're told how efficient it is. The same people that provide you hospitals like Walter Reed are now going to guarantee your health care. The same people that tap your phone lines now want to control your medical history and what treatments you can receive. As an added bonus, it's only going to cost us trillions more.
You can try to minimize the debt all you want. Government exists to protect our rights, not to be used as a lever to take something away from someone else for the benefit of another. You may have no problem bankrupting your great grandkids for your own selfish needs, but maybe your grandkids should have a say over what they're saddled with.
Way back in January 1776, Thomas Paine wrote:
PS - while you complain about people scare-mongering about health care rationing (which WILL happen), you're busy scare-mongering about how the current system is guaranteed to bankrupt everyone to get a bandaid. It doesn't... yes, it does bankrupt some people, but we're talking about a fraction of 1% of the people that have their lives ruined by the system. Under ObamaCare, it isn't your wealth that limits your health, it's a faceless bureaucrat that you will never meet that will decide whether or not you're worth enough to society to save. I'm not sure why you think that's any better.