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Comments: 198 +- Your Rights Online: Bars' Scanning of ID Violates BC Privacy Laws on Friday July 24, @03:46PM
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by
kdawson
on Friday July 24, @03:46PM
from the drinking-in-private dept.
from the drinking-in-private dept.
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AnonymousIslander writes "The Information and Privacy Commissioner for the Province of British Columbia has ruled that electronic scanning of driver's licenses (and similar forms of ID) as a condition of entering a bar or nightclub is a violation of BC's Personal Information Privacy Act. The decision (PDF), while dealing with one specific club, will still have ramifications across the entire province. It is not known if the nightclub in question will attempt to appeal the decision in court. A similar decision was reached last year in Alberta.
The system in question is known as BarWatch, and has been the target of criticism by many for a number of years. Despite this, a number of bars/nightclubs and restaurants in communities across Canada have installed similar systems, and just days before this decision came down there were calls for the expansion of BarWatch in Victoria to cover restaurants and other establishments serving the post-bar crowds." Similar systems are in use across the US, as we have discussed.
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Liability (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Liability (Score:5, Interesting)
Why did bars think this system was a necessity in the first place?
Because those boxes store the personal information of the IDs that are scanned, usually in an XLS file which are easily shared across businesses or used for selling information to third parties--that's why.
Parent
Re:Liability (Score:5, Informative)
Parent
Re:Liability (Score:4, Insightful)
So it has nothing to do with trying to enforce drinking ages. Instead it is just more "paper's please" government tracking of citizens.
I am sure that will make everyone there feel even better about being branded cattle...
Parent
Re: (Score:2, Informative)
So it has nothing to do with trying to enforce drinking ages. Instead it is just more "paper's please" government tracking of citizens.
I am sure that will make everyone there feel even better about being branded cattle...
Nope, that all came after the Privacy Commissioner did his investigation. Originally the police were all about this how it would help them track down gangs and the clubs were all about how this would help them fend off repeat trouble makers.
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
It's mostly to do with Asian and East Indian gangs, and it's only in certain, known bars where they hang out (bars that have "gone Asian", in local parlance). Before the mass immigration of the '90s, stuff like this was unknown here, and we existed in a naively happy bubble.
And this is not a troll, by the way. BC has changed a lot, and not for the better, even though it's "evil" to say so.
- posting anon to avoid the beating I'll get from PC people
Re:Liability (Score:5, Informative)
Many Greater Vancouver residents blame certain visible minorities for most of the crimes in their communities, but police and academics say the statistical evidence contradicts such racial stereotypes.
Nearly two-thirds of respondents to an Ipsos Reid poll believe some ethnic groups are more responsible for crime than others, and they put Indo-Canadian and Asians at the top of their lists....
In an interview Tuesday, Vancouver Police Insp. Kash Heed, commanding officer of the department's district 3 -- southeast Vancouver -- said actual statistics show the reverse of the poll findings.
"In the Lower Mainland, the majority of crimes are committed by Caucasians," he said.
http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/story.html?id=6e62449a-b98a-4387-ad58-bf41461a1048&k=41287
Parent
Re:Liability (Score:4, Interesting)
The ID scan itself is already of shaky legal status, but the most troubling issue here is that the ID information from the scan (name, address, etc) is retained by the club in a private database.
I have received junk mail as result of my ID being scanned at a night club in PA. Luckily that night club has since closed and I no longer receive it. Ironically, they had to close because of fines from serving too many underage drinkers over time. They also lost business because of regular police raids. Who wants to keep going to a club where there buzz is killed from a police raid.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
>>>The ID scan is to identify persons known to police in a database and refuse them services
Illegal search by the government without warrant.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Illegal search by the government without warrant.
Only if the clubs in BC were run by the government, and the card was not surrendered voluntarily.
So how does a country club work, legally? (Score:4, Insightful)
Apparently I can't just walk into any ol' country club. I have to show my membership card. I get my membership card by applying. Part of the application process is showing some form of ID, another part is laying down a bunch of moneys, being in good standing, blabla.
How come that is legal, then?
As a result - and I know the answer is 'no', but I'm curious as to -why- it is 'no' - couldn't any ol' bar simply offer 'guest membership' by means of, say, a stamp / wrist band, where the 'membership process' includes showing some form of ID, costs the patron, say, $2 (which goes toward a complimentary membership drink), and the membership duration lasting the entirety of the patron's stay?
Parent
Re:So how does a country club work, legally? (Score:5, Insightful)
Apparently I can't just walk into any ol' country club. I have to show my membership card. I get my membership card by applying. Part of the application process is showing some form of ID, another part is laying down a bunch of moneys, being in good standing, blabla.
How come that is legal, then?
As a result - and I know the answer is 'no', but I'm curious as to -why- it is 'no' - couldn't any ol' bar simply offer 'guest membership' by means of, say, a stamp / wrist band, where the 'membership process' includes showing some form of ID, costs the patron, say, $2 (which goes toward a complimentary membership drink), and the membership duration lasting the entirety of the patron's stay?
Part of the answer is, we give country clubs far less grief than they're due, because many of their members are influential. And they still catch hell when they enforce membership rules that are very obviously racist, though that happens less often than you might think.
However, in this specific case, you're comparing apples and oranges - the situation in BC is not akin to a country club barring non-members. Once the law gets involved in a situation like this (which it did, since they were tying the scans to police databases), the system becomes subject to legal oversight. Cops, legislators and the like are bound by higher laws concerning basic rights for the people, which were very obviously being violated here.
Parent
Re:So how does a country club work, legally? (Score:4, Informative)
Legally, the difference between a bar and a country club is that the bar is what is frequently referred to as a semi-public space [wikipedia.org]. That is, it is private property, but is open to the general public. Restaurants, shops, etc. typically fall into this category.
Owners of semi-public spaces do have some rights to control their property (e.g. enforcing a rule that they'll kick you out of the store if you don't buy anything, or a movie theater not allowing kids into a theater hall that is currently showing an R-rated film). However, they have fewer rights over the property than owners of private spaces do (e.g. they can't prevent someone from entering solely based on their race).
A country club is typically a fully private space--while there are procedures for gaining access, the general public is excluded. A bar is a semi-public space--there is a general expectation that it is "open to the public" (subject to legal age restrictions). Your proposal of "membership" might be seen as an attempt to make a bar a letter-of-the-law private space. IANAL, but I'd expect it to fail in one of two ways:
1) Someone could legitimately argue that the temporary "membership" is basically a farce and the bar is still a semi-public space, since the general public can--and, indeed, is desired to--still access it by gaining trivial membership.
2) There may be zoning restrictions involved. Bars are frequently located in commercial zones; cities may require any businesses operating in the area to be semi-public.
Parent
Re:Here is the local media story (Score:3, Informative)
Re: (Score:2)
that should be as far as it needs to go
Yup. And most bars know that as far as I know. This is how under-aged people get in so easily, and bars get away with it. They check the age, and the quality of the card. They don't really care if it is real or not.
These guys scanning are scanning to retain information. If they weren't, then they're working too hard for no return.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
How about issues like people on parole who are not allowed to enter bars? It seems to me that there is no downside to anyone having information and it is not just bars that should be using this technology. How about gas stations running checks on people that buy gasoline? How many felons could be caught by use of such technology?
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Between a rock and a hard place? (Score:4, Insightful)
Bars personally really don't give a shit about the client's ID. They are _forced_ to be uber diligant about this by the government, because, if God forbid, they let an 18 year old get a beer they face anything between losing their license and jail time. Governments also consistently ruled that if someone gives the barman a fake ID and they fall for it, it's still the barman's fault and not the fakers. So obviously they have to implement fascist mechanisms of ID checking, otherwise they'd be forced out of business by the government.
Now the same government goes around and says their ID checking is too strict (while obviously not alleviating any of the burdens which it imposed on bars on checking IDs in the first place). Hey government geniuses, if you'd like bar owners to not violate their client's privacy, maybe relaxing your age-proving rules would be a good place to start?
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They are _forced_ to be uber diligant about this by the government, because, if God forbid, they let an 18 year old get a beer they face anything between losing their license and jail time. Governments also consistently ruled that if someone gives the barman a fake ID and they fall for it, it's still the barman's fault and not the fakers.
Please cite the relevant law or court ruling.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
http://www.eia.gov.bc.ca/lclb/licensing/laws.htm#id_requirements
1/2 true.
2 pieces of government ID required to enter any bar, there are signs up ALL over the place in BC telling you about this.
Minor with fake id, $115 fine for the minor.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
You've really never heard of strict liability in relation to the underage consumption of alcohol? Have you heard of google?
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=%22strict+liability%22+sale+alcohol [lmgtfy.com]
Here's one example, from California, in the first page of Google hits:
http://law.onecle.com/california/business/25658.html [onecle.com]
Which was enacted in 1998 and upheld in court by 2002.
And that's far from the only example. Many jurisdictions have even enacted strict liability laws ag
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Just use Google:
http://www.dailyillini.com/news/campus/2009/06/02/bars-pay-price-for-underage-drinking [dailyillini.com]
http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20282532,00.html [people.com]
http://hawkonomics.blogspot.com/2009/05/iowa-city-bar-restrictions.html [blogspot.com]
And that was just the beginning. Bars get shut down for serving underage people. It doesn't matter if they check the IDs or not - if they are fooled by a fake ID they can be shut down. It is almost never the underage person's fault, and even when they are charged, it is a fine an
Re:Between a rock and a hard place? (Score:4, Funny)
Perhaps I should have been more clear about what to cite.
None of those links are relevant to this case, as IL, NY, and IA are not in British Columbia, Canada.
Parent
Re:Between a rock and a hard place? (Score:5, Funny)
[citation_needed]
http://static.howstuffworks.com/gif/chevrolet-citation-3.jpg [howstuffworks.com]
Parent
Re:Between a rock and a hard place? (Score:4, Insightful)
Parent
Re:Between a rock and a hard place? (Score:4, Informative)
Governments also consistently ruled that if someone gives the barman a fake ID and they fall for it, it's still the barman's fault
[citation_needed]
http://www.kansascity.com/637/story/1322917.html?storylink=omni_popular [kansascity.com]
Holiday was fined $500 by the Kansas Division of Alcoholic Beverage Control. His customer was arrested in March 2008 for being a minor in possession of alcohol and for presenting police with a fake driver's license. He paid $452 in fines and court fees.
Holiday being the bar owner.
P.S. You really should check out this new site called Google [google.com]. It lets you confirm such simple queries in less time than it takes to type the question (0.12 seconds in this case) instead of asking on a forum and having to wait minutes to hours for a reply.
Parent
Re:Between a rock and a hard place? (Score:4, Funny)
Since when did Kansas City become a part of Canada?
P.S. You should check out this new site called Google Maps [slashdot.org]. It lets you find things geographically (hint: Canada is North... that's up).
Parent
Leads to relaxation of underage drinking laws? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
Verify My Ass. This is data mining pure & simp (Score:2)
Privacy indeed (Score:5, Insightful)
Really? You mean that keeping records of people intending to drink alcohol, the time, the location, who you might be going with, and hold onto that information for some unknown time, and share that information with unknown people or organizations.... you mean doing that could be considered a violation of an individual's privacy??
It still amazes me that people that live in countries that supposedly support an individual's rights allow themselves to be treated like branded cattle this way.
To the legislators that create such stuff, and to the people who support such legislation: Keep on waxing that slippery slope...
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Hey, if I am running a bar I am scanning/Xeroxing the license. If you get charged with serving the underage, and you *don't* have a scan, you are dead in the water. You need proof that you had an ID that checked out. Period. If you don't want to provide an ID, there are plenty of places to get drunk aside from bars.
Brett
bar needs only one yes/no: is person = legal (Score:2, Insightful)
a bar needs one question answered:
is person older than legal drinking age. period.
they dont need name, age, address, hair color, who you arrived with, weight, etc.
Re:bar needs only one yes/no: is person = legal (Score:4, Interesting)
hair color...weight
Yes, they do. In fact, they need an actual photo of you. So they can confirm that you are the person on the card.
Now, what should happen is that your address shouldn't be on the driver's license at all.
The police should be able to pull that out of the DL database, and no one else has the right to know where you live. That, frankly, is an idiotic holdover from when police did not have databases, and should have gone away mid-nineties. (If someone has a legitimate need to know where you live, for example if went to a bar and skipped on on your tab...that's what small claims court is for.)
Same with age, that should not be on a license, except underaged people should have that clearly marked on their DL. Although it should just be an 'Under 18' or 'Under 21' unless they specifically want their birthday on there. Same with elderly people, who could have 'Over 55' or whatever on their license if they want.
Parent
I wouldn't go in anyway (Score:4, Funny)
I am not a number, I am a free customer!
You will treat me as such, or I will take my custom elsewhere.
What's the problem? (Score:4, Insightful)
I'll support this decision when the laws concerning kids change.
Here are two dangerous scenarios, both of which take place in an age-restricted venue.
#1) You go home with the cute girl. You don't worry about this person's age since the legal age of the venue is 18 (Quebec), 19 (rest of Canada), or 21 (USA). Well, turns out you were wrong, and now you're a branded sex offender for life. Your only recourse is to sue the bar to oblivion for not doing its job filtering out the kids, forcing the bar to start being more strict, including scanning IDs.
#2) You just got paid, feeling generous, go out to a bar, vibe is good and everyone is having a fun time. Your table of friends somehow merges with another table of strangers and everyone is getting along. So, you buy shots of vodka for everyone in celebration of such a great night. Only then, the police do a spot check on the bar, find out you bought alcohol for a minor, and get thrown in jail. Your only recourse is to sue the bar to oblivion for not doing its job filtering out the kids, forcing the bar to start being more strict, including scanning IDs.
When you're in an age restricted venue, that does not allow you to be innocent when you do something that somehow "violates" a minor that's also in the same venue. When the laws that facilitate this "guilt" change, then maybe I'll care a little more about the "privacy implications" of a bouncer being able to truly verify the age of an incoming customer.
Re:What's the problem? (Score:4, Informative)
I'll support this decision when the laws concerning kids change.
Here are two dangerous scenarios, both of which take place in an age-restricted venue.
#1) You go home with the cute girl. You don't worry about this person's age since the legal age of the venue is 18 (Quebec), 19 (rest of Canada), or 21 (USA). Well, turns out you were wrong, and now you're a branded sex offender for life. Your only recourse is to sue the bar to oblivion for not doing its job filtering out the kids, forcing the bar to start being more strict, including scanning IDs.
In Canada feel free to have sex with any girl who's over 16. But you'll be thrown in jail if you take photos. For photos, you've got to wait until she's 19. But sex, no problem at 16! Oh and they just moved that up from 14 a couple of years ago...
Parent
Re: (Score:2)
#1) It can happen anywhere, but it should never happen in an age-restricted venue. You should be completely free of guilt because you should assume that anyone in an age-restricted venue is an "adult". That is simply not the case.
#2) The bar didn't serve the minor, you paid for it, the bar served you and then you passed it on to a minor, and in this scenario, you did so for free.
Interesting Comparison to Online Privacy (Score:3, Interesting)
Most of the comments on this story so far (about a dozen) are in support of customer privacy.
In contrast, last week, most of the comments on a similar story about Canadian privacy law were in favor of the business. In that case, though, the business itself was online (Facebook), whereas in this case, the business is brick & mortar & alcohol, and only the data is online.
http://yro.slashdot.org/story/09/07/17/1346209/Facebook-Violates-Canadian-Privacy-Law [slashdot.org]
Do you, the Slashdot reader, have a different opinion about these two cases because of the case differences? Or did the posters of all of last Friday's comments go on vacation this week?
Re: (Score:2)
Yeah, Facebook sucks and is very morons, and scanning peoples' IDs at bars sucks and is nothing more than a blatant and liberty-hating attempt to destroy our rights.
Re: (Score:2)
Aren't the bar patrons voluntarily supplying their personal information when they hand their ID over to the bouncer with a scanner?
Re: (Score:2)
You cannot get into the bar in most cases without handing it over to be scanned. To reference the comparison to online privacy, you do not need to provide your driver license number (or anything personal info) to FB to "get in". Also, FB, in a perfect world, would be be able to use that information to help you relate to people, while all the bar is using it for is to log people'
Re: (Score:2)
Ya know some of those scanners can be used to steal your credit card numbers. So you hand them your ID with your social security number encoded on the strip. Then at the end of the night you hand them your credit card which also gets swiped.
Then the Bubba the bouncer or Bert the barman put these two pieces of data together and steal your Identity.
Its not about AGE restrictions! (Score:5, Informative)
Some of you are perhaps missing some information regarding this case.
The id's were being taken not because of age issues, it was due to a rash of gang violence in vancouver and the lower mainland of BC. The bars decided to start scanning peoples IDs and running them against a police/RCMP database. This in turn, it was hoped, would keep people with active warrants and such from frequenting bars and causing a ruckus.
As other have pointed out, it has been somewhat effective as there has not been any shooting in clubs downtown (insert tiger rock analogy here). The downside is that all these innocent people have to submit to police state type actions in order to go to MOST bars in downtown vancouver (mostly on granville st, club district).
I myself have been denied entrance for asking too many questions regarding data storage policies and complaining about the system. Most people do not seem to care and will hand over their DL as well as be photographed. I have watched many people hand over ID without a second thought. They scan the mag stripe and put it into their private database. How long do they keep the data? I do not know, as I was escorted out for asking that and other questions.
THis is a real win for privacy in BC. If you read the CBC fourms however, you can see that many so called citizens do not care two shits about privacy as long as they have their preacious illusion of security.
Keep the Idiots out. (Score:2, Insightful)
The system is designed to inform all bars who have the s
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
And what happens when some bartender/server/bar owner has a grudge against someone and throws them on the banned list out of spite? Now somebody who is perfectly innocent can't get into any of the bars in Victoria.
WTF.....? (Score:3, Interesting)
I've worked at a couple of bars here in the US and we scanned ids. But, the scanners we used were small, portable handheld units that just read the magstripe to see in the data contained in the magstripe matched the information printed on the front of the card. The only contact with the outside world that the unit had was the tiny AC power cord used to charge the batteries.
I can see the benefits of scanning cards, as it is very easy to duplicate DLs. However, I don't see how you need to completely read someone's info and feed it into an online database just to check their age.
In the US, if a counterfeit ID that can fool any reasonable person is used to illegally purchase alcohol, and the bar serves the alcohol, the person who made the purchase is held fully accountable, and not the bar. This protects bars from having to worry about every single ID being counterfeit, as counterfeiters are becoming increasingly sophisticated.
I think the system of electronic scanners that just verify magstripe data with printed data on the front of the card is sufficient, since a counterfeit card that looks legit AND fools scanners will also fool any resonable person.
I don't see where Little Brother Canada thinks that everybody should have to punch in to a database whenever they want to go out for a night on the town.
This sounds like a great idea... (Score:3, Funny)
After all, it's not as though I've never encountered a bouncer who's a rage-driven, 'roid-crazed whack job with delusions of adequacy, a two-figure IQ, and an ironclad belief that every woman in the world desperately wants access to his shrunken little dick. Exactly the kind of person I want having access to my sister's personal information. And if there's ever been a "security system" in a bar that couldn't be defeated in five minutes by a bartender with a Grade 8 education and a weakness for white powder, I've yet to see it. So I wouldn't be all that confident that the twitchy little guy in the corner with the laptop and the Klingon Vengeance Blade isn't paging through the personal data of everybody on the premises even as I try to hide my "Trekkies Are Assholes" t-shirt.
The day I surrender the contents of anything on a mag strip to the lack-wits, thieves and bottom feeders who infest your average bar is the day I move to Iran and stand on a street corner with a megaphone and invite Ali Khamenei to blow me.